New wood floors & speaker spikes

[bdiament]

For vertical isolation, Barry recommends a board of piece of plywood placed on a lightly inflated bicycle inner tube. He places the Hip Joint ball "bearings" on that. BTW, it is interesting that the reviewer in this review prefers to use the Rollerblocks under the Symposium platform, despite the protests from the manufacturer.

 

I'm really curious to try it out Barry's advice, and I definitely will try it on my DAC and amp. However, I feel very uneasy about putting my speakers on top of metal balls. It would seem to me that there's a great risk of the speakers slowly working their way off the balls, unless the floor is perfectly even, which no floor is. Some months ago, I went to a Nordost accessories demo, and during the discussion of their Sort Füt, the representative stressed that they couldn't recommend any kind of speaker support that wasn't screwed into the speaker cabinet, because the vibrations from the cabinet could make it travel on the supports, perhaps to the point of tipping over. The risk of that would seem to be particularly high with metal balls as contact points.

 

Hi Jens,

 

A properly designed roller bearing has the ball sitting in a "bowl". As such, when it is displaced, it re-centers automatically.

The only danger of speakers coming off the roller bearing balls is if they are pushed off. This is why I recommend folks placing speakers (or any other gear) on roller bearings, be watchful if there are small children, pets, or unwary guests near the gear. Other than that, I've had my speakers "afloat" on roller bearings for many years and there has never been any issue.

 

The speakers do not move on the balls, as long as the balls are free to roll within the bowls. (A speaker resting directly on the roller bearings would ultimately inhibit free motion of the ball. So, I place the speakers atop a platform of plywood sitting atop a smooth marble tile. The tile is placed smooth side down.) The whole idea of roller bearings, unlike the non-moving sort of footer you described, is that all motion goes to the ball, nothing else.

 

I have my subwoofers afloat the same way. With them and with the main pair, having been on roller bearings for many years now, I can shake the walls with AC/DC, yet the subs as well as the main pair remain exactly where I placed them when I first put them on the rollers.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[AnotherSpin]

I'm really curious to try it out Barry's advice, and I definitely will try it on my DAC and amp. However, I feel very uneasy about putting my speakers on top of metal balls. It would seem to me that there's a great risk of the speakers slowly working their way off the balls, unless the floor is perfectly even, which no floor is.

 

I had very similar fears. My speakers are tall (160 cm) and narrow (30x25 cm). It was very difficult to believe they would sit safely on bowls/balls sets. After I put sets under the speakers I was pretty much surprised to find out that they not only "float" freely, but stay comfortably stable. I do not think original spikes provided anything more stable.

[YashN]

What do I put under my speaker spikes? Do I need some expensive sonically correct crap? Is there any way I can work duct tape into the solution?

 

Until Barry's first post in the thread, there seems to be a lot of misconception about what you need to do. I had a lot of the same questions last year when I was working in improving the sound in my system. The thing is: it was difficult to find a definite solution as there is conflicting information around the web on the subject.

 

This is what I found out:

 

If you have a concrete floor, you want the speaker spiked to the floor.

 

It is the opposite with a wooden floor: you do not want the speaker vibrations to be transmitted through the wooden floor and make the latter resonate, and hence affect the frequency response.

 

Hence, for wooden floors, what I did for my bookshelf speakers was to build speaker stands, and underneath the base, put rubber isolation pads at each corner.

 

There are probably other means of vibration in this case.

 

So, you could either remove the spikes and then install rubber isolation pads underneath you speakers, or else spike the speakers into heavy stone slabs, which themselves rest on rubber pads before the wooden floor. It's all about damping speaker cabinet resonance and not propagating that resonance to a vibrating surface which would damage the frequency response.

[bdiament]

Until Barry's first post in the thread, there seems to be a lot of misconception about what you need to do. I had a lot of the same questions last year when I was working in improving the sound in my system. The thing is: it was difficult to find a definite solution as there is conflicting information around the web on the subject.

 

This is what I found out:

 

If you have a concrete floor, you want the speaker spiked to the floor.

 

It is the opposite with a wooden floor: you do not want the speaker vibrations to be transmitted through the wooden floor and make the latter resonate, and hence affect the frequency response.

 

Hence, for wooden floors, what I did for my bookshelf speakers was to build speaker stands, and underneath the base, put rubber isolation pads at each corner.

 

There are probably other means of vibration in this case.

 

So, you could either remove the spikes and then install rubber isolation pads underneath you speakers, or else spike the speakers into heavy stone slabs, which themselves rest on rubber pads before the wooden floor. It's all about damping speaker cabinet resonance and not propagating that resonance to a vibrating surface which would damage the frequency response.

 

Hi YashN,

 

If, like me, your concern is vibrations *entering* the speaker (and its crossover), not vibrations *from* the speaker, then the type of floor does not matter. I've heard speaker isolation work wonders in rooms with suspended wooden floors as well as rooms that sit on concrete pads. (Interestingly to me, Carl Marchisotto is now building roller bases into his Nola speakers.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Encore]

Thanks, Barry and Anotherspin. That cleared it up for me. Intellectually, I still find it hard to imagine that the speakers stay on the ball bearings, whether there is plywood-and-marble plate between or not. But I'll take your word for it :-)

 

I was out today to see if could find any suitable balls and egg holders. Not so easy, so I may just take a chance with the Symposium Rollerblocks.

[Jabs1542]

And maybe not gravel under the speakers?!

 

Well played... But other than that it sounded great.

[YashN]

If, like me, your concern is vibrations *entering* the speaker (and its crossover), not vibrations *from* the speaker

 

This I certainly agree with as well.

 

then the type of floor does not matter. I've heard speaker isolation work wonders in rooms with suspended wooden floors as well as rooms that sit on concrete pads. (Interestingly to me, Carl Marchisotto is now building roller bases into his Nola speakers.)

 

These are very specific cases. You definitely do not want the wooden floor to resonate with the music... Most people in very cold countries will have normal wooden floorboards susceptible to vibrating with the speaker action, hence the need to dampen those.

[bdiament]

Hi YashN,

 

I've heard speakers on suspended wooden floors. Isolating the speaker makes for a great many benefits but in my experience, blocking vibrations from entering the speaker (and its crossover) far, far outweigh any concerns about the speakers energizing the floor. To the point where I don't consider the latter an issue.

 

My suggestion is to try proper isolation and hear for yourself, then draw your own conclusions. To my ears, the type of floor just doesn't matter.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[jamesg11]

Yep, think I'll look into trying some Townshend seismic bars - a bargain compared to Stillpoints, assuming the reality matches the hype ... Wonder if they ever turn up on the 'used' market ...

[miguelito]

I assume he does not have any cats.

I don't think so since his turntable was sitting on the floor. The apartment was soooo small, very japanese. Additionally he had two gorgeous pieces of equipment (this was May 1998, I was still in school, on an experiment in Tanashi, near Tokyo):

 

1- Lyra Connoiseur preamp: hand-built discrete solid state AIR DIAELECTRIC preamp. This means the component wires are twisted and soldered together in what looks like a tiny city of sorts, no circuit boards whatsoever - a thing of beauty - the cover was removed so I could see it all.

 

2- A massive prototype Sony SACD player - with the cover also removed - another thing of beauty. There were a few very shiny squares on the board that looked remarkably similar to the ones in the EmmLabs Dac2x/XDS1v2.

 

Turntable is all we listened to the entire afternoon. Cartridge was obviously Lyra, turntable was Immedia RPM (IIRC), phono pre was the Connosieur, amp I don't remember (solid state IIRC), and speakers I also don't remember but maybe Vienna acoustics or similar.

 

Also one clarification: I don't think there was any sand involved, the gravel was directly sitting in the wooden boxes.

[edo]

Thanks to this thread I took my speakers up off of the floor (a suspended wood floor) and isolated them with a hard maple platform on top of cork and foam. I noticed before that the entire floor was vibrating with the bass - in effect making my floor a subwoofer. Isolating the speakers really made the different instruments much more separated and clear. There is less bass boominess and the bass seems to be more impactful and tight. A very noticeable difference!

 

 

Didn't cost much either. I made the maple platforms from an old stump, got the cork isolators from a HVAC supply house and got the foam furniture sliders from a big box store. The brass weights were the most expensive part and I am not sure they are necessary but I had them so I figured why not throw them on there.

[Jud]

I don't think so since his turntable was sitting on the floor. The apartment was soooo small, very japanese. Additionally he had two gorgeous pieces of equipment (this was May 1998, I was still in school, on an experiment in Tanashi, near Tokyo):

 

 

The experiment didn't have anything to do with underground swimming pools, did it?

 

Edit: BTW, re the part of your note I snipped, just about all my cables use air dielectric.

[MrAcoustat]

What do I put under my speaker spikes? Do I need some expensive sonically correct crap? Is there any way I can work duct tape into the solution?

 

If you use speakers like these, you wont need spikes because there is no room for them.

[wgscott]

Almost there ...

 

[Paul R]

Beautiful!

 

I started some home projects with the sole intention if replacing some old carpet with wood floors... fixed just about everything else but that dratted old rug! Envy!!

[YashN]

Isolating the speaker makes for a great many benefits but in my experience, blocking vibrations from entering the speaker (and its crossover) far, far outweigh any concerns about the speakers energizing the floor. To the point where I don't consider the latter an issue.

 

My suggestion is to try proper isolation and hear for yourself, then draw your own conclusions. To my ears, the type of floor just doesn't matter.

 

These two effects, in and out, aren't mutually exclusive. In my rig, the speakers are already isolated from the wood floor through simple rubber pads. Consequently, the wooden floor does not resonate like before (you could feel it resonate with the bass with your feet but REW would show the frequency response interaction since part of the speaker cabinet reaction were transmitted to the floor and/or part of the sound was resonating with the floor), and hence don't mess up the frequency response, and neither can they transmit as much vibration to the speakers as before.

 

With a concrete floor, there's not much vibration to be transmitted either way: a concrete floor is too massive for that. The spikes are good in this situation for strong coupling so that the vibrations from the cabinet (or stand) dissipate as heat instead.

 

Your solution is good for studios or people who own their place and have large budgets. Mine is good for people who rent, have a smaller budget and envision DIY, and want to do casual but still aim for audiophile listening.

[wgscott]

Here is how it looked before (except the carpet got a lot worse in the mean time):

 

 

Here is how it looked when the previous owners were staging the house:

 

 

Maybe it is worse now. I think I have post-partum depression.

[Jud]

 

With a concrete floor, there's not much vibration to be transmitted either way: a concrete floor is too massive for that. The spikes are good in this situation for strong coupling so that the vibrations from the cabinet (or stand) dissipate as heat instead.

 

 

Somewhat surprisingly, not actually true. Was looking at a Canadian government design guide on subjects like keeping floor-transmitted noise out of neighbors' apartments earlier, that noted both wood and concrete floors transmitted vibration, but at different frequencies. It was a nice clear explanation, which, irritatingly, I cannot manage to find right now.

[YashN]

Somewhat surprisingly, not actually true. Was looking at a Canadian government design guide on subjects like keeping floor-transmitted noise out of neighbors' apartments earlier, that noted both wood and concrete floors transmitted vibration, but at different frequencies. It was a nice clear explanation, which, irritatingly, I cannot manage to find right now.

 

Ultimately, correct, but note that I didn't say that concrete floors do not transmit vibrations at all, it's just that within the context of audio, the resonance or vibrations are not consequential.

 

Hence why it is beneficial to spike the speaker cabinet to a concrete floor, because this way, you couple it to the floor, and although the cabinet may resonate on its own, once it's coupled to a much more massive surface like a concrete floor, a lot of that vibration is either dissipated through heat or you could say that the resonant frequency becomes so low that it is of no great effect for audio.

 

This leaves most of the energy coming from the driver to come through to your ears via the air rather than being spent with vibrations in the cabinet (or those pesky heavier vibrations from a wood floor), which is what we want: we want to ideally hear the driver do its work well.

[AnotherSpin]

I have concrete floor covered with ceramic tiles. Bowls/balls made dramatic improvement over original spikes supplied with speakers.

[Jabs1542]

Ultimately, correct, but note that I didn't say that concrete floors do not transmit vibrations at all, it's just that within the context of audio, the resonance or vibrations are not consequential.

 

Hmm... Much higher mass thus much harder to move - yes. But the density is much higher than wood so I suspect if you ever did manage to transfer any vibrations into concrete it would be at a higher frequency than wood. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe the frequency is well above the bass region of room modes - and of course higher frequencies transfer less energy.

[Paul R]

Hmm... Much higher mass thus much harder to move - yes. But the density is much higher than wood so I suspect if you ever did manage to transfer any vibrations into concrete it would be at a higher frequency than wood. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe the frequency is well above the bass region of room modes - and of course higher frequencies transfer less energy.

 

Almost any reputable concrete company can come out and give you an answer that details the resonant frequency of any concrete construction, like a slab or floor. It depends a lot on the type, shape, and construction of the concrete slab being investigated. I believe the answer might surprise you, and explains why isolation often works better - much better - than coupling.

 

You can usually calculate the figure pretty close too, without measuring. Most Civil Engineering textbooks contain the necessary calculations and tables.

 

-Paul

 

I just realized that sounded kind of snarky. Floors are usually designed to have a resonance above 3hz to make it safe for people to walk on. Dance floors and such, usually 8hz, to account for synchronized movement and so on. And of course, modern floors are usually damped to limit the issues.

 

Romans were very aware of this, which is why to this day, troops are taught how to "change step" when marching. Much easier on the bridges that way... -PR

[bdiament]

Hi YashN,

 

...With a concrete floor, there's not much vibration to be transmitted either way: a concrete floor is too massive for that. The spikes are good in this situation for strong coupling so that the vibrations from the cabinet (or stand) dissipate as heat instead.

 

The response of a concrete floor to the speakers is going to depend on what sort of bass (if any) the speakers are capable of producing.

The response of a concrete floor (or any floor really) to groundborne vibrations is to effectively transmit those vibrations to anything coupled to the floor.

 

Your solution is good for studios or people who own their place and have large budgets. Mine is good for people who rent, have a smaller budget and envision DIY, and want to do casual but still aim for audiophile listening.

 

My floor doesn't know if it is in a studio, if I own my home, or how much money I have in the bank. ;-}

My floor is connected to the ground, hence any vibrations in the ground will be transmitted to the floor and onward to anything connected to the floor. Doesn't matter what material the floor is made of or what its mass is. I've heard the same isolation techniques perform the same wonders with econo-systems in rental apartments.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[bdiament]

Hmm... Much higher mass thus much harder to move - yes. But the density is much higher than wood so I suspect if you ever did manage to transfer any vibrations into concrete it would be at a higher frequency than wood. And maybe that's a good thing, maybe the frequency is well above the bass region of room modes - and of course higher frequencies transfer less energy.

 

Hi Jabs1542,

 

Actually, it is the opposite. The high mass of a concrete floor means it will resonate at a much *lower* frequency. High mass is very effective at storing energy too, then releasing it after a delay.

 

With a system that truly reaches down to the bottom octave, it isn't so hard to energize a concrete floor. And like any floor connected to the ground, it provides a path for groundborne vibrations to get to whatever is coupled to the floor.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[Allan F]

Somewhat surprisingly, not actually true. Was looking at a Canadian government design guide on subjects like keeping floor-transmitted noise out of neighbors' apartments earlier, that noted both wood and concrete floors transmitted vibration, but at different frequencies. It was a nice clear explanation, which, irritatingly, I cannot manage to find right now.

 

Would this possibly be the guide you are referring to? http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/inpr/bude/himu/coedar/upload/Sound-Control-EN.pdf