New wood floors & speaker spikes

[miguelito]

Puncture the Queen...! How could you...?

I'm waiting for ISIS coins, they will be hard.

I'd rather have some members of congress there... but frankly i don't want them anywhere close to my home.

[RobbieC]

I'm more pissed off that he didn't tell me he did it than I am about the actual dent (shit happens). We're a repeat customer, etc. I'll do it after the floor is done.

 

There must be some universal law out there (meaning one named eponymously like Godwin's law or Murphy's law) saying that given access to your home workers will damage something every time.

[edo]

If it is truly just a dent then it should come out easily. I have used a damp cloth and iron over dented wood and the fibers reconstitute themselves. I would be inclined to take it to a furniture repair shop and have it professionally done and it should be unnoticeable.

[bottlerocket]

Get ready wgscott. First the wood floors, then the persian rug. I guess I was naive to think we could just get wood floors.

[Jud]

Get ready wgscott. First the wood floors, then the persian rug. I guess I was naive to think we could just get wood floors.

 

I can tell you that if you choose carefully, there are carpets available from certain US "big box" home centers that look remarkably like good Persian rugs.

[Deaf Cat]

I used off cuts of pine under my spikes to protect the floor, then tried 1p pieces, that sounded better than the pine, then tried off cuts of brass bar, sounded better still, experiment I think is the key.

[wgscott]

First off, you should be upset at yourself for not getting them out of harm's way before hand. I cannot begin to tell you how many times I have shown up for an installation and the home owner still had shit strewn about, expecting me to work around it.

 

This was before it started. He decided he wanted to pile the wood next to the speaker to let it equilibrate for a week before starting the installation. We moved all the furniture well beforehand. I would have moved this into another room had I known.

 

 

Flooring is rough and tumble sort of work. However, if I were you I would be a bit up set that they did not tell you. I would also not let them fix that. 3 cm is pretty big and could be rather noticeable- definitely effecting resell. Flooring companies most likely are not qualified to fix furniture. Something that big would require a furniture/cabinet repair person. There ought to be a local onsite repair person in your area. If need be, check with a (good) piano or furniture place for a proper touch up person. Most likely they will use lacquer burn in sticks and such. In proper hands, they can be amazingly good.

 

Thanks.

[wgscott]

If it is truly just a dent then it should come out easily. I have used a damp cloth and iron over dented wood and the fibers reconstitute themselves. I would be inclined to take it to a furniture repair shop and have it professionally done and it should be unnoticeable.

 

I was planning to use that followed by a little bit of solvent to spread the stain around. I don't think the speaker is worth enough to spend money on it for this.

[wgscott]

Get ready wgscott. First the wood floors, then the persian rug. I guess I was naive to think we could just get wood floors.

 

Yeah, that rug was expensive. Like, more than the speakers.

 

Sorry for the thread hijacking.

[Jud]

I was planning to use that followed by a little bit of solvent to spread the stain around. I don't think the speaker is worth enough to spend money on it for this.

 

Which is why I was thinking you should talk to the flooring guys - so you're not spending your money, but you don't have to look at a dent or a dent repaired by a willing amateur.

[4est]

Have you tried that with something that had finish on it? Raw wood and it works alright, but it is never the same. With stain and finish it is likely to blush and/or peel. If the speakers are really not worth too much you may want to settle with the flooring people AFTER they have completed the work, but BEFORE you pay.

If it is truly just a dent then it should come out easily. I have used a damp cloth and iron over dented wood and the fibers reconstitute themselves. I would be inclined to take it to a furniture repair shop and have it professionally done and it should be unnoticeable.

[goldsdad]

I can tell you that if you choose carefully, there are carpets available from certain US "big box" home centers that look remarkably like good Persian rugs.

 

But do they sound as good?

[elcorso]

I used off cuts of pine under my spikes to protect the floor, then tried 1p pieces, that sounded better than the pine, then tried off cuts of brass bar, sounded better still, experiment I think is the key.

 

+1

 

Is the only way. It's impossible to have one solution only for all the possible room acoustics, listening gear and owner taste.

 

Roch

[elcorso]

Get ready wgscott. First the wood floors, then the persian rug. I guess I was naive to think we could just get wood floors.

 

Persian (or non Persian) rugs are a must on solid concrete floors, not necessarily on wood floors. Again, we need a lot of experimentation to match room acoustics (floor is only one of his components), listening gear and owner musical taste.

 

Roch

[Jud]

But do they sound as good?

 

They might actually attenuate highs a bit more than a real Persian - the real ones I've seen are thinner. (Not sure how much of a factor floor bounce is with normal listening distances and beaming of higher frequencies.)

 

To the OP: Barry Diament is a proponent of isolation by other means than spikes, so you may want to have a look at his web site.

[elcorso]

I can tell you that if you choose carefully, there are carpets available from certain US "big box" home centers that look remarkably like good Persian rugs.

 

 

Anyway, and not a joke, but when I bought my first "Persian rug" the seller began the show and said "when you find what you like let me know and I tell you the price". Because I'm not a merchant but not so stupid I answered him "please let me know the price before my selection..." As you know Persian rugs are not tagged with the price but a code...!

 

And, if someone likes to know there are noticeable different SQ between Persian rugs and the synthetic ones, yes there are. How much, like real good wood versus MDF. But some people likes better MDF...!

 

But you don't need to spend a fortune to buy a real Persian rug. You will be happier on winter time (and your dog too...), but beware of dog pee, you will get stains on the Persian!

 

Roch

[Audio_ELF]

If you have some time; also worth checking out house clearance sales and auctions for second hand Persian rugs... They do last well.

[bdiament]

...To the OP: Barry Diament is a proponent of isolation by other means than spikes, so you may want to have a look at his web site.

 

Hi Jud and bottlerocket,

 

To be clear, it should be understood that spikes or cones are couplers, the diametric opposite of isolators. Anyone who speaks of "isolation spikes" or "isolation cones" either does not understand or is hoping the reader does not understand. This is very easy to demonstrate. Use a "platform" roughly the size of a component and place that component on the atop spikes or cones, on the platform. Now move the platform--say, gently shake it from side to side. Note how the component moves, in exactly the same direction as the motion of the platform, with no delay. This is because the component is *coupled* to the platform. It is not isolated at all.

 

Okay, with that said, I have been a big fan of isolating speakers since the first day I tried isolating mine. Once I found what isolation did for my other components, I decided to see what happened with my speakers. This after years of hearing how speakers should be rigidly coupled to their support surface. In turns out, in my view, that rather than having the body of the speaker rigidly coupled and hence subject to any and all groundborne vibrations, it is the *drivers* within a speaker that need to work from a rigid surface, i.e., the baffle.

 

After an A/B comparison of the speakers "afloat" vs. the speakers coupled to the floor, I referred to the latter as being "bound and gagged" by comparison. I've since heard several comparisons, either using well designed and implemented roller bearings or a commercial alternative (this in the form of Townshend's wonderful Seismic Speaker Stands). The results are always the same and I wouldn't have believed the differences had I not heard them for myself.

 

My suggestion, for anyone who might be interested, is to try it for yourself. If the speakers have built-in spikes, leave them there and just place the entire assembly atop a platform. (I use 1" maple ply, finished with Watco's Danish Oil - because I like the appearance.) In order for the roller bearings to work their best, they should be placed in the largest equilateral triangle pattern that will fit under the platform. In order to ensure maximum freedom of ball motion (and hence most effective isolation), they need a very hard, very smooth surface to rest against them. I've had good success using a smooth marble tile, smooth side facing down, between the rollers and the platform.

 

If all is set up correctly, the speakers (like other isolated components) will jiggle when gently pushed and released. Of course, this means one must be careful of guests, children and pets, lest the speakers are pushed completely off the rollers and there is a risk of damage from falling.

 

In this photo, note the speakers as well as the subwoofers behind them are floating.

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[miguelito]

Hi Jud and bottlerocket,

To be clear, it should be understood that spikes or cones are couplers, the diametric opposite of isolators.

Completely agree. Although... there are a few spikes that actually are isolators because they have some internal dampening of sorts (Stillpoints Ultra IIRC).

 

Speaking only from personal experience: in my case isolation bases (Symposium Super Plus) made a huge positive impact in the sound of my system (see pic below). I can't say this is across the board true - I think in some cases the effect of the spike is indirectly to make the baffle/enclosure more rigid, as well as "draining some energy" into the floor. I suppose the benefit or not of such effect is very speaker and room dependant.

 

Photo 6 of 9 from Ongaku

[bdiament]

Hi miguelito,

 

There may be spike-like devices that are incomplete couplers (or, if you prefer, incomplete or inefficient isolators). For example, some puck-like devices sold as isolators will in fact provide *some* isolation. They tend to do this to a very small degree and primarily at higher frequencies, where isolation is much less of an issue. These same devices are effectively couplers at lower frequencies.

 

When I think of something being drained, it makes sense to me to expect less of it in the place from which it has been drained.

In the case of audio components, I think this is a marketing term but not a true explanation. What occurs when components are coupled is that vibrations can travel out of, as well as into, the component. Nothing is drained (except perhaps the customer's wallet ;-}). Again, a path "out" is also a path "in". This, as I mentioned above, is very easy to demonstrate.

 

What occurs with coupling is a change in the resonant character of the component. Some may find the change pleasant and I'd never argue with whatever brings anyone their listening pleasure. This, however, is not at all the same as isolation and neither are the results, which, with coupling, I find to be somewhat random and inconsistent (and granted, sometimes pleasant). Proper isolation, on the other hand, results in consistent and repeatable improvements in every area of sound (or video) I know how to describe. At least that is how I experience it.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[miguelito]

Hi miguelito,

 

There may be spike-like devices that are incomplete couplers (or, if you prefer, incomplete or inefficient isolators). For example, some puck-like devices sold as isolators will in fact provide *some* isolation. They tend to do this to a very small degree and primarily at higher frequencies, where isolation is much less of an issue. These same devices are effectively couplers at lower frequencies.

Surely the coupling is frequency dependant. And I very much agree that, unless the coupling mechanism is noticeably compliant (read 'soft') then it will be more of a coupler than an isolator. The way to think about coupling is: I tie it together thus the mass of the system is higher and the resonant frequency lower. Similar to taping a huge rock to your speaker. It "drains" energy in the sense that the vibration source is generally the speaker drivers so most of the flux of energy is from the cabinet towards the rest. Obviously there's NO way to make that transmission asymmetric, it just so happens that the origin of energy is in the cabinet at it naturally propagates to everything it is rigidly attached to.

 

What occurs with coupling is a change in the resonant character of the component. Some may find the change pleasant and I'd never argue with whatever brings anyone their listening pleasure.

Right. However, it is quite likely that the resonant frequencies in a 4-5 feet tall speaker are in the 150Hz or so. If you let the effective cabinet size of the speaker be the same size you're likely to get a resonant peak here. If you attach the cabinet to the floor you're effectively massively lowering the resonant frequency of the cabinet. To illustrate this, take a guitar and pluck the cords, and now to the same while laying the guitar tightly onto the floor (would help to have a way to couple it to the floor).

[bdiament]

Hi miguelito,

 

Surely the coupling is frequency dependant. And I very much agree that, unless the coupling mechanism is noticeably compliant (read 'soft') then it will be more of a coupler than an isolator. The way to think about coupling is: I tie it together thus the mass of the system is higher and the resonant frequency lower. Similar to taping a huge rock to your speaker. It "drains" energy in the sense that the vibration source is generally the speaker drivers so most of the flux of energy is from the cabinet towards the rest. Obviously there's NO way to make that transmission asymmetric, it just so happens that the origin of energy is in the cabinet at it naturally propagates to everything it is rigidly attached to.

 

The thing is, the addition of mass, and the consequent drop in resonant frequency are not the only results engendered by coupling. The connection to groundborne vibrations means these can enter the speaker (and crossover). I find that blocking the entry of groundborne vibrations makes for some pretty important performance improvements.

 

Further, it is often forgotten among audio hobbyists that mass does not absorb (and therefore "erase") energy, it stores it - only to release it after a delay. Manipulating resonances is precisely that: it is simply painting the sound with a different "color", perhaps one that some will find pleasant but nonetheless it is, in my view, playing with color, not removing it.

 

Also, I say again that if something is drained, I expect there to be less of that something in the place from which it has been drained. To date, I know of no evidence to back up the various assertions of draining we see coming from the marketers. As I said earlier, any path out is also a path in. I believe that changing the color of the sound is not the same as removing colorations. As always, whether the results are desirable or not depends exactly on what one seeks.

 

 

Right. However, it is quite likely that the resonant frequencies in a 4-5 feet tall speaker are in the 150Hz or so. If you let the effective cabinet size of the speaker be the same size you're likely to get a resonant peak here. If you attach the cabinet to the floor you're effectively massively lowering the resonant frequency of the cabinet. To illustrate this, take a guitar and pluck the cords, and now to the same while laying the guitar tightly onto the floor (would help to have a way to couple it to the floor).

 

I would not necessarily agree with any specific resonance based only on speaker height and without consideration of the many other factors that can have a profound influence on this.

 

Regarding the guitar example: Exactly! Coupling the guitar to the floor means the sound is now coming not from the guitar but from the combination of the guitar and the floor. (As one who loves the sound of guitars, this is not something I would want.) Similarly, coupling a speaker to the floor means the sound is now emanating not from the speaker but from the combination of the speaker and the floor (albeit to different degrees of course, and in different phase by the time these reach the listener's ears), in addition the the color of the speaker now having been altered (perhaps in ways some listeners might enjoy).

 

It really depends on what one seeks. Having listened to many speakers over the years both coupled to the floor and, in more recent years, "afloat", I'd never go back. To me, it is the difference between a speaker sounding "very good" (which I consider a hopeless coloration) and it getting out of the way (allowing the sound to come from what feeds it).

 

As always, just my perspective. I would hope no one simply takes my word for any of this (other than it being an honest report of my own experience). I suggest folks try it out for themselves with a well-designed and well-implemented means of providing isolation. Just be prepared to do a lot of smiling.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

[NOMBEDES]

1. My first Persian Rug was made in China. (found out that S. Persian meant Sino-Persian - about three years and 3K$ later)

 

2. Never think you can have a compromise about nukes with Iran. (you will lose)

 

3. I replaced a Tabriz Rug with a Nain Rug and noticed my Blues recordings were, well...deeper blue. (inside joke)(you have to be a rug guy to get it)

 

4. Never think you can out smart a rug merchant. (see 2 above)

 

5. I put my speakers on custom wood blocks 15 X 15 X 3 and then put the spikes on the wood block.

[wgscott]

When we bought our Persian rugs, it was like a drug deal. It really gave me the creeps.

[AnotherSpin]

As a recent convert into Barry Diament's bowls and marbles religion I will solemnly testify: this is the best way of placing speakers on a room floor (costs-results). It took some time and research in getting raw aluminium rod, steel bearings balls and capable machinist together, but now I am really enjoying completely new sound from my old speakers. And, bowls/balls do no harm to any surface. Anything you put on it is "floating" but setting is pretty stable at the same time.

 

Rugs: so-called "tribal" rugs, as famous Turkmen rugs and similar to them are much rugged, have less knots per sq. cm, wild ornaments with jazzy irregularities, comparatively cheaper than much more elaborated and labour heavy city Persians. Most of tribal rugs are produced in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran now, also in Caucasus mountains, Turkey, etc. Both city and tribal rugs would be synthetic and natural (threads and dyes). Natural tribals are good for the sound... :-)