Official TIDAL HIFI Streaming Issues Thread

[Cebolla]

Presumably, it's up to the HQ Player / NAA to support streaming services like TIDAL, rather than the other way around. You'd best check with Signalyst or hopefully Miska can respond here.

[Cebolla]

Hi,

 

I'm the BubbleUPnP Server developer.

 

A few precisions concerning TIDAL integration that I recently added in BubbleUPnP Server v0.9-update7.

 

It indeed adds TIDAL support to any standard UPnP AV renderer, using Linn Kazoo or BubbleUPnP/BubbleDS Next on Android as the control point to browse and play TIDAL music.

 

To play TIDAL to your renderer:

 

 

• install BubbleUPnP Server on any machine on your network (PC or NAS)
  
• go to its web configuration and in the Renderers tab select the renderer you want to use for TIDAL and make it an OpenHome renderer clicking the relevating check box
  
• Using Linn Kazoo for control: start Kazoo, select the new renderer then click the TIDAL tile. It will let you enter your login credentials. Once done you can browse and play TIDAL like you would on a real Linn DS, and play it to your renderer.
  Kazoo beta supports TIDAL favorites. The beta is generally stable and safe to use. To switch to Kazoo beta, go into its settings and select "Yes" for "Participate in Beta programme"
  
• Using Android BubbleUPnP for control: start Android BubbleUPnP, in the top side menu make your OpenHome renderer active and select the local media server. Go into the Library tab and select the TIDAL folder. It will ask for credentials only if necessary (not already logged it). Then browse TIDAL and play. You can exit Android BubbleUPnP and TIDAL will continue to play
  
• In the future, if other Control Points add support for browsing TIDAL following the OpenHome spec, they will also work
  

 

 

IMPORTANT: If you run BubbleUPnP Server v0.9-update7 you must update to v0.9-update8 that I published today that fixes TIDAL streaming not working since about a day or two, due to TIDAL changing its streaming infrastructure to Amazon (which I suppose will improve reliability).

 

To update BubbleUPnP Server: in the web configuration, go to the "Settings > Update" tab, click "check for update", then (if there's an update) "apply update".

Welcome!

 

It is because of your software that I am enjoying anything UPnP related.

 

Your program rocks!!

+1

 

Most welcome indeed. Fantastic that the developer of the foo_upnp Foobar2000 plugin component, the BubbleUPnP Server and the AirBubble, BubbleUPnP & BubbleDS Next Android (Bubblesoft) apps is posting here!

[Cebolla]

Thanks for the update. Odd that you didn't notice the same issue with Volumio when streaming just from MinimServer. It may be worth testing with a playlist full of hi-res files and seeing if the buffer needs readjusting.

[Cebolla]

Miggy,i have never had a dropout on the Aries with Tidal. But on two different mac computers ,I have .Both are wired to the router.No use of an ethernet switch. tried one computer wireless,still problems.This is with or without using Amarra SQ .When using Amarra SQ,Tidal frequently cuts outs when I open a web page. It's the initial opening of the web page that creates the most problems.

 

Tried a ramdisk with 1 gb ,still a problem. Tried a vpn in London,still a problem.

Do you know anyone near by who has no such problems with their computer and is willing to swap in one of your computer's for a test? It should at least show if it's an issue with either your ISP(unlikely)/home network configuration (more likely) or your computer setup (likelyhood no comment ).

[Cebolla]

Hello,

From time to time I'm using BubbleUPNP to access Tidal and Raspberry pi with moOde as renderer. How can I check quality of playback? I bought HI-FI lossless option af TIDAL and it's working with Chrome (visible in settings) but I have difficulty to verify quality with BubbleUPNP.

Hi Tribon

 

Not sure what yiou mean about checking the sound quality of TIDAL via BubbleUPnP Android controller app.

Are you referring to its settings?

If so you need to access the BubbleUPnP app's TIDAL settings via Settings/Local Media Server/TIDAL and make sure the Audio Quality property is set to 'FLAC (Requires TIDAL HiFi)' and not 'AAC 320 kbps'.

 

BubbleUPnP's Now Playing screen should indicate whether its playing a FLAC file track or an AAC file track from the playlist you've built from TIDAL and presumably you can verify this being streamed on the MoOde's Web user interface Playback screen.

 

John

[Cebolla]

No worries. Odd you couldn't find the Audio quality setting in the same location as those other three properties you mentioned, as it should be there (between Account & Logout). Are you running the llicensed & latest version of the BubbleUPnP app (2.5.4)?

Well, at least you verified FLAC files being streamed from TIDAL by the MoOde!

 

BTW, there is an edit option on this forum, but it's time limited - 30mins, I think. The edit notice you see below automatically kicks in after ~10mins.

[Cebolla]

I don't understand, fairly new to streaming but my understanding is that the control app simply sends a URL to the renderer, which then pulls the data from the source. No audio data should pass through the control, nor should any processing take place on it. Am I right ?

Correct, but only if you are referring to a UPnP/DLNA renderer streaming from a UPnP/DLNA media server and using a UPnP/DLNA controller.

 

However, TIDAL's online server is not a UPnP/DLNA media server, therefore the BubbleUPnP Android app has to intervene in some way in order for it appear that the URLs being supplied to your UPnP supporting renderer have come from a 'normal' UPnP media server.

 

Bare minimum, the BubbleUPnP app will have to resolve the actual TIDAL tracks URLs, given that they'll be an authentication token involved. Also, it's possible that the BubbleUPnP app has detected that your UPnP renderer is not able to access external servers and is forcibly proxying the TIDAL track streams. Or, you yourself have manually configured the BubbleUPnP app to proxy the TIDAL streams (and all other cloud streams), by setting the Use Proxy option in:

Settings>Local Media Server(>CLOUD CONTENT section)

 

Incidentally, when proxying for a UPnP renderer the BubbleUPnP app does nothing to the actual audio content of the TIDAL streams - so definitely no upsampling.

[Cebolla]

It might be best to mention exactly what you mean by "bubbleupnp with raspberry pi" (eg: BubbleUPnP Server helper software and/or BubbleUPnP Android app; if BubbleUPnP Server, the relevant configuration settings & the networked machine you are running it on; if BubbleUPnP Android app, the relevant configuration settings & the Android device; the version of Raspberry Pi; the Pi's audio distro or standard distro and audio file streaming software; any WiFi use of the Pi; etc).

 

It'll save the casual reader from having to remember and/or look up your past posts mentioning something similar (if they can be bothered and assuming that info is what you are currently referring to anyway), let alone those who could potentially help.

 

I certainly do not have any track stuttering and restarting issues with my "bubbleupnp with raspberry pi" setup connecting to my TIDAL HiFi account via my home network's ISP. Howerver, that could be because I'm using the BubbleUPnP Android app (as an OpenHome controller, TIDAL quality set to streaming FLAC & Use proxy not set) on an Acer Iconia tablet and Sony Xperia S phone, with a Rasberry Pi 2 (Raspbian Jessie Lite distro, running the latest headless version of openhome.org's OpenHome Player and connected by wired ethernet to the network).

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, alligatorman said:

 

Hello,

 

Thank you for the detailed response. I understand how much critical information I've omitted.

Last night, per recommendation from RuneAudio forum ( http://www.runeaudio.com/forum/bubble-upnp-t2855.html ) I created a RuneAudio OpenHome renderer from the BubbleUPnP Server app running on my Qnap NAS.

That seems to have resolved it (for now).

 

So the problematic setup was:

-BubbleUPnP Android App

-RPi3 w/Rune Audio Image

-Tidal Hifi

Problem: intermittent stuttering

 

New Setup:

-BubbleUPnP Server running on QNap NAS

-OpenHome RuneAudio renderer running on above bubble server

-RPi3 w/Rune Audio (wifi and bt disabled)

-BubbleUPnP android app controller (samsung s7)

 

So, in my new setup, what part of the chain is doing what? Is my phone doing all the downloading from TidaI? I suppose I'm asking what the difference between a "server" "renderer" and "controller".

The concept of (UPnP/DLNA) servers, renderers & controllers (aka control points) are still valid for your old setup:

BubbleUPnP Android app's controller function -  standard UPnP control point;

RPi3 w/Rune Audio image - standard UPnP renderer;

BubbleUPnP Android app's local media server & Cloud services function (includes access to TIDAL) - UPnP media server.

 

A pretty decent introduction to them and how they are used together can be found in the CA Academy article:

The Complete Guide To HiFi UPnP/DLNA Network Audio

 

In the old setup, TIDAL access is provided by the BubbleUPnP Android's UPnP media server's Cloud services (extended) function. This might explain why you were getting stuttering (if your network's WiFi bandwidth is close to capacity), since the Samsung S7 you are running the BubbleUPnP Android app on is using WiFi and it would be using the WiFi to both receive the tracks from the TIDAL online server and then to send them to your RPi3. Also, shutting down the BubbleUPnP Android app, would stop the RPi from playing any further TIDAL tracks.

 

Your new setup:

BubbleUPnP Server (running on QNAP NAS) create OpenHome renderer function - OpenHome renderer emulator operating a standard UPnP control point;

RPi3 w/Rune Audio (wifi and bt disabled) - standard UPnP renderer;

BubbleUPnP android app controller (samsung s7) - OpenHome control point.

 

Notice the changes in the new setup:

-The introduction of OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions) streaming and absolutely no UPnP/DLNA media server being used. The BubbleUPnP Server is not a UPnP/DLNA media server - it provides a number of helper functions for UPnP/DLNA, OpenHome & Google Cast devices on the network. One of those helper functions is the Create OpenHome renderer function

- The BubbleUPnP Android app's controller function is now being used as an OpenHome control point, not a standard UPnP/DLNA control point..

 

Unlike standard UPnP/DLNA renderers, OpenHome renderers own the playlist. So they will carry on playing the entire playlist, if the OpenHome control point is switched off. Also, unlike standard UPnP renderers, OpenHome renderers (optionally) natively support online streaming services such as TIDAL & Qobuz. So an OpenHome renderer that supports OpenHome Streaming Services only requires an OpenHome control point to create the playlist & control its playback from TIDAL.

 

The BubbleUPnP Server's created OpenHome Renderer (emulator) contains the playlist & supports OpenHome Streaming Services and therefore can access TIDAL. It also contains a standard UPnP/DLNA control point that automatically & exclusively controls the standard UPnP/DLNA renderer you've created it for. Think of it as a bridge that allows an OpenHome control point to control a standard UPnP/DLNA renderer. It translates the OpenHome control functions it receives from the OpenHome control point (that thinks it's a 'normal'/'real' OpenHome renderer) into standard UPnP control point functions.

 

I'd guess the reason why your stuttering issues have been resolved is because you are now using the BubbleUPnP Server running on the QNAP NAS, presumably with a wired connection, to receive the file tracks trom the TIDAL online server and only using the WiFi portion of the network to send the tracks to the RPi.

[Cebolla]

5 hours ago, AudGuy said:

It's a week later and these files still seem reluctant to play on either of my systems. I guess there may be something wonky about the files, or they are simply so in demand that the servers cannot provide them. I doubt the later so ... FWIW, I have found other files that are MASTER quality and I seem unable to actually play them, or if they play it seems to be with reluctance.

I have found the same problem with those two Yes albums using the same Windows version of the TIDAL desktop app - I've a UK based account, just in case it's a regional issue. It might be TIDAL's MQA software decoder that's at fault, rather than the files themselves, since they do play with the decoder switched off in pass-through mode.

 

Unfortunately, I too don't have an MQA DAC to test this further. However, what I have found is that the issue appears to be music file track specific, rather than applying to the whole album. For example, starting the Fragile album's playlist on any track other than the first, plays ok - though all three of Close to the Edge album's tracks are affected. Interestingly, if you add any unaffected track (even a non MQA one) to the playlist, just before an affected track and start playback from that unaffected track, the problem doesn't manifest itself further down the playlist when the next tracks are automatically played. Only manually selecting the affected tracks to be played causes the problem.

[Cebolla]

The dCS Vivaldi Upsampler is a Roon EndPoint, as well as a UPnP renderer and an AirPlay audio receiver. Only Apple's own AirPlay network streaming mechanism is supported by OS X, such that the Mac should be able to present any AirPlay supporting device on the network as an audio output device to play to.

 

Therefore, if AirPlay is enabled & working properly on the Upsampler, you should be able to select it as an audio output device in the TIDAL Mac desktop app. However, Airplay network audio streaming is fixed at 16/44.1kHz, so the 24/96kHz MQA decoded signal will be downsampled through this mechanism.

 

You won't be able to select the Upsampler's Roon EndPoint nor its UPnP renderer (which unlike AirPlay would both potentially be able to network stream the 24/96kHz MQA decoded signal without resampling) as an audio output device in the TIDAL Mac desktop app, simply because OS X doesn't support their network streaming protocols as it does AirPlay.

[Cebolla]

15 hours ago, Fridolin said:

Hi,

 

i use a "HiFi" subscription for Tidal.

My listening device is an Auralic Aries Mini and i use LDS as an app.

 

As you might know, many albums in Tidal are not really what you pay for (HiFi) but are what i call "LoFi" which means they are delivered as AAC 320 kbps.

 

At least this was the case for a long time. But now i get such albums in even lower quality of AAC 96 kbps. All my playlists that i made for albums which only played with AAC 320 kbps now only deliver music with AAC 96 kbps. That's not acceptable.

 

An example: Chris Standring - Groovalicious

 

Do you get the same bitrates?

By the way, "HiFi" albums are playing correct in high quality.

 

 

 

Interesting. Same album accessed via my TIDAL HiFi account on two different systems yields different results:

Squeezelite accessing TIDAL via the Logitech Media Server's ickStream plugin - MP3 320kbps!

BubbleUPnP Android app, using its local renderer - AAC 96kbps.

 

The ickStream platform does not have any quality settings to configure for TIDAL, but connecting with a TIDAL HiFi account has always provided lossless 16/44.1 kHz FLAC with other albums (does not support MQA masters), so receiving an MP3 stream is a real surprise.

 

BubbleUPnP has 2 quality options for TIDAL, FLAC (at 16/44.1 kHz, as it doesn't support MQA) and AAC 320kbps - I always have FLAC set.

 

Could it be that some 'older' albums are actually coded in MP3 and if a particular platform cannot stream MP3, being hard coded to only deal with FLAC or AAC from TIDAL, it is forced to ask for the lowest quality/mobile 96kbps AAC stream?

 

See this thread on the Roon forum:

MP3 Albums in Tidal HiFi

[Cebolla]

That's the 'new' behaviour you are observing. Like I said I'm also seeing MP3 320kbps via the ickStream platform for the same albums you've mentioned receiving AAC 96kbps. It also appears that MP3 tracks are being streamed by Roon from TIDAL HiFi, see link in my last post.

[Cebolla]

Indeed.

[Cebolla]

16 hours ago, oneartist said:

 My problem was a bad modem. The new modem downloads at 67Mbps and my MConnect Control settings for Tidal have changed dramatically. Masters files are 24 bit, 192K and 1750 kbps. When I was on a search for better hardware to stream MQA I selected PS Audio DirectStream DAC w/Bridge II.

 

Not sure about the logic of what you are saying is here. TIDAL's online servers only supply MQA masters streams undecoded, at a resolution of either 24/44.1kHz or 24/48kHz - so the PSA hardware won't be streaming (decoded) MQA at 24/192kHz from TIDAL. It's down to the receiving software or hardware player's processing power (which shouldn't need much) to decode the MQA streams, with the MQA core (aka 'first unfold') being at a resolution of either 24/176.4kHz for the 24/44.1kHz streams, or 24/192kHz for the 24/48kHz streams.

[Cebolla]

3 hours ago, Geoff1954 said:

Actually that is true in some cases but not others. If one is on an iMac -- as I am -- the Tidal software does offer the decoded MQA file. In other words it performs the first unfold. A DAC that is qualified as a "renderer" of MQA -- such as PS Audio's product -- CAN perform the second unfold. But while I do not have such a DAC, I do get the benefit of the first unfold as long as I play the Master file from my iMac. (Mobile Mac devices can't do that.)

This is confirmed by my own experience of a few months as well as by a recent detailed conversation by phone with a knowledgable MQA rep.

 

All you are doing in the first part is confirming exactly what I just said - the TIDAL desktop app is the (software) player that receives the undecoded MQA masters files over the internet from TIDAL's online server. The TIDAL desktop app decodes and plays the received MQA file and the resulting MQA core/ first unfold LPCM audio signal then gets sent to the DAC. DACs do not receive audio files, be they decoded MQA or otherwise!

[Cebolla]

2 hours ago, oneartist said:

This is from the display on MconnectControl Tidal via iPad: MQA 192 k, 24 bit, 1671 kbps Coldplay Trouble. MConnect Control is the software of choice for Bridge II. One odd thing is that while I had a modem issue, even at 96 kbps through my DirectStream DAC there were no drop outs or other common problems. I have Tidal on my laptop and the long pauses and stops happen  as described here, but not with DS.  

 

Well, either the mconnect Control app is receiving the undecoded MQA file from the TIDAL online server and decoding it for the Bridge II, or the mconnect Control app is simply displaying what the Bridge II itself is decoding the MQA file received from the TIDAL online server. For the sake of network efficiency, I'm hoping it's the later, but who knows what the Bridge II in its guise as an "mconnect compatible" network audio product is doing. 

[Cebolla]

Yep, a bog standard LPCM signal. What else would you send to a DAC, otherwise (and don't be a smartarse and mention DSD)?

[Cebolla]

Ok, good. I already knew the Bridge II was an industry standard UPnP/DLNA supporting network audio file player and it looks like its support for the mconnect proprietary online streaming services provision simply extends the Bridge II's function as an audio file player.

 

In which case the Bridge II is receiving TIDAL's MQA masters files over the internet, so at a resolution of either 24/44.1kHz or 24/48kHz - ie, we are back to me not understanding why your original modem couldn't cope with this.

[Cebolla]

I feel your pain. Reminds me of the lack of gapless support fiasco with the original Bridge.

[Cebolla]

10 hours ago, Geoff1954 said:

Cebolla, you wrote, "All you are doing in the first part is confirming exactly what I just said..."

Always glad when I can confirm something said by someone who always knew he was right to begin with. Have a nice day.

 

 

Hope the sarcasm isn't due to you still misunderstanding what was said and is only just a reaction to being corrected.

[Cebolla]

5 hours ago, oneartist said:

As you are playing tracks you can click on the three dots on the right side and make several custom playlist. I arrange them how I want to listen. Then just hit the play button at the top of each list. It acts a little like a queue. The sound is great and it will work until Bridge III.

 

Good to know - not so bad after all!

 

 

5 hours ago, oneartist said:

I tried getting  MQA  to work  using BubbleUPnp with JRiver as dlna renderer through usb to Oppo 205. It worked now and then.

 

Yes, unfortunately last I heard, both the BubbleUPnP Server and the BubbleUPnP Android app (you didn't say which) don't currently have official permission to provide access to the MQA Masters FLAC tracks from their TIDAL HiFi connections, only the lossless CD resolution FLAC tracks. Any temporary 'hint' of MQA Masters being supplied by TIDAL's online servers via their connections would most likely have been due to an error in the TIDAL API being used by the BubbleUPnP software at that time.

[Cebolla]

The PSA Bridge is just a network audio file player aka streamer aka renderer card, pure a simple - why mystify things by calling it a 'bridge', just because it's a user insertible add-on board for their DACs?

 

Plenty of DAC streamers already out there that have separate boards for their network streaming/audio file playing section, albeit not plugin boards!

[Cebolla]

Only thing I can think of is another one of those TIDAL DNS problems. Make sure all your network devices are using the same DNS (usually best to set the router to it and for the network devices to pick it up from the router) and one that works properly accessing TIDAL's online servers. Google Public DNS is the one usually recommended by TIDAL support whenever there's an outbreak of this issue:

https://developers.google.com/speed/public-dns/docs/using?hl=en

[Cebolla]

9 hours ago, MusicStreamer said:

Now the complications:

I can play TIDAL MQA tracks directly to the Onkyo receiver from my phone with the mconnect lite app. Technically this works fine, but the mconnect/TIDAL integration is only so-so, and so is a bit of a pain. mconnect achieves this by sending the files to an OpenHome renderer i set up on the Onkyo receiver (i set this up by accident, if truth be told - i was just having a bit of a play around!). 

 

The TIDAL android app will play Masters quality files directly on the phone device, but when i try to cast to the Onkyo receiver (the Onkyo has a built in Chromecast audio) it drops back down to hi-fi quality.

 

This seems to be an issue with the cast function within the Onkyo, as when i try and 'cast' MQA TIDAL tracks from the mconnect app

to the Onkyo (rather than via the OpenHome renderer) it says that there's a problem, and refuses to connect.

 

I can't see how this can be possible - conversdigital's  mConnect Player app (including the Lite version) most definitely does not support OpenHome (aka UPnP with Linn extensions)!

 

The mconnect Player app supports standard UPnP/DLNA and Google Cast (Chromecast) - both of these streaming technologies are incompatible with OpenHome streaming (as well as with each other). The conversdigital mConnect Player App product webpage does not mention any support for OpenHome, only standard UPnP/DLNA and Google Cast:

http://conversdigital.com/eng/product/product04.php

 

The mConnect Player app should have no problem in getting either standard UPnP/DLNA or Google Cast supporting devices to stream MQA file tracks from TIDAL's online server and you certainly appear to be doubly unfortunate, given that your Onkyo supports both ☹️.

 

Be aware that the mConnect Player app actually instructs the device it's controlling to stream the MQA file tracks directly from TIDAL's online server - so the actual problem with your Onkyo receiver could be that it does not like being told to stream audio files directly from online servers.

 

 

BTW, is there any chance you could say exactly what this "bit of a play around" was (including any other apps you may have used) that made you think the mConnect Player Lite app could be "sending files" to an OpenHome renderer that you "set up" for your Onkyo receiver?

If we could determine what that actual set up was, it will most likely explain why that seemingly got your Onkyo to stream the TIDAL MQA file tracks.