Recommendation on connection between Mac mini to Bryston BDA-1 DAC

[stephane]

Hi everyone,

 

Well, my question is kind of a follow up on the very long thread related to Alan Taffel's article on USB audio in TAS.

 

I've just bought a new computer-based hi-fi system that includes a Mac mini as a source and a Bryston BDA-1 DAC. My initial choice for the DAC was the Weiss Minerva, for 2 reasons: its FireWire connector and the outstanding reviews I read on it. At the last minute, I changed my mind and selected the Bryston DAC as I had chosen the Bryston B-60 SST integrated amp and the combination produced a sound I enjoyed greatly at a lower cost and with a more integrated design.

 

My system will get delivered in a few weeks and, last week-end, I started to look for information on the best connection between the Mac mini and the Bryston DAC. My dealer called me last Friday to let me know there was a very good review of the Bryston BDA-1 in the last TAS issue, so I downloaded the pdf version and read the article. My conclusion after reading that article was that I should not use the USB connectors. I decided to read more and went straight to CA as I've found it a great source of information and I also read some other reviews on the Bryston BDA-1 that included some connectivity preferences.

 

Well, you guys have made me spend more than 15 hours in reading, thinking, deciding, changing my mind... over that topic. And I'm still not 100% sure which way to go, so I'll summarize what I think and then ask for a recommendation.

 

Summary of my findings:

 

- the Bryston BDA-1 is highly regarded in its price range

 

- it has a lot of connectivity options:

- IN: S/PDIF TOSLINK, S/PDIF coaxial RCA, S/PDIF BNC, AES/EBU, USB

- OUT: balanced XLR, unbalanced RCA stereo, S/PDIF coaxial bypass loop

 

- it has systematically been reported by reviewers of the Bryston BDA-1 that its USB connector produces inferior sonic results than its S/PDIF TOSLINK connector and that its USB implementation is of relatively low quality (contrary to some high quality USB DACS from Wavelength, Ayre or dCS for instance)

 

- it seems there is some sort of consensus on the superiority of the FireWire interface over the USB interface (but not over the asynchronous USB interface which is quite new and rarely used, but used in USB DACS from Wavelength, Ayre or dCS for instance)

 

- it seems that most people find the connectors producing the best sonic results are, in descending order: AES/EBU, S/PDIF BNC, S/PDIF coaxial RCA, S/PDIF TOSLINK, USB (except asynchronous USB which seems much better)

 

Then my questions to the experts:

 

- what would be the best way to connect the Mac mini to the Bryston BDA-1 using the Mac mini's FireWire connector and the Bryston's S/PDIF TOSLINK connector? If possible, I'd appreciate recommendations on real products.

 

- what would be the best connector to use on the Bryston BDA-1 to get it connected to the Mac mini knowing I want to use the FireWire OUT connector of the Mac mini; besides, which product would you recommend to make that connection between the FireWire connector and the Bryston BDA-1 connector you'd recommend I use?

 

- would it be a good idea to add an I/O interface between the Mac mini and the Bryston BDA-1 DAC, as suggested by Alan Taffel in his TAS article? If no, why? if yes, would one of those products be convenient? If not, what would you recommend?

 

- Motu 896mk3 ((FireWire In - S/PDIF coaxial Out) http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/896mk3

- Focusrite Saffire pro10 io (FireWire In - S/PDIF coaxial Out) www.focusrite.com/products/saffire/saffire_pro_10_io/

- Focusrite Saffire (FireWire In - S/PDIF RCA coaxial Out) www.focusrite.com/products/saffire/saffire/

- Apogee Ensemble (FireWire In - S/PDIF coaxial Out) www.apogeedigital.com/products/ensemble.php

- Apogee Mini-DAC FW (FireWire In - S/PDIF coaxial RCA Out - XLR pin2-hot Out) www.apogeedigital.com/products/mini-dac.php

- Digidesign 003 rack factory (FireWire In - S/PDIF coaxial Out - BNC Out) www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?itemid=5029&langid=100

 

- ok, this one will likely have as many recommendations as readers, but I'll still give it a try:

 

- which cable would you use to connect the Bryston BDA-1 DAC to the Bryston B-60 SST integrated amp?

- which cable would you use to connect the Bryston B-60 SST integrated amp to the Audio Physic Tempo VI speakers?

 

Thanks a lot in advance for your responses.

 

Cheers,

Stephane

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Stephane - Thanks for starting this thread. I think many people have this same question. I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about which interface type is best without testing them in your system. Even then, the conclusion will be highly specific to your own system. The TAS USB article sure made USB sound like the worst thing since the Swine Flu. I wouldn't buy into that article 100%. Sure the article did not test any Asynchronous USB implementations, but I think the article could have addressed the differences between the adaptive implementations a little better.

 

I think the CEntrance code that Benchmark and Bel Canto are using on their current USB implementations is superior to older adaptive USB implementations. In your situation I think you should look at the Bel Canto USB Link. It's full 24/96 without additional drivers etc... This USB implementation is very different from the built-in BDA-1 USB implementation.

 

If you really want firewire there are a few options. I am familiar with the Weiss Engineering firewire to AES converters as well as the Sonic Studio Model 3 firewire to AES converter. Both work with Amarra as well. I've used these and can report very good results. I'm not sure what price range you're looking at but these products may be a little expensive compared to the cost of the BDA-1. The term expensive is relative of course.

 

I suppose I should look into the six options you mentioned above. You've done some of the homework already by identifying possible converters. Thanks!

 

[icebreaker]

The general consensus at the Bryston Audio circle is that AES is the best way to interface with the Bryston BDA. Doesn't mean that they are right though and I would certainly respect advice from this site as being at least as good.

I know that many at the Bryston Owner's Circle use the Lynx AES 16 PCI card to run AES into their BDA with good results but with the lack of a PCI slot in the Mini that is a real problem. The Lynx card is around $1000. If some of the experts here can advise on an interface for the Mini>Lynx that would be great if it is at all possible. I'm a Mac person but I was strongly considering a lower priced PC with a PCI slot when I was looking at the Bryston BDA because its one of the best DACs IMO. And I didn't want to have a Mac Pro at $2900 along with the Mac Mini I had already purchased just to get a PCI slot. I know that USB and optical are not worth consideration from the feedback I've heard.

 

[DanRubin]

I use a Mac Mini and a BDA-1 and have wrestled with the exact same issues. I use an Empirical Audio Offramp 3 to convert USB to S/PDIF (coax or AES/EBU). It's very nice and, while I haven't heard the Bel Canto USB link, I imagine the Empirical is better (it uses a better clock). It's also more expensive at around $1,000.

 

I am curious about Firewire but have not tried it. I am considering getting a Focusrite Saffire or a Konnekt8 or something along those lines to give Firewire a try. Anybody know which works best with a Mac or if either is even a good idea at all?

 

In my opinion, it is not necessary for you to buy one of these converter devices right away. Honestly, I think Toslink out of the Mac Mini into the Bryston is quite decent sounding and you should consider starting out with that. It will support up to 24/96. The choice of cable makes a difference. I use one from Wireworld, which requires a mini-Toslink adapter at the Mac Mini end. It's possible that Wireworld now offers or can make the cable with a mini adapter at one end. (Wireworld, are you listening?). This should run you around $125 - $150, which is less than what you would probably spend on a good USB cable if you decided to go USB.

 

As another data point, a friend, who also uses the Bryston DAC, borrowed my Empirical and concluded that it's no better than Toslink. I think he's wrong, but it goes to show, I think, that these things are not entirely cut and dried and that the differences may not be a great as some make them out to be.

 

Let us know what happens.

 

 

 

[rayhil]

I too am continuing my reading and research on what system to put together as a computer/dac front end and I'd appreciate seeing more on this thread as the MacMini seems like it's a great price and easy to use. The BDA-1 is certainly one strong candidate for the dac, but the method of connection remains an issue I'm still pondering. the Mini's inability to pass 24/192 through its toslink output is a downside, as it seems a bit foolish to buy the dac without being able to play highest res audio from the server. The firewire output options seems like a possibility, but adding the likely connectors appears to increase the price (but I haven't fully researched how much).

In another thread, AudioElf/Elouise wrote:

"Not to be picky, but to get 24/192 from a Benchmark DAC don't you need to use SPDIF or AES. As the MacMini doesn't (currently) support 24/192 from it's optical port you'd need a FireWire to SPDIF adaptor (such as MAudio ProFire 610) which will add another $3-500."

Is this the best means of connecting the Mini to the BDA-1? I'm hoping James Tanner might weigh in on this point (I tried to get a Bryston email address off their site, but the contact link didn't work).

Adding the connector cost, would moving to a Weiss be a better choice?

Alternatively, what do folks think about saving some $$ and dropping down in price to the Wavelength Proton (knowingly losing the 24-192) or the Apogee Mini?

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

I'll see if I can get James to chime in here.

 

[Mr.C]

I can say for certain that the BDA-1 is a level above the mini-dac in terms of details. Which you will prefer on the other hand...

 

[audiozorro]

The real solution that many hope is for Apple to solve the problem of getting 24/192 out of these boxes. I believe some have stated that the limitation is the Mac OS(X) and that they are able to get 24/192 from the toslink interface if they boot Windows Vista instead. I have not tried this so perhaps others can provide details of their setup and what they did.

 

The other possible solution is for Apple to offer a card interface that would fit into one of these boxes or provide a slightly larger computer that would allow a standard PCIe interface card. Thus if Apple were interested they could release a Mac MiniMax or utilize the SD or Express Card slot in their laptops to provide such an interface.

 

With all the discussions regarding jitter, I find it hard to believe that using an intermediate interface such as a TC Electronics Konnet 8, Motu 896mk3, Focusrite Saffire, Apogee Mini-DAC FW, or Apogee Ensemble would be a good solution. Of course if you want to go down this route I would assume the Weiss units would be excellent, albeit at a price for which you may be better suited to just buy the Weiss DAC2.

 

Barring any of the above the better solution for 24/192 IMO is either the Mac Pro or a Windows PC with an excellent interface card. For my Windows music servers I use either the Lynx AES16 ($600) and the Juli@ ($120) to provide 24/192 output with excellent results to my external DACs.

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

audiozorro wrote... "With all the discussions regarding jitter, I find it hard to believe that using an intermediate interface such as a TC Electronics Konnet 8, Motu 896mk3, Focusrite Saffire, Apogee Mini-DAC FW, or Apogee Ensemble would be a good solution. Of course if you want to go down this route I would assume the Weiss units would be excellent, albeit at a price for which you may be better suited to just buy the Weiss DAC2.

 

Barring any of the above the better solution for 24/192 IMO is either the Mac Pro or a Windows PC with an excellent interface card. For my Windows music servers I use either the Lynx AES16 ($600) and the Juli@ ($120) to provide 24/192 output with excellent results to my external DACs.

The FireWire devices you listed, none (except the Apogee Ensemble which I can't find details of) will provide you with a 24/192 capable SPDIF interface. Either they are limited to 24/96 or have no facility to connect to an external DAC (Apogee MiniDAC FW).

 

Being FireWire interface, the amount of jitter is (mostly) dependent on the SPDIF interface in the same way as a PCI card is. There is no intrinsic reason why a FireFace 400 (for example) will sound any worse than the ESI Juli@. yes the Lynx is excellent, but then so is the Weiss AFI1 used as a FireWire to AES interface and this can be used with a MacMini or MacBook. This is actually a comparison I'd be very interested in - MacMini + AFI1 vs MacPro + AES16e as they are very similar costs combined and both provide similar features.

 

Of course all this adds to the cost of a Byrston BDA-1 and makes comparison with the Weiss DAC2 (for example) squewed in terms of cost as you need to maybe think of the combined costs. (i.e. comparison in terms of cost is between Weiss DAC2 and Bryston BDA-1 plus suitable interface. Of course, with MacMini (or other computer with SPDIF interface) you can start with the inbuilt interface and then test other interfaces later to see if you get an improvement.

 

Anyway just my thoughts no real answers.

Eloise

 

[audiozorro]

I have the TC Electronic Konnekt 8 and I used to have the Apogee Mini DAC FW. Both have 24/192 s/pdif coaxial digital input and the Konnekt 8 provides 24/192 coaxial digital output. The slightly more expensive Konnekt 24D has the additional 24/192 toslink I/O. I never owned the Apogee Ensemble but the technical data in the Owner’s Manual shows it like the Konnekt 8 is capable of 24/192 s/pdif coaxial digital input and 24/192 coaxial digital output. The toslink out from the Ensemble however is limited to 24/96. I am merely suggesting that these units could be used to feed any external DAC that has 24/192 coaxial inputs.

 

I have not conducted any detailed tests to demonstrate whether the Lynx AES16 is sonically superior to the ESI Juli@. I just accept that they are both excellent interface cards, that are very well supported and have excellent reviews. The RME FireFace 400 or 800 seem to also have favorable reviews but I found that some users have complained of compatibility problems, which by the way so have some TC Electronic Konnekt users. I rank the Weiss units at the top of the list but this is not based on personal experience but from reputation and the reviews of others I respect. Now the least expensive of the above are the Juli@ and the Konnekt 8 but I would not assume that their sonic performance is equal to the Weiss, though one or both may be equal. And I have no technical data or intrinsic reasons why they may sound any worse. In a case like this I am inclined to defer to Daniel Weiss, even though his opinion may be naturally biased.

 

Perhaps jitter is the wrong word since some people have a limited or expanded view of what can affect jitter. My comment was to point out while we discuss the SQ superiority of one cable (toslink, coaxial, USB, firewire, power), any solution that is convoluted by added more stuff (another unit, interface cables, power) is usually not optimum for superior sound. Thus if the author is committed to Mac Mini and must have 24/192 capability I would suggest that he sell the Bryston BDA-1 and buy the Weiss DAC2. Or he could do what I did, add a Windows music server and have the flexibility of both Windows and Mac. I think I would put a well built cMP/cPlay or XXHighEnd Windows music server against the best Mac/Amarra music server any day and the Windows solution would win on both cost and performance. Perhaps that can be a part of the next CA Symposium.

 

 

[Audio_ELF]

I may be wrong having not one here to test, but according to TC Electronics Website under detailed features for the Konnekt 8 (and I seam to remember same for 24D) they state ...

 

2 Digital S/PDIF coaxial inputs & outputs and additional AUX input

The 96 kHz digital S/PDIF coaxial inputs are identical to the S/PDIF inputs you know from devices like CD-players, keyboards, digital mixers, and preamps with digital out.

 

These inputs run up to 96 kHz, and can also be used to insert external send effects. That means that you can e.g. connect an M300 to take care of the monitor effects if you prefer too. The DICE II and the JET™ technology make sure that the digital signal runs smoothly and with ultra-high precision.

 

 

And I thought the output was described the same, but I can't find anywhere it states it currently.

 

Just to clarify (especially for the original poster)...

The Apogee MiniDAC accepts a 24/192k INPUT but has not outputs to interface with another DAC such as the Bryston.

The Apogee Ensemble has both input and output at 24/192k

The TC Konnekt 8 (and 24D) has SPDIF input and output, but there seams to be some discrepancy about its capabilities - I has always been led to believe it was only 24/96k capable, but audiozorro is saying it will support 24/192k.

 

One thing audiozorro also said was... "I think I would put a well built cMP/cPlay or XXHighEnd Windows music server against the best Mac/Amarra music server any day and the Windows solution would win on both cost and performance. Perhaps that can be a part of the next CA Symposium."

This may well be true ... but how much is your time worth? A well build cMP/cPlay server is going to take many hours to build / configure I would think, where as Amarra with Weiss is a plug and play solution. I'm not being anti-PC or pro-Mac, but each have their place IMO.

 

Eloise

 

[DanRubin]

Audiozorro, are you using the Konnekt8 with a Mac or a PC? And into which DAC?

 

I think I would put a well built cMP/cPlay or XXHighEnd Windows music server against the best Mac/Amarra music server any day and the Windows solution would win on both cost and performance.

 

This is a very intriguing statement. I would love to hear more discussion of this issue.

 

 

[audiozorro]

I found it to sound inferior to my Reference DAC or my Benchmark USB DAC1 or my previously owned Apogee Mini DAC. I keep it around for possible A/D conversions though I don't know if using my internal Juli@ card in my Windows music server for A/D would not be better. I have also considered the Apogee Duet, which is limited to 24/96, for possible A/D conversions. Unfortunately I am either having too much fun with digital to ever get around to digitizing vinyl.

 

I purchased all my DACs for my MacBook Pro since I only recently switched to Windows solutions when I found out my Mac toslink was 24/96 limited and I was not satisfied with the 24/192 Apogee FW Mini DAC. A Mac Pro solution would have cost $2,500-3,500 so I decided to try the CA recommend "Audiophile Reference Music Server For A Song', which was about $1,000. I subsequently built a better computer for using cMP/cPlay for around $600 and I am using the less expensive Juli@ card instead of the Lynx AES16 card in my other computer.

 

My reference audio system is separate but, I keep the Benchmark USB DAC1 in my computer audio workshop test bed since I can connect it to 4 different computers to easily switch between them. Thus I can easily compare my cMP/cPlay solution (XP and Lynx) to my XXHighEnd solution (Vista and Juli@) to my Amarra solution (Mac Tiger OS and USB). Lots of fun and chances to explore the best of both Mac and Window worlds. That's a good part of what this hobby should be about.

 

[audiozorro]

you are referring to may be incorrect or it may be based on using the associated software, which may not be fully functional over 24/96. If you download the Konnekt 8/24D User Manual you will see the 24/192 coaxial digital info on pages 5 and 62-67.

 

Unfortunately I do not have any equipment to easily verify 24/192 coaxial output of the Konnekt 8 though I may be able to connect it to either my Lynx AES16 or Juli@ cards for some kind of verification. My plate is pretty full now but I will try sometime this fall if this is still an issue.

 

Here's another one to consider, the M-Audio unit:

 

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProFire610.html

 

[Audio_ELF]

That's good news if the TC Konnekt 8 does support 24/192 as it's widely spoken of as a good FireWire to SPDIF for 24/96 so if it also supports 24/192 that is excellent for "legacy" DAC users.

 

Eloise

 

[DanRubin]

Audiozorro, you say:

 

I am not using the Konnekt 8 for anything right now...I found it to sound inferior to my Reference DAC or my Benchmark USB DAC1 or my previously owned Apogee Mini DAC.

 

This suggests you were using the Konnekt8 as a DAC. Did you try using it as a Firewire to S/PDIF (or AES/EBU) converter and going into your Reference DAC or Benchmark via the Konnekt8 instead of via USB or however you were doing it?

 

I ask because I am curious about the merits of Firewire out.

 

 

 

 

 

[audiozorro]

About the time I read that the Mac was not outputting 24/192 through the toslink connection, the Apogee Duet seem to be the rave on several other websites. Well I was not impressed with the Konnekt 8 as a DAC and I knew I wanted 24/192 so I tried the Apogee Mini DAC. The Mini DAC was much better than the Konnekt 8 but it still failed to move me to buy another DAC since I already had the well regarded Benchmark USB DAC1.

 

If Chris wants or has the time to do a review of the Konnekt 8, I would be happy to ship it to him for all to benefit. However, I suspect that he would find that the Konnekt 8 diminishes the SQ of his reference Berkeley Audio DAC and with that thought in mind it should not be used as a transparent converter since IMO it probably is not transparent and it probably has a negative effect on the downstream DAC. Will it work - yes; does it improve the sound - probably no; is it neutral - probably not; does it diminish the DAC SQ - probably yes. Thus I probably would not connect the Konnekt 8 to my Mac via firewire output in order to get 24/192 to my Benchmark via coaxial input.

 

[Audio_ELF]

Because of the discrepencies mentioned, I set a question to TC re the SPDIF connection and 24/192 - the reply they gave me stated that it would do 24/192; but only in mono.

 

The only FireWire devices I've ever managed to find confirmation supporting 24/192 are FireFace 400 and 800; Weiss Vesta, AFI1, etc.; TC Electronics Konnekt x32. I think Apogee Ensemble supports 24/192 via SPDIF and also the Metric Halo ULN8. The M-Audio also implies it supports 24/192 but I've seen conflicting comments on this.

 

I think it would actually be intereting if Chris (or someone else) did do a comparision of Lynx AES16 vs. FireFace vs. AFI1 vs. M-Audio 610 into the Berkeley as it would give a good indication if we NEED a full size machine with PCI(e) or if FireWire is a good alternative via FireFace or similar. Of course this relies on being able to borrow various interfaces.

 

Eloise

 

[DavidL]

...................... it's very good.

 

David

 

[audiozorro]

Audio_ELF thanks for the follow-up. I find it strange that someone would design a stereo unit that above a certain frequency is only mono. I understand the rationale for doing something similar for sub low frequencies, but this seems strange and I can’t imagine what purpose it would serve.

 

Anyway I previously mentioned that I did not think highly of the Konnekt 8 as a DAC so I guess my opinions may also extend to using it as a firewire to spdif converter. As they say, you get what you pay for. I was not overly impressed with the Apogee Mini DAC either though IMO the Mini DAC is far better than the Konnekt 8 as a DAC.

 

The RME Fireface 400 or 800 may be good DACs but I was concerned over several compatibility issues that some customers had posted. In addition my interest in high rez was piqued by the Reference Recordings HRx discs. They post the following regarding the RME Fireface:

 

Here is a MacBook system one tester is trying (RR doesn’t guarantee this will work):

"MacBook with 2.4 gHz core 2 duo, 2 gb RAM, running the latest OS X (10.5.2, I think). The soundcard is a RME Fireface 400, this hooks up to the computer via Firewire, and outputs SPDIF electrical via an RCA. From this the digital signal goes to a modded PS Audio DL-III DAC.

 

Nothing in my setup is fully optimized, as I am learning a lot through setting up this system. For instance, although many people have told me the Fireface is a great way to go, it has a rather poor jitter spec (by audiophile standards) and I suspect far better performance is possible with a different converter.”

 

Personally I would be interested in using the RME Fireface as a DAC, but apparently some including the above mentioned tester feel that the Fireface is not as good as a modded PS Audio DL-III DAC. Which brings me back to answer the original author’s inquiry. Why put some inferior unit before the excellent sounding Bryston BDA-1 DAC. Yes you could do it, but why? I would think that 24/96 straight to the Bryston will sound better than 24/192 to the Fireface and then to the Bryston. Paraphrasing another poster – an excellent 24/96 DAC is better than a good 24/192 DAC.

 

If I felt only a Mac Mini or MacBook computer would serve my needs and I wanted 24/192 capability I would buy the Weiss DAC2. I say this in hindsight since obviously I did try other less expensive 24/192 firewire DACs. But IMO the Mac Mini or MacBook computers with any excellent sounding 24/96 DAC (whether it is a DAC limit such as Wavelength or Empirical Audio DAC or a Mac OS limit with the Bryston DAC) is still an excellent choice.