Group Buy for full ATX Linear PSU from Teradak

[Lowlands]

Do we know much about the actual perfomance of these units? I ask cuz I am on the cusp of ordering two 275's for our group buy, but wanted to ask this loaded question:

* I have a massive Hynes SR7-EHD ps that is dialed up to 19V and powers my audiopc (back end of dual JPLAY setup), basically a CAPS V3 Zuma (except with Asus board). My USB card is JCAT so it is powered internally by 3V PCIE, and my SSD is battery powered. So I am basically using VERY clean Hynes power to go into a 19V $100 PICOPSU, which then dirties everything up and send it out to the other areas of the computer. Would this ATX Teradak improve things, even if its dedicated multiple rails are not quite as theoretically clean as my single rail Hynes?

* And would I be able to get the 3V PCIE power to power my JCAT USB card or does that require a different mobo than what I have (the JCAT is then connected to external 5V from my RW-modded Acopian for DACs that need it, which I assume is not a candidate for the Teradak power)?

 

Ted,

 

The proof will be in the eating I guess..... &.one cannot listen to all design choises prior...

 

JPlay and TirnaHifi forums do have folks stating... / claiming...

- that the logical upgrade path is [lineair into pico] => [all lineair]. The latter in practice is mostly dumb, requiring DIY and limited mobo selection, but is stated to sound better than with PICO. However, some of these guys are taking it somewhat 'to the edge' for some.

- the (dirty)PCI power is a 'weakness' of the JCAT card (I thought you were on PPA?) and there is talk on modding a PCI riser cable to inject clean power into it... (another DIY way). Do not remember reading anyone actually having done it / results..

 

Assuming the JCAT uses the 3.3 ATX mobo supplied rail without any on-mobo DC/DC regulation in its PCI power feed, you will have your next step on both point with a full lineair ATX supply....

 

You might do the step in the middle.. Buy one for your audio pc en put the big PH supply on the control PC. You might even test swapping that setup, which will give some very valuable information .... (for others also..)?

 

Reg,

Hans

[Lowlands]

Hi Ben-M,

 

I think we also need to specify the length of the ATX power wires needed inside the PC. I just received my FC10 and I found out the input DC cable of my nano-supply is 2 inches short to reach the back panel mounting position. In my case I'll need a min of 45cm cable length to wire from the back panel to the motherboard ATX power socket.

 

Thanks.

 

Any case / build will require something different. That is why casemodding exists (go see Youtube, it's a sub-culture).

ATX extender cables of all kinds cost a dime...

[Lowlands]

Hans,

thanks. Yes, my controlpc is a smaller Atom-based CAPS V3 Lagoon and I have it powered by a smaller Hynes Sr3-12. Question: will my Asus P8H77-I allow me to bypass the PicoPSu (was a 12V but replaced with 19V PicoPSU and dialed up Hynes SR7 to 19V) and go direct to these specific power connectors on my mobo? What do I look for in my specs/diagram? ... .

 

 

Ted,

 

Sorry, was out for a few days...

 

If you're asking if the Teradak can replace the PICO PSU, my understanding is 'yes'. The teradak to my knowledge is ATX compliant, so it should run any ATX standard mobo (provided the draw is within the power limitations of the PSU). I recollect this was confirmed by Michael from Teradak to Ben-M (pls. chime in Ben..)

 

If you're asking if your Asus P8H77-I allows for a dumb multi-rail into it's ATX socket.. the answer is 'I don't know'. It's a trial & error thing. A big 'test enthousiast' I know of is Nige (nige2000).

A 'how-to' (by nige) & list of tested mobo's is here: AUDIO PC: Direct power to motherboard 24 and 4pin (picoless)

 

Your Asus P8H77-I is not on the list.... Don't know if anyone has ever tried feeding it dumb linear. You might want to ask...

 

The P8H77-I does have a 12V ATX 4-pin for the CPU. Are you supplying that with a separate rail, or is that coming of the wide-PICO? My reading tells me that many find putting a separate & clean 12V on the CPU will reap some benefits (most likely X-talk contamination not happening, similar to pulling the SSD off the 5V rail) . Also, I understand that CPU rail to be NOT subject to power-on sequencing (can be 'always on', will not draw any current until boot). Plenty folks are running with two cheap linear 12V bench supplies (13,8V turned down to 12V, Maplin, Voltcraft), one on PICO, one on CPU. So, if you are now running a PH singe rail into (wide input) PICO, you might want to run the other PH rail turned to 12V (made available due to a Teradak arriving :-) ) into the 12V CPU of your control PC....?

 

NB. The secondary 12V rail (there are 2 with same # amps) on the Teradak is meant to separately power the CPU for that same reason. The loom has a CPU 4pin for that.

 

Also, the wide-PICO is likely to not give the performance of the 12V-PICO, when fed with good 12V linear. The 12V PICO does not touch the 12V (it 'forwards' it, likely with less pollution than a wide PICO). However if your PH needs to turn the rest into heat.. it might be getting a bit hot..

 

Just my thought, 2cts. etc etc..

[Lowlands]

Well...That's a first. I just did my first internet purchase from China.. For a freakin' $584,25.. aah.

Right. Better get myself a fresh CAS to plug this thing into... Any thoughts?

[Lowlands]

... what items to include for customs, and so on....

 

Oops. Haven't thought about customs. What is wise / best practise here when importing into EU (Netherlands). Any tips (that might save me some?

 

@Ben: was joking... I have (VERY) many thoughts on my next CAS design... Need to kill-off options though..

I have more or less decided on Single PC on Server2012 + AO + JRiver.

Need to decide on :

- Bay Trail vs Haswell.

- Details on battery config (how many batteries; do I share the Teradak 5VSB to trickle charge 2 batteries for both PPA and SSD, or should I bring in a separate 5V feed for one of them, or do I put the PPA on the 5V shared with the mobo...)

- relays to switch the batteries.

 

I don't really care for form factor. My CAS in on a bottom shelf in a rack besides my couch (not in sight). Heat is an issue, but 10W Bay Trail vs 35W Haswell pré underclocking should not give much difference..

 

Hans

[Lowlands]

Ben,

 

Could you ask Michael two things:

- What rails come from what transformer?

- Is the 5VSB auto current limited (does it withstand being short circuited, capping the current at 2.2amps), or will that blow a fuse? I assume the latter b.t.w. (it will blow a fuse)..

 

My guess:

- It seems the big toroid supplies the main ATX 3.3V / 5V / 12v rails via the 3 regulator boards at the sides (on heatsinks).

- Since all ATX types have the same 2.2amps on the 5VSB line, I assume the blue transformer in the middle, sits on it's own regulator board and is supplying the 5VSB rail.

- That leaves the small board at the back for the -12V. I cannot tell what it is feeding from...

 

NB. To all of you guys contemplating a build with internal batteries, using the 5VSB (like me): Unless the 5VSB is resilient to being short circuited (likely not), you need a charger board to limit the load current to your battery... No big deal if you plan to insert an Anker type USB battery bank, since that has that all built-in...

[Lowlands]

Ben,

 

I would rather have things done right instead of fast. I'm in no hurry, as long as the unit I receive is well made with the right parts.. You can put me at the end of the batch if required...

 

Hans

[Lowlands]

Teradak's Answers:

1.) It's hard to explain what rail comes from which transformer, because we(CA'ers) don't have a working definition of which transformer is which. It would take too long to define that .....

 

Haha. Duh... Are there more than two, one if them being a large toroid and one of them being smaller, in a blue square casing?

Anyway, I understand the need to circumvent a zillion of questions likely resulting from any answer...

 

Very slimmed down yes/no question: Can you ask if the 5VSB and the 5V rails EACH has a it's OWN regulator, separate from the other?

 

Backtracking that once the unit has arrived is likely a bit of a puzzle ...

[Lowlands]

Good stuff. Seems they replaced the blue transformer with an R-core....?

The backplate shows a seperate 5v. Guess/wonder if that is the 5vsb?

[Lowlands]

Ben-M - does the Teradak PSU come with 24pin + 4pin or 24pin + 8pin main ATX looms (or even better - split 4+4pin option) ?

 

...

 

I'm asking since the new CAPS V4 design uses the server MoBo, which needs server 8pin CPU power as opposed to the popular 4pin CPU connector.

Worst case scenario, one can use 4pin to 8pin adapter:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16052[/ATTACH]

but I would like to limit the amount of loom inside.

 

From the opposite angle... If one chooses a mobo with 4-pin CPU, will a loom with an 8-pin work / be compatible? (I don't know)?

 

If not, since I likely will go with a mini ITX board with CPU 4-pin, I vote for a 4-pin on the loom (sorry Adam..... )

[Lowlands]

Ben,

 

Heard back; yes, each one has it's own regulator :-)

 

Great ! That means the 5VSB should be suitable to drive a USB card when not driving a battery charger...

 

The separate +5V on the back is indeed the extra connection for the +5VSB that we asked for. Teradak believed it was better to have it here and not as just an extra lead off an internal wire because not everyone will be able to fit their batteries or chargers units inside their chassis. Especially if you're running larger units like car batteries.

 

And if you can attach internally, you can just run the cable beside the umbilical, throw a few zip-ties on, and put it through a slot in the back of your chassis.

 

I thought their solution was very considerate and much more thorough and costly than I was imagining. I appreciate what they've done.

 

Understood. This is indeed more costly & nice, but does raise some minor questions (sorry):

- I assume the 5VSB is still also on the main loom, since the ATX spec requires pin 9 to carry the 5VSB?

- Will they still provide an additional set of wires for the 5VSB of the 20pin ATX (squeeze it in with pin 9 & GND = the 1 minute option), or is this an "instead of" feature.. (for those planning this inside the case anyway).

- Will Teradak supply a seperate 5V cable or perhaps only the plugs that go with the additional 5VSB at the back of the unit?

 

Units are looking great. Thanks for the hard work !

[Lowlands]

Love to see a picture of the wire set (inc 5vsb)!

[Lowlands]

Ben,

Still slightly confused what defines umbilical VS loom, inside and outside..

 

Is my understanding correct, that getting the 5VSB inside the computer will imply an additional 'hole' in the computer case and that I need to put a cable with a molex + sata plug on it through that hole?

[Lowlands]

Thanks Ben. Clear!

[Lowlands]

Ben,

 

Congrads on the wedding! Enjoy!

 

I would guess that implies an official single config spouse (No 'jplay' dual configs for you) from now on.... Or does Chinese law cut you some slack there..? :-)

[Lowlands]

That's more like it !

Kudos to _JL_ for drawing this to their attention. You have all benefitted by receiving a vastly lower noise PSU.

 

KInd Regards

Alex

 

+1

We all owe you one _JL_ !

Great that there are such knowledgeable folks here...

[Lowlands]

@_JL_ :

DO you know if the 5VSB line has the same mod & the same level of performance as the other rails? SInce the 5VSB rail is 2.2 amps max, I reckon that their measurements with a 2amp avarage load might not apply to that 5VSB rail?

 

I am asking because I am contemplating using the 5VSB to drive the PPA USB card directly (with a relais, switched by the regular 5V ATX rail going to the SATA plugs). If the 5VSB is not of similar quality, I might put a battery in between aswell... The latter is a bit more complicated build option...

 

Thx!

[Lowlands]

Is the 5VSB the extra output with a separate cable?

 

Yep !

 

From what I gathered the output is implemented differently - I may be wrong but I think it is implemented using standard IC regulator instead of power transistors, possibly because of the lower current demand. This way it doesn't need a voltage reference so the LED mod doesn't apply.

 

Right. Is there a way to find out / to measure the quality of that rail? Or can you ask Teradak?

It seems silly spending money on full linear ATX and then feed the USB card (most critical for SQ) dirty power.....

 

Thx for your time!

Hans

[Lowlands]

@Ben,

 

Thanks for the info on the mad panic crap shoot / Chinese new year. It explains why I recieved a shipping notofication 11 feb, but my PSU (on paper) has never left HK and there is no planned arrival date... We'll see...

[Lowlands]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]17003[/ATTACH]

 

Do I see 4 (!) LEDs? Are these part of the ' mod' ?

In that case, what rail is using the 4th LED? I assume the 12v, 5v and 3.3v are coming from the reg-boards on the side...

[Lowlands]

@Adam,

THE big 64m$ question: how does it sound on your pipeline compared to your previous capsv3 on the teddy? :-) (I know, apples & oranges, but want to know anyway)..

[Lowlands]

That's a 54w cpu by the looks of it, so I suspect you'll struggle to find a heatsink small enough to fit in the Silverstone that can dissipate that safely. I'm not sure the stock heatsink would be up to it without the fan. My 10w Celeron is running at 52 C on both cores and although its heatsink is small, I'm not sure its that much smaller than the i3 stock cooler. I guess the question is how much power does the i3 draw when playing music and will you ever push it harder than that?

 

+1

 

ML06 case is constrained in hight. If you want to go haswell / i3 (instead of SOC such as Bay Trail Mini-itx, in which case I would choose the ML03, nicer) you might want to consider as case with more hight and/or vertical mobo placement, allowing bigger cooler and proper airflow(without fan). Also, you might want to consider a 35w version of that i3 CPU. Also, unless you have HT plans with your build, your mobo has lots of features (components, power regulation) going unused... You might want to spend elsewhere.

[Lowlands]

Just recieved a Whatsapp form internal affairs (the other half) that a rather heavy package was delivered.. from HongKong..

(I'm at work...).

Anyway, I haven't started ordering my CAS parts yet. I only bought an FC5 EVO case (black) so far.....

[Lowlands]

I unpacked mine. All seems ok. Will not be able to fire it up until I have built the CAS for it...

One minor glitch: one of the black cables has come off one of the plugs of the loom. Should be an easy fix once I know where to put it back. Has anyone studied the colour coding of the wires of the loom yet?

[Lowlands]

I believe in the beginning of this group project we... or some people requested 5VSB on a separate line so that enables us to build battery system to feed USB card (or other things else)

 

Can anyone share who have done this? I think some (or many) of us did not plan to build this battery system when we first ordered Teradak PSU nor we have knowledge / experience on how to do this.

 

I myself just simply plug it in on my PPA usb card.... How much the sound would be different when using battery system and how to do it?

 

Marcell,

 

That was me...:-) And yes, I have a plan, but still need to start building the new CAS for my Teradak ATX 275. Problem is I am currently doing a complete overhaul of my entire audio stack (all but my DAC is up for replacement, so CAS, cables, AMPS, Speaks, the lot). So I will not be doing this anytime soon.

 

There are various ways to use the 5VSB:

A) Charge a battery. Then use that battery to feed either a USB card (such as the PPA) OR feed an SSD.

B) Feed that 5VSB to SSD or PPA directly.

 

Note(s):

 

Ad A)

If you use a plain USB power bank, many (if not all) of these have buck/booster section at the output. So they do not provide clean power. I would not use such config on the PPA. You CAN use a battery on your PPA, but I would use a booster/charger card before the battery, use a battery of higher voltage (>6V) and a quality voltage regulator on the output, feeding your PPA. That is a more complex config...

 

Ad B)

1. Using it on the PPA directly implies the PPA is ON, when the PSU is ON. You need to swith OFF the PSU after the powerdown cycle of your CAS is complete in order for the 5V to not get to you PPA card.... Also, understand that the 5VSB line is ALSO present in the main loom and in the large ATX plug feeding you mobo. It is likely used for little, but it is NOT an isolated 5V source.

2. Using the 5VSB directly on an SSD kills much of the benefit. KEY is getting the SSD off grid, hence feed it with a battery. Feeding the SSD with the 5VSB line will polute it and feed that polution back to the mobo.

 

In short: I would use it on a 5V USB battery bank and use that bank to feed the SSD.

To make sure the SSD is turned off, you will need one or two relais to switch the power to & from the battery. I plan to use two of these (one to cut the line feeding the battery and one to cut the line FROM the battery, feeding the SSD): EXAMPLE

 

My understanding is this relais can be switched using the 5V coming from the main loom (the 5V that is normally feeding the SSD is now used to switch on the battery power to the SSD).

 

Hope this makes sense. If not, you'll have to wait untill I have built & documented my own go at this...

 

Hans