How do you store DFF ( untagged ) files?

[bogi]

paul3000h, if you have downloaded the previous (v1.1) version of Miska's dff2dsf.exe, try it, if it has any relation to your issue. If would be good to know.

[paul3000h]

One possibility is that the player you use doesn't handle DSFs correctly... It must take into account that the last block is almost never full.

 

I have Foobar and exaSound e20 DAC. I often wonder if it is Foobar or dac but tick with the faulty Sonore conversion and now with dff2dsf conversion so I cannot tell but think it more likely the conversion. Would be helpful if others with different setup could test. (Playing quiet classical tracks at high volume, close to o db output from dac)

 

No tick at the end of the final track (8 In this case) even if moved in the playlist to have another track after it suggesting the tick is in the file. Moving tracks with ticks to be last in the playlist does not remove the tick.

 

Also the volume of the ticks is slightly different for every track.

[paul3000h]

paul3000h, the issue with CUE sheet si now clear. I have it already corrected, but the vrsion 1.1 doesn't contain yet the correction.

Please test the CUE sheet issue with ISO2DSF v1.1.1: https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B1IZPbDClIn6TEQyaFZuUkM1Uzg

 

Cue sheet and txt appear identical using v1.1.1 and identical appearance in Foobar ie no tags just the Titles (read from the file names) as before.

[bogi]

Cue sheet and txt appear identical using v1.1.1 and identical appearance in Foobar ie no tags just the Titles (read from the file names) as before.

 

I hope you are really testing with 1.1.1, because the code for generating CUE sheets is changed against 1.1.0. Please verify that carefully.

Please look at lines containing FILE in the generated CUE sheet and compare the filename in that lines with real filenames of DSF tracks. Please give here an example for one track. The file names in the CUE file should not contain other characters than alphanumeric, spaces, underscore and dash. I convert other characters to spaces.

[paul3000h]

Yes 1.1.1, I only changed to the new iso2dsf.exe as the iso2dsf.cfg never changed in 1.1.1. ?

Anna Moffo - Arias from Faust La boheme Dinorah Carmen Turandot Semiramide Lakme.cue.txt

Anna Moffo - Arias from Faust La boheme Dinorah Carmen Turandot Semiramide Lakme.txt

[bogi]

Thanks. The CUE file is as I expected. No cfg file change.

Please try to drag&drop the CUE sheet into Foobar playlist. In this way it works for me.

 

I have question about your DFF tracks. How were they exactly created in Sonore ISO2DSD?

Did you choose DSDIFF Edit Master, or Philips DSDIFF? Is that one DFF file, or DFF files per track?

[Miska]

I have Foobar and exaSound e20 DAC. I often wonder if it is Foobar or dac but tick with the faulty Sonore conversion and now with dff2dsf conversion so I cannot tell but think it more likely the conversion.

 

So the same tracks in DFF don't tick? Do you have DSF tracks that don't tick in your system and where did those originate from?

 

When there is no tick with DFF, I don't get tick with DSF either in my system. And there shouldn't be, because both contain exactly same data and same number of samples. I today again checked with dff2dsf v1.2.1.

[paul3000h]

Thanks. The CUE file is as I expected. No cfg file change.

Please try to drag&drop the CUE sheet into Foobar playlist. In this way it works for me.

 

I have question about your DFF tracks. How were they exactly created in Sonore ISO2DSD?

Did you choose DSDIFF Edit Master, or Philips DSDIFF? Is that one DFF file, or DFF files per track?

 

If I drag/drop .cue into foobar the tracks appear as cue extension ie I am playing from the cuesheet, see pic.

 

DFF tracks created in Sonore as Philips DSDIFF. 1 DFF files per 1 track.

[paul3000h]

So the same tracks in DFF don't tick? Do you have DSF tracks that don't tick in your system and where did those originate from?

 

When there is no tick with DFF, I don't get tick with DSF either in my system. And there shouldn't be, because both contain exactly same data and same number of samples. I today again checked with dff2dsf v1.2.1.

 

No DFF tracks tick. I only have DFS tracks I made with Sonore or ISO to DSF. A very occasional DFS does not tick. In pic track 8 DFS does not tick. See my post #152 above.

[paul3000h]

I have found some DFF's from 2L The Nordic Sound that also tick so I think it can be assumed that it could well be a Foobar or DAC issue until further corroboration from other Foobar users. Though in the recent Moffo conversions none of the DFF's click and all the DSF's click except track 8.

 

Please remember I am Playing quiet classical tracks at high volume, (close to o db output from dac) directly into a 300W Per Channel Bryston amp.

 

Also, for anyone else with similar problems I am now playing all SACD's direct from the iso's with perfect results, ie silence between tracks, having meticulously tagged them all with Foobar so in future could very easily and fairly quickly copy the Foobar .xml tags to DSF's (in Foobar as the tags are Foobars own solution).

 

Foobar handles transitions between tracks with WAV and Flac the same way as with ISO's ie completely silently.

 

The need for complete lack of ticks between tracks for me is really only for playing opera when tracks can change very rapidly and mid lyric and so ticks are out of the question.

[Miska]

I have found some DFF's from 2L The Nordic Sound that also tick so I think it can be assumed that it could well be a Foobar or DAC issue until further corroboration from other Foobar users. Though in the recent Moffo conversions none of the DFF's click and all the DSF's click except track 8.

 

DAC doesn't know at all that the track changed, last sample of the previous track is directly followed by first sample of the next track.

 

HQPlayer plays exactly this way in DSD transport mode as tracks are assumed to belong together. In playlist transport mode tracks are assumed not to belong together and extra processing is performed at the track transition to suppress clicks when switching between two unrelated tracks.

 

I suspect in your care, player is playing out the entire last block instead of considering it partial...

 

Also, for anyone else with similar problems I am now playing all SACD's direct from the iso's with perfect results, ie silence between tracks

 

I think this confirms that it's the player... Data and playback should be exactly same.

[bogi]

If I drag/drop .cue into foobar the tracks appear as cue extension ie I am playing from the cuesheet, see pic.

 

DFF tracks created in Sonore as Philips DSDIFF. 1 DFF files per 1 track.

 

Thanks. The CUE feature works how I implemented it. I use the column 'Codec' instead of 'Extension', then the correct audio file type is showed for CUE files.

 

You used the 'Philips DSDIFF' option. When I do it, set of DFF files is generated in album subdirectory and CUE file is generated in the ISO file directory (not in the album subdirectory). The generated CUE sheet is the same as for the 'DSDIFF Edit Master' option. It indexes a big DFF file, it doesn't reference track DFF files (only one FILE reference in the CUE sheet). The generated CUE is therefore usable only with the 'DSDIFF Edit Master' option. It's so in my case, so I'm not sure now, if we use the same sacd_extract (it's part of Sonore ISO2DSD). Could you pelase post here the CUE sheet, generated by Sonore ISO2DSD? It could help me to find the difference.

 

If you did tagging the DFF files in Foobar manually or using online services like freedb, that could be explanation for the difference. Foobar is able to tag DFF files, although no standard exists for that. To verify, if your DFF files are tagged, try to drag a DFF file from Windows Explorer and drop it to a playlist. If metadata will show in the corresponding columns, then your DFF file is tagged.

[bogi]

Also, for anyone else with similar problems I am now playing all SACD's direct from the iso's with perfect results, ie silence between tracks, having meticulously tagged them all with Foobar so in future could very easily and fairly quickly copy the Foobar .xml tags to DSF's (in Foobar as the tags are Foobars own solution).

 

Could you please give me an example, where do you find those .xml files? This topic is new for me, I would like to be more familiar with it.

[Synfreak]

Could you please give me an example, where do you find those .xml files? This topic is new for me, I would like to be more familiar with it.

 

I think he refers to the option to store tags in a linked file for SACD-ISOs (as the ISOs themselfes couldn't be tagged, obviously):

[sjg]

Hi Bogi, I have 2 feature requests for ISO2DSF.

 

1. It would be great if there were an option to keep the dff files created on the way to dsf.

 

2. Limit folder name length

 

many thanks, Stephanie

[paul3000h]

so I'm not sure now, if we use the same sacd_extract (it's part of Sonore ISO2DSD).

 

 

Could you pelase post here the CUE sheet, generated by Sonore ISO2DSD? It could help me to find the difference.

 

 

If you did tagging the DFF files in Foobar manually or using online services like freedb, that could be explanation for the difference. Foobar is able to tag DFF files, although no standard exists for that. To verify, if your DFF files are tagged, try to drag a DFF file from Windows Explorer and drop it to a playlist. If metadata will show in the corresponding columns, then your DFF file is tagged.

 

 

I also use sacd_extract (it's part of Sonore ISO2DSD).

 

 

See my post #148 for the cue created in Sonore.

 

 

 

When Sonore created the dff's it must have written the tags as the foobar pic in my post #159 shows the tags written in the dff's and I never wrote them.

[paul3000h]

I think he refers to the option to store tags in a linked file for SACD-ISOs (as the ISOs themselfes couldn't be tagged, obviously):

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14988[/ATTACH]

 

 

Yes correct.

 

I drag the isos's into foobar then they appear with every individual track listed separately.

 

I then write the tags (in properties same as for all files, wav, flac, dsf etc) Foobar then writes a xml file into the same folder as the iso is in. See example attached. Remove .txt as xml files barred.

Rome Opera Orchestra, Serafin, Anna Moffo - Arias.xml.txt

[paul3000h]

Hi Bogi, I have 2 feature requests for ISO2DSF.

 

1. It would be great if there were an option to keep the dff files created on the way to dsf.

 

2. Limit folder name length

 

many thanks, Stephanie

 

Agree good idea.

[ted_b]

As mentioned earlier but worth repeating. as with any part of the SACD ripping/extraction process, try to put your working extraction folder as close to the root as possible, so as to reduce the path name that Windows needs to deal with. Often ISO internal names are so damn long that if you have nested folders in your path name your can literally run out of characters in Windows.

[bogi]

I then write the tags (in properties same as for all files, wav, flac, dsf etc) Foobar then writes a xml file into the same folder as the iso is in. See example attached. Remove .txt as xml files barred.

 

Thanks for clarification. So your DFFs are probably tagged and that was the reason why they show differently in Foobar than untagged DSFs.

 

In the next version (which I will prepare probably during this weekend) I plan to implement automated tagging of the resulting DSF files.

[bogi]

Hi Bogi, I have 2 feature requests for ISO2DSF.

 

1. It would be great if there were an option to keep the dff files created on the way to dsf.

 

2. Limit folder name length

 

many thanks, Stephanie

 

I will do.

1. is easy to achieve, I will add an option into cfg file

2. is already implemented - see the last cfg file parameter

 

Now the album folder name (subfolder of ISO folder) is max. 100 characters by default, but you can lower it using that parameter.

[ted_b]

Something to know about using sacd_extract via Jesus's GUI (or any other sacd_extract comparison, but I use Jesus's cuz Paul commented on them) vs Bogi's process:

* if you try to do a DFF extraction without the DST checkbox checked (which Bogi defaults to in command line mode, aka the -c argument) the extraction will fly and finish in a few seconds, but the resultant DFF tracks may well click!!

 

I just spent the last hour or so comparing a Laura St John -Vivaldi ISO, which doesn't click as an ISO, doesn't click in Bogi's DFF or Miska-converted DSF output, doesn't click in Jesus's GUI with DST checked, but clearly clicks when extracting to DFF with no DST decompression. If you check the box you will get identical results to Bogi. So Paul's files may not be apples to apples. No efforts to use Miska DFF2DSF conversion will remove those clicks if the DFF extraction was done incorrectly up front.

[bogi]

if you try to do a DFF extraction without the DST checkbox checked (which Bogi defaults to in command line mode, aka the -c argument) the extraction will fly and finish in a few seconds, but the resultant DFF tracks may well click!!

That's 1st time I hear that DFF can also click. till now it was said that the click issue is related to sacd_extract -> DSF.

 

It's for me hard to understand the logic of English formulation "without the DST checkbox checked (which Bogi defaults to"

My ISO2DSF script always uses -c switch (convert DST to DSD) because Miskas DFF2DSF doesn't support DST.

 

I just spent the last hour or so comparing a Laura St John -Vivaldi ISO, which doesn't click as an ISO, doesn't click in Bogi's DFF or Miska-converted DSF output, doesn't click in Jesus's GUI with DST checked, but clearly clicks when extracting to DFF with no DST decompression. If you check the box you will get identical results to Bogi. So Paul's files may not be apples to apples.

 

Do you mean the clicks are related only to DST (compressed) SACDs? Are they related also to pure DSD ISOs (those which don't contain multichannel tracks)?

Or do you mean the DST checkbox has effect also in the case of DSD albums ???

 

No efforts to use Miska DFF2DSF conversion will remove those clicks if the DFF extraction was done incorrectly up front.

 

Incorrect extraction is meant the extraction with the DST checkbox unchecked. In the case of DST (compressed) album Miska's DFF2DSF cannot be used ... Thats leads me again to think, that the DST checkbox has effect also for uncompressed (DSD) SACDs.

 

Ted, please explain.

[ted_b]

Bogi,

Your solution ALWAYS uses DST decompression (the -c argument). Great! That is good! However, some don't, like when folks use the Sonore GUI and fail to check the DST checkbox (checking the box means using the -c argument). So then, when DST is not decompressed I have heard clicks at the beginning of tracks in DFF. Maybe Paul's comments about clicks in DFF was because maybe he didn't use the -c argument (i.e didn't check the box in Jesus's GUI). Weird I know, but I heard them myself today..clicks in DFF when not decompressing DST. And then, in that case, using Miska's converter is of no real use cuz the clicks are already there in DFF and remain there in DSF.

 

Make sense now?

[bogi]

Weird I know, but I heard them myself today..clicks in DFF when not decompressing DST. And then, in that case, using Miska's converter is of no real use cuz the clicks are already there in DFF and remain there in DSF.

 

Make sense now?

 

This part still doesn't make me sense. Miska's converter cannot be used to process DST, because it doesn't accept DST, but only DSD input. But you observed clicks only with DST. You didn't mention any clicks related to DSD - the only format DFF2DSF can use.

 

If the clicks are specific for DST format and don't occur with DSD, then Miska's DFF2DSF is not helpful in removing clicks. I didn't try if Audiogate is able to convert compressed DST from DFF to DSF.

If Miska's DFF2DSF doesn't address the click issue, then my ISO2DSF brings no advantage over Sonore ISO2DSD.

 

My basic questions are:

Are the clicks specic for DST? Do they never occur with DSD SACDs?

Is that ''DST click' specific for sacd_extract? Does it depend on player SW?