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How do you store DFF ( untagged ) files?


rodrigaj

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Please excuse me for forgetting to thank you! I get so into the moment when this kind of direct communication happens that I get all "facts-only". Please assume that I am grateful for all help I ever get! :)

Thank you!

 

I'm happy to get so nice feedback! :) It was very small change in the code. I will include it in the next release.

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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Same here, tried the updated iso2dsf.exe on the Machine Head example and it worked fine for both config options (7 tagged stereo, 10 tagged mch). Thanks Peter!

 

Ted, thanks for confirmation. :)

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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BTW.

Does anyone know if there is a specific problem with the album "Jazz at the Pawnshop Volume 2"? I have the 3 SACD+1 DVD 30th anniversary, and Vol.1 and Vol.3 gets relatively normal Tagging and naming, but Volume 2 gets no song-names extracted. Tagging isn't a big deal though, I can fix that manually. But it would be good to know if it's a known issue.

 

Agreed. Same here.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi all,

 

New member here. I just registered specifically to try and find out more information on this whole DSD clicks/ticks issue, and to share a recent finding of mine which may be significant. The inconsistent nature of the problem is really quite aggravating (the scientist side of me really wants to get to the bottom of this problem), and as far as I can tell from scouring the net/forums nobody has completely defined or eliminated the problem. I hope this is the right thread to air the following, so if not I apologise. I'll try and keep this concise.

 

First of all, does anyone know of any site/forum where the current state of understaning re: the DSD pops/ticks/clicks problem has attempted to be consolidated? If not, I think such a thing would be a really good idea (maybe a dedicated wiki etc?), as having a single repository of knowledge on the issue would be so helpful (although far easier said than done of course).

 

My own personal experience with this issue has been fairly typical I think. Most ISOs/DSF/DFF files exhibit the problem, but some are completely fine. Where there is a problem it usually involves only a very slight tick at the track transitions, which in most instances is tolerable. Sometimes the click is quite bad though. I'm not sure if the presence/lack of DST compression makes any difference in this regard; again there is no discernable pattern here that I can detect.

 

I have tried the most recent ISO2DSF/DFF-to-DSF tools discussed in this thread and in (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/dff-dsf-conversion-21715/), and although it mitigates the problem it doesn't always eliminate it entirely. For example, I just converted disc 1 of Rachel Podger's La Stravaganza SACD set, which contains some fairly bad examples of track change ticks, but the individual DSF files still display the ticks when played via foobar2000 or HQP (for some reason JRiver plays them fine in this case).

 

Whilst messing around today I discovered something interesting (alluded to above) which I can't recall ever reading before on these threads or elsewhere online. I extracted a few SACD ISOs (including the Podger one above) to single DFF Edit Master files plus cue sheet using SACD Extract 0.3.7 (flags: -2 -e -c -C -P). Now, when the resulting DFF files are loaded into a player using the cue sheets and played back, I get the clicks at the track transitions. However, loading and playing the single DFF file itself - or the corresponding DSF file produced with Miska's DFF to DSF tool - gives playback completely free of clicks where the track transitions would be. So, somehow the cue sheet itself is causing the clicks (and presumably the TOC in ISO files similarly produces the problem?). I have tried removing the INDEX 00 (i.e. pre-gap) entries in the cue sheets generated from SACD Extract, but this makes no difference. Does anyone know of this already, and/or have any insight into what's going on here? It's progress, but obviously loading a single huge file into a player with no separate tracks listed is hardly ideal.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

P.S. - I should have mentioned that in all the above cases I'm using native DSD output (not DoP) to the DAC.

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The clicks on track transitions depend also on DAC implementation, it's not only a format conversion issue. Particularly in DoP mode DAC switches between DSD - PCM - DSD on each track transition, as in DoP mode DAC cannot "know" what type will be the next track and PCM mode is default. When you play single 'edit master' file directly without CUE sheet, it is handled by player as a single track - player cannot know that it contains more tracks. So no track transitions occur. Maybe you are hearing that DSD - PCM - DSD transition between tracks. Many DACs solve it by means of using 'mute' during PCM/DSD transition. Some DACs are using hardware relay for that mute switch.

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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Thanks for the reply bogi.

 

I understand that switching between DSD and PCM modes can cause the click, but I don't think that is the issue as I am using native DSD output to the DAC (iFi Micro iDSD). Furthermore, when I just let the music play (i.e. not skipping tracks) I get the clicks between tracks of an ISO or a single DFF/DSF file loaded via a cue sheet. Am I to take it then that the software effectively reads the cue sheet of a DFF/DSF or TOC of an ISO as separate files, causing some kind of stop-start effect between tracks, and hence the click?

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Apologies for the double posting, but I just noticed another strange thing:

 

The single DFF Edit Master files created by SACD Extract somehow have the cue sheet data embedded within them as id3v2.3 tags, but only foobar2000 appears to read this information when the DFF file itself (not the cue file) is loaded into the playlist (HQP and JRiver just see one big track). What's more is that the track changes within these embedded-tag-DFF files are almost all click free; the odd one or two here and there still click... probably only a few% of the tracks, where before every track clicked. So... what is fundamentally different between the track transitions being embedded in the DFF file and having them referenced by an external cue file? Why the difference in clicking behaviour?

 

This is all quite bizarre. Food for thought anyway.

 

edit: I realised that the few track transitions which still click in the embedded-tag-DFF files are those which correspond to a change to a track with an INDEX 00 (pre-gap) entry in the cue sheet. Curiouser and curiouser.

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Apologies for the double posting, but I just noticed another strange thing:

 

The single DFF Edit Master files created by SACD Extract somehow have the cue sheet data embedded within them as id3v2.3 tags, but only foobar2000 appears to read this information when the DFF file itself (not the cue file) is loaded into the playlist (HQP and JRiver just see one big track). What's more is that the track changes within these embedded-tag-DFF files are almost all click free; the odd one or two here and there still click... probably only a few% of the tracks, where before every track clicked. So... what is fundamentally different between the track transitions being embedded in the DFF file and having them referenced by an external cue file? Why the difference in clicking behaviour?

 

This is all quite bizarre. Food for thought anyway.

 

edit: I realised that the few track transitions which still click in the embedded-tag-DFF files are those which correspond to a change to a track with an INDEX 00 (pre-gap) entry in the cue sheet. Curiouser and curiouser.

 

Hi Progfu,

 

Clicks exactly (time of each click) repeated for each time of playback?

 

Best regards,

Yuri

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
Offline conversion save energy and nature

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edit: I realised that the few track transitions which still click in the embedded-tag-DFF files are those which correspond to a change to a track with an INDEX 00 (pre-gap) entry in the cue sheet. Curiouser and curiouser.

 

I guess it's on a player implementation how these pregaps are handled. They could lead to DSD - PCM - DSD scenario.

 

DFF tagging with ID3 tags is unofficial and therefore it's support is very restricted. That's the reason why ISO2DSF exists.

 

I mean your issue could be primarily caused by implementation of DSD/PCM switching in your DAC. Maybe some SW players do some treatment how to eliminate these clicks, but I have no more information. Try to find relevant information about your DAC. I observed that these click issues were addressed in some firmware updates of some DACs ...

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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Hi Progfu,

 

Clicks exactly (time of each click) repeated for each time of playback?

 

Best regards,

Yuri

 

Hi. Thanks for the reply.

 

Yes, as I recall the click happened at the same time for a particular track change on repeated playback. I'll confirm for sure when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure that was the case.

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I guess it's on a player implementation how these pregaps are handled. They could lead to DSD - PCM - DSD scenario.

 

DFF tagging with ID3 tags is unofficial and therefore it's support is very restricted. That's the reason why ISO2DSF exists.

 

I mean your issue could be primarily caused by implementation of DSD/PCM switching in your DAC. Maybe some SW players do some treatment how to eliminate these clicks, but I have no more information. Try to find relevant information about your DAC. I observed that these click issues were addressed in some firmware updates of some DACs ...

 

Thanks. I'll try and find out more from iFi. Still, it would be interesting to see if others here can repeat these results with their setups.

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Hi. Thanks for the reply.

 

Yes, as I recall the click happened at the same time for a particular track change on repeated playback. I'll confirm for sure when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure that was the case.

 

If player don't re-initialize DAC driver, and able for gapless playback, shouldn't are problems with clicks.

 

Except possibly light noise splashes if output files are resampled during extraction without special processing.

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
Offline conversion save energy and nature

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  • 2 weeks later...

Anybody had a chance to try DSF Maker for OS X. It's $5 so I'd buy it and try it, but will remain separated from my hifi rig for a while.

I hope to extract DSF's from some ISO's without the cracking sound some have reported and hopefully maintaining some or all of the metadata already present in the ISO's.

I've also yet to try the DFF2DSF app.

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  • 1 month later...

Hi, I am trying to convert my SACD ISO files to DSF format using iso2dsf. However, when I run it from the command line using the following syntax: iso2dsf sacd.iso, I get the following:

 

Retrieving metadata...done!

PERFORMER: Unknown artist

TITLE: Unknown album

Extracting SACD ISO to DFF tracks:

'D:/SACD' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.

 

I have the full path of the SACD ISO in double quotes.

 

I also tried dragging and dropping the ISO onto iso2dsf and have the same issue.

 

I am running Windows 7.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Hammer.

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Hi, I am trying to convert my SACD ISO files to DSF format using iso2dsf. However, when I run it from the command line using the following syntax: iso2dsf sacd.iso, I get the following:

 

Retrieving metadata...done!

PERFORMER: Unknown artist

TITLE: Unknown album

Extracting SACD ISO to DFF tracks:

'D:/SACD' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.

 

I have the full path of the SACD ISO in double quotes.

 

I also tried dragging and dropping the ISO onto iso2dsf and have the same issue.

 

I am running Windows 7.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! Hammer.

 

Troubles occur in the case of long paths to ISO and extremely long metadata (album name, track names). That occurs mainly with classical music. Try to do 2 things:

- shorten the path to ISO as well as ISO name

- open cfg file in an editor and set lower the value of $albumtitle_length, for example

$albumtitle_length=10;

 

If that didn't help, then you are facing with some other issue.

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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May be your SACD ISO don't contain metadata?

May be trouble in destination format dff. Are you have extracted DFFs?

AuI ConverteR 48x44 - HD audio converter/optimizer for DAC of high resolution files

ISO, DSF, DFF (1-bit/D64/128/256/512/1024), wav, flac, aiff, alac,  safe CD ripper to PCM/DSF,

Seamless Album Conversion, AIFF, WAV, FLAC, DSF metadata editor, Mac & Windows
Offline conversion save energy and nature

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  • 2 months later...
Hi bogi

I can't manage your ISO2DSF to go on my WS2012R2, it's always 0xc000007b error...

I have Microsoft Visual C++ 2010 Service Pack 1 on Miska's link and Visual C++ 2013 too but still doesn't work.

What exact Visual C++ version should I add to bring it to work?

Any ideas please?

Thanks

 

Miska's link contains runtime required to run DFF2DSF from Signalyst. So you don't need to have the whole Microsoft Visual C++ installed. That small Microsoft Visual C++ runtime from Miska's link is sufficient, it is the right version you should have installed.

 

If installing runtime from Miska's link does not help: To isolate your issue, try to convert a DFF file of DSD (not DST) type by DFF2DSF from Signalyst. Does this bring the 0xc000007b error?

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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Miska's link contains runtime required to run DFF2DSF from Signalyst. So you don't need to have the whole Microsoft Visual C++ installed. That small Microsoft Visual C++ runtime from Miska's link is sufficient, it is the right version you should have installed.

 

If installing runtime from Miska's link does not help: To isolate your issue, try to convert a DFF file of DSD (not DST) type by DFF2DSF from Signalyst. Does this bring the 0xc000007b error?

 

Yes, exactly this brings the error, all goes well until the DFF2DSF conversion step, then it stops and error message flags...

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The only troubles with DFF2DSF I remember were caused by DST compressed file on DFF2DSF input. DFF2DSF supports only uncompressed DSD files. DFF2DSF is from Miska, you can ask him for support.

 

ISO2DSF always decompresses the SACD ISO content by means of sacd_extract -c switch.

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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Bogi and Ted,

Thanks for the excellent work and documentation again, makes installation a breeze.

I am mainly using foobar2000 as a library management too and HQP as the player.

The DSF files that I have created from ISO have a few missing metadata or tags sometimes.

And foobar2000 tagging function seems to be UNABLE to edit the tags. Can you guys confirm this?

I could not even edit the composer and genre tags. If thats indeed the case, is tag&rename the only option

on windows? Or should i edit the metadata tags with Yates on my MAC machine?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

- Late 2013 Macbook Pro 15" with retina display running OSX Mavericks, SSD, 16GB, Audirvana+, Alex Paychev tubed DAC (based on AKM 32bit DACs), iFi iDSD Micro, M2Tech HiFace EVO, Wireworld Starlight USB, Supratek Syrak Pre-amp, Primaluna Dialogue 7 monoblocks for winter and McIntosh 501's in the summer), NBS Monitor IC, Harmonic Technology Magic IC, Omega Mikro Planar speaker cable, Sonus Faber Amati Homage speakers, Sennheiser HD600, PS Audio Power Plant Premier, Shunyata Python CX power cords, CDs ripped with DbPoweramp into AIFFs, SACDs ripped with PS3

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OpusOne, foobar2000 is able to tag DSF files. I never had issues with it.

Another option for Windows is free MP3TAG. It is very easy to use.

i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500
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... And foobar2000 tagging function seems to be UNABLE to edit the tags. Can you guys confirm this?

I could not even edit the composer and genre tags. ...

 

I only use Foobar2000 for playing and managing my library including *.dsf and *.dff files, and never had a problem with tagging so far.

Esoterc SA-60 / Foobar2000 -> Mytek Stereo 192 DSD / Audio-GD NFB 28.38 -> MEG RL922K / AKG K500 / AKG K1000  / Audioquest Nighthawk / OPPO PM-2 / Sennheiser HD800 / Sennheiser Surrounder / Sony MA900 / STAX SR-303+SRM-323II

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