"It's the best" - Subjective or objective statement?

[shum3s]

I have a simple solution, In stead of debating what we think Chris meant by his words ...."the best dac on the market" (which by the way this thread has been very entertaining) What we are really trying to figure out is his 'authorial intent regarding his ending statement. Is that not the first place to begin in studying the written word? This reminds me of people who study the Bible for instance, trying to figure out what Jesus really meant by saying such in such. Scholars and regular folks like me have been debating wether or not Jesus was speaking literally or figurative or if he ever said those words in the first place. Therefore the debate over the veracity of Jesus teachings rages on to this very day. It would end a lot of confusion and debate if Jesus was around to day in person, and we could ask him, 'what did you really mean when you said such in such? But he is not here in the flesh; BUT the 'good news' Chris is here, he lives, in the flesh, why don't we ask him in person, through this wonderful forum. Chris what was your intent, what were you trying to covey by your ending statement ...."the best dac on the market"? Then we can move on and debate over his response. Good idea?

[Jud]

I have a simple solution, In stead of debating what we think Chris meant by his words ...."the best dac on the market" (which by the way this thread has been very entertaining) What we are really trying to figure out is his 'authorial intent regarding his ending statement. Is that not the first place to begin in studying the written word? This reminds me of people who study the Bible for instance, trying to figure out what Jesus really meant by saying such in such. [snip] Good idea?

 

Or we could do the opposite of the Biblical example - let the thread die and not resurrect it.

[alfe]

Why?now that we can ask Jesus ​chris to show us the way to digital heaven¨-)

[Paul R]

It's good you realize that most audiophile reviews are short on "facts".

 

A fact is something that is testable or verifiable. Such as "This DAC has the best THD spec ever of 0.000001%" or "This DAC has the best frequency response ever - being flat to 0.1dB all the way to 90kHz, yet the transient response is also super, based on how well it passes these square waves and pulses."

He could even say "I ABX tested this DAC and it beat the pants off my other $5000 DAC" and that would also be a fact that the two DACs at least sound different. The opinion part would be which sounds "better".

 

As it is, this review has no facts, just opinions on how good and awesome it sounds.

 

 

Oh, I see. Your *opinion* about the article is a fact but someone else's far more qualified opinion in the article is not? And this is, of course, because the person writing the article wrote something you choose to interpret in a way that you can use to draw attention to yourself.

 

Gah... Go look up the definition of the word "fact" - it isn't as narrow as you woukd have people believe. But you already know that don't you?

 

Folks can choose to believe or not believe what Chris wrote. The can even choose to believe (or disbelieve) it conditionally, until they can listen for themselves. Most folks know how to make those judgements for themselves, and neither require or desire a guru to make it for them. This is not a subject for Fox News* to try and rabble rouse about.

 

Paul

 

*Pick your favorite news channel to demonize...

[4est]

It is hard to believe that this thread has gone on for over 100 posts...

[bluesman]

It is hard to believe that this thread has gone on for over 100 posts...

But ya' gotta admit that it's better than Amazon Prime for great reading at no cost. I just can't decide in which category they'd put it - thriller? romance? science fiction?

[wisnon]

Why?now that we can ask Jesus ​chris to show us the way to digital heaven¨-)

 

Oh lawd, this thread is now officially pure entertainment! LoL

[4est]

A disaster film methinks, although I find it a tragedy that some are so hung up on simple vernacular.

[mav52]

No this thread is reminiscent of the TV Seinfeld, Often described as being "a show about nothing', pretty much describes this thread, a thread about nothing.

[joelha]

The reason I started this thread is noted at the end of my first post: "The question to me isn't whether these "best" statements are objective or subjective. The real question is, why do some people get so bugged about the distinction?"

The issue of objective vs. subjective can be debated endlessly for pages (and maybe it already has).

Personally, if Chris wants to say this DAC is the greatest component mankind will ever produce, I'm just not that concerned. I'll likely discount the review, but I'm not going to get very unhappy about the statement.

The question I hoped this thread might answer is, for those who do get that unhappy about the "best" statements, why do you get so unhappy?

What's the worst that comes from such a review?

Why is calling something the best that big of a deal?

Joel

[PeterSt]

Joel, are you asking AGAIN ?

[PeterSt]

This is not a subject for Fox News* to try and rabble rouse about.

 

Paul

 

*Pick your favorite news channel to demonize...

 

In the USA ? All of them !

[joelha]

I am, Peter.

For a manufacturer, I get the issue.

But the majority of the unhappiness doesn't come from manufacturer's.

It's seems to come from the hobbyists and that part of the issue doesn't seem to have been addressed very much.

It keeps on breaking down to terms and definitions.

I want to know why it all matters that much.

Joel

[PeterSt]

OK, fine :

 

for those who do get that unhappy about the "best" statements, why do you get so unhappy?

 

Because it can't be true with that super small research to begin with.

And allow me, I DO read things literally, which undoubtedly is related to a. me being Dutch, and c. I scoff so-called diplomacy like US guys think to get away with others' faults (this thread is full of the proof of that). No, not even your own faults - others will do that for you.

Make something up for b; Most probably this is because you can't even remotely sense the difference between "you" and "me".

 

 

What's the worst that comes from such a review?

That there has to be a second agenda. Period.

Hey, I can do that too I see now ! :)

 

Why is calling something the best that big of a deal?

Because (to me) it testifies that someone is just shouting something. Looks rather silly. And what about : I expected more (shown IQ) or something).

 

Done.

Next one please.

[PeterSt]

For a manufacturer, I get the issue.

But the majority of the unhappiness doesn't come from manufacturer's.

 

Hi Joel,

 

I don't read that as a manufacturer; I only told earlier on that those will be the most steamed about such a thing - and then I can take myself as an example, yes.

But this is crucial :

 

As a normal consumer I KNOW what futilities can be - no HAVE to be performed in order to make music sound right. Just follow the Phasure forum and see what all not is undertaken to create the very very best. It's one week this and the other week that. And already 6 months ago my own drum kit was indistinguishable from the speakers. Or the other way around.

That I coincidentally also create some gear is hardly related to that. It's about all what needs to be done and that it can't go without analyzers and such.

I, nowhere never ever visited any audio shop or random person where the sound was not like a drag, compared what "we" can do. A DRAG, clear ? This creates infinite distance.

 

Of course, what's also in my mind is that when the verdict of spoken DAC would be the truth, then it must really be a BEAST of goodies. But you know what ? That's only in my mind. Pure logic tells me that it won't be true at all. Statistics tell it from various angles to begin with.

 

And so my last post was a reflection from a consumer who *also* takes into account that it should be trusted, what's being said.

Peter

[PeterSt]

And so my last post was a reflection from a consumer who *also* takes into account that it should be trusted, what's being said.

 

Here I have a sad example of it, and possibly CA readers from countries concerned can confirm it :

 

It can happen that I, as a "manufacturer", get a request from Malaysia. Somehow there too live audiophiles. But no way any audition can be done there, and even obtaining something is a nightmare. So what happens ?

Whether I can record by microphone the sound of the whole system in order and send over the file.

 

Now THAT is sad, don't you think ? but it is the truth. Those guys can't do any better than this, and this is how they arrange for things.

 

Put this in the context of some authoritative site telling what's THE BEST.

Please.

[bluesman]

Because (to me) it testifies that someone is just shouting something. Looks rather silly. And what about : I expected more (shown IQ) or something).

As Maynard G Krebs might have said: like, who cares, Dobie? Life's too short to waste energy on things that simply don't matter. If silliness were food, there'd be no hunger in the world.

 

René Descartes had just finished eating dinner at his favorite restaurant, and his waiter asked if he'd like dessert. Descartes said, "I think not" - and disappeared.

 

Silly!

[Paul R]

But ya' gotta admit that it's better than Amazon Prime for great reading at no cost. I just can't decide in which category they'd put it - thriller? romance? science fiction?

 

My vote would be for Alternate History novel...

[Paul R]

The reason I started this thread is noted at the end of my first post: "The question to me isn't whether these "best" statements are objective or subjective. The real question is, why do some people get so bugged about the distinction?"

The issue of objective vs. subjective can be debated endlessly for pages (and maybe it already has).

Personally, if Chris wants to say this DAC is the greatest component mankind will ever produce, I'm just not that concerned. I'll likely discount the review, but I'm not going to get very unhappy about the statement.

The question I hoped this thread might answer is, for those who do get that unhappy about the "best" statements, why do you get so unhappy?

What's the worst that comes from such a review?

Why is calling something the best that big of a deal?

Joel

 

Oh, you wanted a serious answer.

 

People on internet forums feel a need to voice their opinions. At some previous time, someone - rightly or wrongly, probably wrongly... - shot down their opinion. They have therefor concluded that the proper and correct behavior when someone else voices an opinion is to shoot them down, unless those opinions were dictated by a deity.

 

It's a rationalized reaction to being insulted or otherwise mistreated at some point in the past. Which is why some people get "so bugged" about it.

 

Other folks see the whole thing with a different perspective, and can allow themselves to be convinced to another point of view, or not. Just as they choose.

 

It's a matter of respect in a way. When someone has been previously seriously disrespected, it is much more difficult for them to offer respect. Doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, or anything else.

 

The internet is a *rough* world, with literally millions of people who will argue with you over - well - *anything*. Almost as many of whom feel they are experts on a subject because they read a Wiki page.

 

Note that *almost* all the people here on CA do >>not<< fit into that model - generally speaking. Everyone gets grouchy now and then and takes a swipe at the person annoying them. Often, the target doesn't even know he or she is being annoying.

 

Hope that helps a bit.

 

You can sum it up by saying all people are sensitive and weird, at least occasionally. (Fact) But, despite all that, almost everyone is a endless source of fascinating opinions, ideas, and commentary. (Opinion)

 

Yours,

-Paul

[alfe]

In this thread all the reference DAC's that we are talking about are using PCM 1704 and that's a fact.

[Jud]

In this thread all the reference DAC's that we are talking about are using PCM 1704 and that's a fact.

 

My impression is that the Berkeley Reference does not use that DAC chip.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[spdif-usb]

My vote would be for Alternate History novel...

The Pulitzer Prizes | Citation

[alfe]

My impression is that the Berkeley Reference does not use that DAC chip

 

By reference I meant Phasure and Trinity they are the ones that Berkley was compared to.

[sandyk]

By reference I meant Phasure and Trinity they are the ones that Berkley was compared to.

 

Or in this case, weren't compared to ?

[beanbag]

Oh, I see. Your *opinion* about the article is a fact but someone else's far more qualified opinion in the article is not? And this is, of course, because the person writing the article wrote something you choose to interpret in a way that you can use to draw attention to yourself.

 

Gah... Go look up the definition of the word "fact" - it isn't as narrow as you woukd have people believe. But you already know that don't you?

 

I think your standards for what qualifies as "facts" are lower / more lax than mine.