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"It's the best" - Subjective or objective statement?


joelha

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Your logic was spot until your last sentence. You state "it's the validity or value of subjective reviews" which you credit and then go on to criticize those of us who question the validity of a review by the way it is written using such terms as "the best on the market". By your own tortuous logic you are making my point. Lol

 

It's the reader in effect who has the option to apply validity to the subjective viewpoint yes? The principles of the first ammendment still stand regardless if you agree with the viewpoint or not. And as such, it is your right or I'd even go as far as your responsibility to question that viewpoint you find counter to your own or those of others.

 

........but you could have done that in a clear, concise manner which would have been enough to make public your opposing viewpoint......and maybe you did. I don't know as the singular particulars of the origin is of little importance to me. The resulting thread and it's implications do in fact raise my eyebrows a bit.

 

Let's not forget what this site is and what it's about. It's the love of fine audio reproduction that brings us all here. Condemning the opinions of the founder and moderator does little to support the community as a whole. And we can't simply discredit Chris' opinion as from a subjective standpoint, his experiences do in fact represent a certain level of expertise. You can certainly disagree or challenge his view.....but you CANNOT object to it. That's something different entirely.

 

I hope you find this less torturous in it's delivery and content.

 

Enjoy.

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It's the reader in effect who has the option to apply validity to the subjective viewpoint yes? The principles of the first ammendment still stand regardless if you agree with the viewpoint or not. And as such, it is your right or I'd even go as far as your responsibility to question that viewpoint you find counter to your own or those of others.

 

........but you could have done that in a clear, concise manner which would have been enough to make public your opposing viewpoint......and maybe you did. I don't know as the singular particulars of the origin is of little importance to me. The resulting thread and it's implications do in fact raise my eyebrows a bit.

 

Let's not forget what this site is and what it's about. It's the love of fine audio reproduction that brings us all here. Condemning the opinions of the founder and moderator does little to support the community as a whole. And we can't simply discredit Chris' opinion as from a subjective standpoint, his experiences do in fact represent a certain level of expertise. You can certainly disagree or challenge his view.....but you CANNOT object to it. That's something different entirely.

 

I hope you find this less torturous in it's delivery and content.

 

Enjoy.

 

Trust me, I am not condemning him or this site. This site and its founder as well as a ton of other folks who post here have really helped me more than you can imagine.

 

My criticism is not in any way to mitigate Chris' enthusiasm for a product, in fact I enjoy it as from him it is genuine. I just don't want to see his reviews replicate what so many others have become, such as on TAS and Stereophile. My comments were just a small critique, nothing more.

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I've just reread my posts from earlier. I think I've been having a bad day as in several places I've wrote subjective where I mean objective and vice versa ... I suggest people just ignore what I write you'll all find it makes life simpler.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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One last thing I would like to say

 

This is THE BEST thread.

What are you comparing that to?

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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When a reviewer or a poster says something is "the best" and doesn't also add "in my opinion", "in my system", or some other similar qualifier, invariably some people take exception and some even get upset.

 

I'd love to hear from others about this because frankly I don't get it.

 

It seems pretty clear that if an individual is saying something is the best and gives no evidence or credentials for the position he's taking then his statement is offered as an opinion, not as a fact.

 

Bob from Dubuque, Iowa thinks a certain USB cable is the best and now everyone believes that statement is factual?

 

Are those who take issue with these statements really fearful that hoards of audiophiles will storm some retailer or on-line site to buy every one of these "best" components available just because someone they barely know (or don't know at all) says it's the best?

 

The question to me isn't whether these "best" statements are objective or subjective. The real question is, why do some people get so bugged about the distinction?

 

Joel

 

 

Well, Joelha, doesn't that post make you a champion of the obvious? A audio reviewer is a critic. In that respect, he's no different from a Broadway drama critic such as the late George S. Kaufman was, a movie critic such as Leonard Maltin, an automotive critic like the late Tom McCahill, or an audio critic such as Michael Fremer (or even Yours, Truly). All of these people's pronouncements are their opinions. You are free to agree, disagree or simply ignore anything they say. What makes them valuable in this society, is that we presume that they have a wider experience with whatever it is they critique than are the rest of us. A drama critic sees more plays than most of us, a film critic sees more films, and an audio reviewer has experience with a lot more equipment than the average audiophile. That means that these people are more likely to be able to distinguish good from bad than can the general population. That doesn't mean that they are always right, or that their tastes match our own. They don't have to. There is value even in a reviewer that you find you never agree with. For instance, there used to be a TV and film reviewer in TV guide named Judith Crist with whom I never agreed. If she liked a movie of TV show, I learned over the years that I'm probably safe in giving that show or film a miss. On the other hand, if she hated a show or a film, I found out that I probably liked it. So, in a negative way, even her opinions as a critic were valuable to me. Remember, it should be understood that everything that a critic says is their opinion. They don't need to preface every pronouncement with "In my humble opinion..." And, of course, that's my humble opinion :)

George

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This thread has been started obviously in response to my critique of Chris's review. From my perch, when someone makes an absolute statement like that, reviewer or otherwise, that person's opinion is suspect. What I find a little comical is how so many obsequious followers there are that it is considered sacrosanct to be critical of a reviewer, Chris in this case.

 

His words are not gospel. I criticized him when he claimed Magico were "great value".

 

Incidentally, this is not the first and surely won't be the last time a reviewer claims something is "the best".

 

When a statement that something is "the best" is made by a reviewer, by definition it is an opinion, no less so than the your negative remarks regarding Chris' review.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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When a statement that something is "the best" is made by a reviewer, by definition it is an opinion, no less so than the your negative remarks regarding Chris' review.

 

In my opinion you are clueless and wrong and that's THE BEST review of your negative remarks regarding my prior posts.

 

Incidentally are there "reviewing rules" that defines this somewhere or are you flying by the seat of your pants.

 

I thought the absurdity was over. Let the games continue.

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Fine arts critics and audiophile reviewers aren't analogous. The critic can experience the art simply by attending the show. However, reviewers cannot experience the music simply by acquiring the electronic gear. Music reproduction is MUCH more complicated than acquiring gear. The gear is NOT equivalent to the movie critic's movies or the play critic's plays. The gear doesn't produce the final product in a vacuum. You will need to speak for yourself here. I don't presume anyone's music reproduction experience is more valuable than my own.

 

 

Well, Joelha, doesn't that post make you a champion of the obvious? A audio reviewer is a critic. In that respect, he's no different from a Broadway drama critic such as the late George S. Kaufman was, a movie critic such as Leonard Maltin, an automotive critic like the late Tom McCahill, or an audio critic such as Michael Fremer (or even Yours, Truly). All of these people's pronouncements are their opinions. You are free to agree, disagree or simply ignore anything they say. What makes them valuable in this society, is that we presume that they have a wider experience with whatever it is they critique than are the rest of us. A drama critic sees more plays than most of us, a film critic sees more films, and an audio reviewer has experience with a lot more equipment than the average audiophile. That means that these people are more likely to be able to distinguish good from bad than can the general population. That doesn't mean that they are always right, or that their tastes match our own. They don't have to. There is value even in a reviewer that you find you never agree with. For instance, there used to be a TV and film reviewer in TV guide named Judith Crist with whom I never agreed. If she liked a movie of TV show, I learned over the years that I'm probably safe in giving that show or film a miss. On the other hand, if she hated a show or a film, I found out that I probably liked it. So, in a negative way, even her opinions as a critic were valuable to me. Remember, it should be understood that everything that a critic says is their opinion. They don't need to preface every pronouncement with "In my humble opinion..." And, of course, that's my humble opinion :)

THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX

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Having been a lawyer for almost 20 years, I spent a lot of time writing "opinions" that were extremely carefully worded to not offend anyone, to offer as many outs as possible should they be wrong, etc. What came out sounded a lot like your average politician, meaning it was useless for purposes of convincing me of anything.

 

I love the fact that Chris would come out and make that strong a statement, it is what we should want from our reviewers. Now is absolutely not the time to criticize, the time to criticize is if, or when, Chris reviews another DAC and again says "this is the "best" but does not, at that time say "replacing my previous favorite ..."

 

Having opinions is a good thing, voicing strongly is also a good thing, but being unwilling to be corrected or to change your mind is a bad thing.

 

What a boring place this would be if every opinion started "I currently believe, but subject to new facts and information, and this is only one person's current opinion, subject to change at any time, that the following might be true....

Synology NAS>i7-6700/32GB/NVIDIA QUADRO P4000 Win10>Qobuz+Tidal>Roon>HQPlayer>DSD512> Fiber Switch>Ultrarendu (NAA)>Holo Audio May KTE DAC> Bryston SP3 pre>Levinson No. 432 amps>Magnepan (MG20.1x2, CCR and MMC2x6)

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What a boring place this would be if every opinion started "I currently believe, but subject to new facts and information, and this is only one person's current opinion, subject to change at any time, that the following might be true....

 

+1

 

And if Chris wrote this way, another whiner would complain about that as well.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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+1

 

And if Chris wrote this way, another whiner would complain about that as well.

 

No other sycophant could have voiced your opinion better. The Best in fact, just my opinion.

 

So a person is a "whiner" if they dare criticize Chris? And to think I was accused of claiming there were those of you who prayed at the Chris altar.

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Having been a lawyer for almost 20 years, ....

Was at a cocktail party the other day and found myself next to a fellow and the conversation naturally ran to the classic question of "what do you do?"...he hesitated briefly then confided that he was the director of a local funeral home. After a moment of awkward silence, he confided that his day, tomorrow, was going to be quite hectic as they were to lay to rest a prominent local Lawyer.

Not knowing what to say, I simply asked why this would any different that any other burial when he mentioned that a lawyer is usually buried 10 to 15 feet below ground, this effort requiring a huge undertaking.

Well, I was shocked to say the least and simply asked, in all innocence, why.

He looked at and said, "we've finally learned that deep down they're not too bad". ;-)

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Was at a cocktail party the other day and found myself next to a fellow and the conversation naturally ran to the classic question of "what do you do?"...he hesitated briefly then confided that he was the director of a local funeral home. After a moment of awkward silence, he confided that his day, tomorrow, was going to be quite hectic as they were to lay to rest a prominent local Lawyer.

Not knowing what to say, I simply asked why this would any different that any other burial when he mentioned that a lawyer is usually buried 10 to 15 feet below ground, this effort requiring a huge undertaking.

Well, I was shocked to say the least and simply asked, in all innocence, why.

He looked at and said, "we've finally learned that deep down they're not too bad". ;-)

 

I warn you, we know more lawyer jokes than you do.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Why is it always true that lawyers love lawyer jokes....so spill!

 

Computer's being used for higher and better things (Gillian Welch) at the moment. But when I've got the keyboard back....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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No other sycophant could have voiced your opinion better. The Best in fact, just my opinion.

 

So a person is a "whiner" if they dare criticize Chris? And to think I was accused of claiming there were those of you who prayed at the Chris altar.

 

My intent was not really aimed at you but more a comment on the fact that no matter what Chris or anyone in his position does, there will be those who will nitpick and complain. If not you, then someone else.

Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby
Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley
Through the middle of my skull

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Well, Joelha, doesn't that post make you a champion of the obvious? A audio reviewer is a critic. In that respect, he's no different from a Broadway drama critic such as the late George S. Kaufman was, a movie critic such as Leonard Maltin, an automotive critic like the late Tom McCahill, or an audio critic such as Michael Fremer (or even Yours, Truly). All of these people's pronouncements are their opinions. You are free to agree, disagree or simply ignore anything they say. What makes them valuable in this society, is that we presume that they have a wider experience with whatever it is they critique than are the rest of us. A drama critic sees more plays than most of us, a film critic sees more films, and an audio reviewer has experience with a lot more equipment than the average audiophile. That means that these people are more likely to be able to distinguish good from bad than can the general population. That doesn't mean that they are always right, or that their tastes match our own. They don't have to. There is value even in a reviewer that you find you never agree with. For instance, there used to be a TV and film reviewer in TV guide named Judith Crist with whom I never agreed. If she liked a movie of TV show, I learned over the years that I'm probably safe in giving that show or film a miss. On the other hand, if she hated a show or a film, I found out that I probably liked it. So, in a negative way, even her opinions as a critic were valuable to me. Remember, it should be understood that everything that a critic says is their opinion. They don't need to preface every pronouncement with "In my humble opinion..." And, of course, that's my humble opinion :)

 

You're absolutely right on, George.

 

And that's a fact.:)

 

Joel

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Fine arts critics and audiophile reviewers aren't analogous. The critic can experience the art simply by attending the show. However, reviewers cannot experience the music simply by acquiring the electronic gear. Music reproduction is MUCH more complicated than acquiring gear. The gear is NOT equivalent to the movie critic's movies or the play critic's plays. The gear doesn't produce the final product in a vacuum. You will need to speak for yourself here. I don't presume anyone's music reproduction experience is more valuable than my own.

 

 

This thread seems to have more than the usual number of "champions of the obvious" today.

George

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My intent was not really aimed at you but more a comment on the fact that no matter what Chris or anyone in his position does, there will be those who will nitpick and complain. If not you, then someone else.

 

All this started as a result of one "critique" I made regarding, IMO an over the top statement, that sounded pretty "absolute" in the review under consideration by Chris.

 

People have opinions. Mine was just that I feel such comments mitigate the effectiveness of a review.

 

A post above likes thIS "absolute" stand. I wouldn't mind it IF as in the days of HP there were criticisms but in today's world everything is "the best", not just with this one review but basically all including the aforementioned Harley review in TAS.

 

Crucify me if you or others want but that is just my opinion about the reviewing process today.

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