direction please

[orgel]

David, thanks. So the Mac (per your suggestion) is the 'source' (a la CD player), and the Audirvana program on an iPad is my 'remote' for that 'source'? Then the NAS is my back up and that can be anywhere in the house? Currently I have my modem in an upstairs room, and AC/Ethernet adaptor and wireless to get the TV/Directv/Oppo online. The Oppo wouldn't connect reliably wirelessly, so I added the AC/Ethernet adaptor and it works reliably.

 

All good with the Oppo et al. hooked up via Ethernet.

 

Yes, the Mac is the source. Audirvana is playback software that runs on the Mac. Currently it can run in standalone mode, or it can be used in conjunction with iTunes, where Audirvana provides the playback engine but you can use iTunes as your music database. A forthcoming version of Audirvana will incorporate its own iTunes-like database, so iTunes won't be needed any longer. Last time I checked, the other Mac playback software I mentioned, BitPerfect, works only in conjunction with iTunes.

 

You mentioned that your setup includes video capability (as does mine), so it may be that you can control all your audio using just the Mac and a wireless keyboard & mouse/trackpad and using your TV as a monitor — the Mac mini, for example, conveniently has an HDMI port, so it's easy to hook up to a TV. This is mostly what I do currently.

 

If you prefer a tablet, that's also do-able. Apple has a free iPad app called "Remote" that you can use to control your software on the Mac, and the developer of Audirvana will have his own iPad app that you'll be able to use to control the forthcoming version of Audirvana.

 

As far as the NAS goes, it's certainly a nice thing to have for a large amount of data storage, and since it lives on the Ethernet, it can be located anywhere in your house. I wonder if it might not be overkill, though, given what I'm understanding about the current size of your library. I currently store about 1,200 albums ranging in format from Redbook (i.e., ripped CD's) through 24/192 PCM and DSD64 high-res formats, all on a 2-terabyte external hard drive. I have a second 2TB drive that I use for backup. Now the 2TB drives are pretty full, but the good news is that 4TB and 6TB drives are available now, and it looks like 8TB drives will be available soon. Two of these single drives, each in an appropriate enclosure, will be vastly cheaper than a NAS.

 

However, another nice application for a NAS is that you can use it in what's called a UPnP setup, which is a very different approach from what I'm describing. With luck, someone with some UPnP expertise will chime in to explain his, since frankly, I know next to nothing about it.

 

I really don't want to get into a pissing match with Sandy/Alex, but I just want to make some very general points: My recommendations are based on (1) stuff I have experience with, and (2) my impression that you want this system to be easy to set up and use.

 

Alex knows a lot about hacking electronics — I do not — and especially about power supplies (PSU's). My thinking, though, is that you can start off with something that's quite good but all off the shelf — no soldering irons or electronics courses required. It could be that you'll be happy with what you initially get, with perhaps some modest upgrades, for a long, long time. Or it could be that you'll fall down the rabbit hole, and exotic LPSU's, five-figure DACs, and boutique USB cables will take over your life. If the latter, then you'll be doing upgrades with some frequency, so you still might as well start off with something relatively simple and straightforward.

 

Remember to enjoy the music! That's what it's all about.

 

--David

[kumakuma]

Another good player option for the Mac is JRiver. It is a bit more work to set up but the JRemote app for the iPad is absolutely wonderful.

[sandyk]

, so you still might as well start off with something relatively simple and straightforward.

 

Remember to enjoy the music! That's what it's all about.

 

--David

David

As he has only 50 CDs to save, why not rip them directly to a USB memory stick and plug it directly into his Oppo 103 ?

He can still use the Oppo's R.C. to select the albums and tracks. I have grave reservations about SQ via mains Ethernet.

Far too many members seem to be throwing around huge amounts of money to get the best from the flawed USB medium, with quite often more spent on ancillaries than the DAC itself, simply to avoid getting up of their arses occasionally, and have access to 10s of 1,000s of music tracks that rarely, if ever, get played.

It doesn't surprise me that vinyl addicts get far more from their music collections than those with everything on tap at the push of a button, with all but favourite tracks rarely played. As your gear is further improved, you will often discover that there are gems among the tracks of a CD that didn't grab your attention originally. Today's version of TV channel hoppers ?

Alex

[english210]

Thanks David, this '101 level' discussion is where I am.

 

The main reason for this addition/switch to computer-as-a-source is because I plan to download music from now on. Whether it be individual tracks or albums, and rip all my current CD's, so all my music is in one place. My library is going to grow, consequently. When I used the term NAS, I was using it (probably incorrectly) to mean 'the box that holds all my music'. It seems that would be overkill, and the hard drive in the computer would have the space I need for now and the near future(?) I somehow suspect that the sound quality the computer put out if plugged directly in as a source would be substandard, so I would output it in digital and (for now) use the DAC in the AVR, as previously suggested. So the computer and Audirvana-type program are my immediate requirements. If I used Mac, then iTunes would be the library, if I used PC, then something like the JRiver program would be? Either way, the computer and program are my first considerations? How do the various streaming services play in? Spotify, etc. I have Pandora on the Oppo, but have read about the benefits of Spotify. Would that just be a program to add to the computer, or do those type of services require hardware as well...do they interface with the Audirvana/JRiver programs? I think I know the answers to some of this, but would rather ask than assume

 

Thank you all for your responses...

[baddog]

Just to keep the ball rolling, and there are lots of different options, this is one I am familiar with, depending on your technical level of comfort you can upgrade yourself or have a third party do it.

 

Mac Mini 2.3 Ghz base level configuration - $799

Bring Mac Mini up to 16GB memory - $199

Add Samsung 1 Terabyte SSD drive to Mac Mini (internal) for storage of music files - $438

Kit to add second internal drive to Mac Mini from OWC - $30

JRIVER Music Software to management the music files and playback music to your OPPO - $50

 

So that is $1320.

 

Add a DH LABS 1 Meter USB cable for $70

 

So Now $1390.

 

So that is one option. I had my Mac Mini setup with a small SSD Boot drive and an internal HD. Actually I eventually moved to a NAS for the music files, but that is overkill as a starter system.

 

Alternate starter system.

 

Everything as above but buy the Samsung 250GB SSD and use it as your boot drive Repurpose the 1 TB HD that comes with the Mac Mini as the second drive to store your music files. This saves you $320 so cost is $1070.

 

This is just to provide visibility to options, lots of other places you could invest in, or you could go with a PC. It should be whatever you are comfortable with!

 

I am certain other folks have great, easy to use recommendations as well.

 

Add $9.99 I believe and you can control with JRemote form your iPhone

[english210]

David

As he has only 50 CDs to save, why not rip them directly to a USB memory stick and plug it directly into his Oppo 103 ?

He can still use the Oppo's R.C. to select the albums and tracks. I have grave reservations about SQ via mains Ethernet.

Far too many members seem to be throwing around huge amounts of money to get the best from the flawed USB medium, with quite often more spent on ancillaries than the DAC itself, simply to avoid getting up of their arses occasionally, and have access to 10s of 1,000s of music tracks that rarely, if ever, get played.

It doesn't surprise me that vinyl addicts get far more from their music collections than those with everything on tap at the push of a button, with all but favourite tracks rarely played. As your gear is further improved, you will often discover that there are gems among the tracks of a CD that didn't grab your attention originally. Today's version of TV channel hoppers ?

Alex

Clarifying question: you mention using a memory stick plugged directly into the Oppo, and that makes sense, (or I can use the Yamaha RXA3010's USB input as was also suggested), but later you mentioned USB's inherent flaws....what am I missing?

[english210]

Alex, your other point is well taken, and if nothing else, my Pandora use has either introduced me to something new, or reminded me of forgotten gems.

 

To David's 'enjoy the music' comment, that's why I'm asking all this; these speakers have me going through my meager music collection like never before, finding new pleasures in long-dormant discs, reveling in the 'new' discoveries. I am not one to crave that elusive 5% at the top end of the diminishing returns scale, but I am looking for the most efficient ways to expand my library, and that requires this step into current technology...

[orgel]

As he has only 50 CDs to save, why not rip them directly to a USB memory stick and plug it directly into his Oppo 103 ?

He can still use the Oppo's R.C. to select the albums and tracks.

 

Yes, this is completely feasible so long as the library is pretty small. From what I've seen, though, as the collection grows, this becomes increasingly cumbersome. For me, the convenience offered by a nice music DBMS, like what you get with iTunes or JRiver, is a big part of what makes the "computer audiophile" experience so worthwhile. I like smart playlists, album art, the ability to store a lot of textual metadata, and especially the ability to bop around my collection with the greatest of ease.

 

While I agree that USB is probably not the ultimate solution for moving digital audio signals around, it's possible these days to get it working pretty good. I'm very happy with the way I currently have the Mytek set up — and that's compared with the FireWire connection I used previously. At a significantly lower price point, I think the iDSD nano or micro, used with the iUSBPower, probably sounds amazing, especially when you consider the cost. Just a couple of examples from a huge range of good solutions.

 

--David

[baddog]

David

Snip, snip...

 

It doesn't surprise me that vinyl addicts get far more from their music collections than those with everything on tap at the push of a button, with all but favourite tracks rarely played. As your gear is further improved, you will often discover that there are gems among the tracks of a CD that didn't grab your attention originally. Today's version of TV channel hoppers ?

Alex

 

This I completely agree with.

[sandyk]

Clarifying question: you mention using a memory stick plugged directly into the Oppo, and that makes sense, (or I can use the Yamaha RXA3010's USB input as was also suggested), but later you mentioned USB's inherent flaws....what am I missing?

USB Audio takes a lot of work, and often heaps of additional expense to get it working as it should. Some of this is due to the use of Switched Mode Power Supplies in the computer, and the fact that cheap USB leads have poor isolation between the D+ and D - (Data leads) and the noisy +5V supply from the PC. Most aftermarket USB leads have improved isolation between these leads, sometimes even using twin leads that only come together at the USB plugs. RF/EMI from the computer can also go along for the ride along with the binary data over the USB cable thus degrading the output from the DAC.

However, although these improved leads may result in markedly improved audio, it isn't the complete answer in itself.

That's also why so many are now using external Linear Power Supplies for their Mac Minis, and the reason for being of the JS2 Linear Power Supplies for the Mac Mini that were designed by well respected E.E. John Swenson along with Alex Crespi. (Superdad)

RF/EMI from the Switched Mode Power supply of the computer can also get back through the mains supply and degrade the performance of source components. Even a Broadband Modem connected to the PC can cause minor Audio degradation, as can too many non necessary background processes running in the PC. Even internal fans powered by Pulse Width Modulation techniques from the motherboard in order to reduce Motherboard power dissipation, where the output to the fan is square wave type pulses of around 25KiloHertz at currents as high as 500mA ( or more) can result in radiated RF/EMI, mainly from the fans, that reduces the signal to noise ratio of the audio. Alex Crespi can provide more details in this area. John Swenson has also designed a small Fan Controller PCB for the Mac Mini that converts these harmonic rich pulses to a variable quieter DC voltage to power the fans. Another cheaper, but not as quite as effective version is the inexpensive Fan Controller PCB from SOtM.

Why not try a few of your favourite CD tracks ripped directly to USB memory, and see if you can hear an improvement over your present route to your Oppo 103?

 

Regards

Alex

[kumakuma]

USB Audio takes a lot of work, and often heaps of additional expense to get it working as it should. Some of this is due to the use of Switched Mode Power Supplies in the computer, and the fact that cheap USB leads have poor isolation between the D+ and D - (Data leads) and the noisy +5V supply from the PC. Most aftermarket USB leads have improved isolation between these leads, sometimes even using twin leads that only come together at the USB plugs. RF/EMI from the computer can also go along for the ride along with the binary data over the USB cable thus degrading the output from the DAC.

However, although these improved leads may result in markedly improved audio, it isn't the complete answer in itself.

That's also why so many are now using external Linear Power Supplies for their Mac Minis, and the reason for being of the JS2 Linear Power Supplies for the Mac Mini that were designed by well respected E.E. John Swenson along with Alex Crespi. (Superdad)

RF/EMI from the Switched Mode Power supply of the computer can also get back through the mains supply and degrade the performance of source components. Even a Broadband Modem connected to the PC can cause minor Audio degradation, as can too many non necessary background processes running in the PC. Even internal fans powered by Pulse Width Modulation techniques from the motherboard in order to reduce Motherboard power dissipation, where the output to the fan is square wave type pulses of around 25KiloHertz at currents as high as 500mA ( or more) can result in radiated RF/EMI, mainly from the fans, that reduces the signal to noise ratio of the audio. Alex Crespi can provide more details in this area. John Swenson has also designed a small Fan Controller PCB for the Mac Mini that converts these harmonic rich pulses to a variable quieter DC voltage to power the fans. Another cheaper, but not as quite as effective version is the inexpensive Fan Controller PCB from SOtM.

Why not try a few of your favourite CD tracks ripped directly to USB memory, and see if you can hear an improvement over your present route to your Oppo 103?

 

Regards

Alex

 

Almost seems like you are trying to scare the OP way from computer-based audio...

[sandyk]

Almost seems like you are trying to scare the OP way from computer-based audio...

I am simply suggesting that he tries the K.I.S.S. method first. For extra storage an external HDD can be used, with a further advantage with both USB powered and external PSU varieties being powered by one of the available external linear PSUs instead of the cheap plugpacks supplied with some. As I am running low on internal storage I have a WD Element 3 TB USB3.0 HDD on the way. I intend replacing it's supplied plugpack with an external Linear regulated PSU, and use a modified USB cable with it. I could also use this with my Oppo103 if I chose to do so.

[orgel]

Almost seems like you are trying to scare the OP way from computer-based audio...

 

+1. This stuff can be as complicated as you want to make it, but it can also be pretty simple … except for speaker placement, which is a PITA. <insert appropriate emoticon here>

 

--David

[english210]

+1. This stuff can be as complicated as you want to make it, but it can also be pretty simple … except for speaker placement, which is a PITA. <insert appropriate emoticon here>

 

--David

Don't get me started!! I'm still working on that....and I probably will be for a while longer.

 

I get that there are almost as many options as there are people, and I'm not trying to nail it once and for all first time, but I am soaking in what everyone's saying, and feeling like I have more direction than when I started. Today's an off day, so I'll do more research....

 

So far, I have one suggestion to keep it really simple and just load my current current discs into a memory stick and plug it in to the Oppo or AVR, and then another to get a Mac mini, et al for around 1100-1400....

[orgel]

When I used the term NAS, I was using it (probably incorrectly) to mean 'the box that holds all my music'. It seems that would be overkill, and the hard drive in the computer would have the space I need for now and the near future(?)

 

For now, it seems like the internal drive in the computer would have ample space, and you could always add an external hard drive if you needed more space in the future. I hate to keep harping on this, but you also need some kind of backup drive. I find that these are useful for backups, since it's easy to swap out "bare" hard drives at will. Again, this is just one example.

 

I somehow suspect that the sound quality the computer put out if plugged directly in as a source would be substandard, so I would output it in digital and (for now) use the DAC in the AVR, as previously suggested.

 

Yes, at least initially, optical (TOSlink) out from the computer into the AVR is the easiest way to go. At some point, as an upgrade, you could think about an external DAC.

 

So the computer and Audirvana-type program are my immediate requirements. If I used Mac, then iTunes would be the library, if I used PC, then something like the JRiver program would be? Either way, the computer and program are my first considerations?

 

Yes, that's mostly right. If you used a Mac, and you elected to use Audirvana in iTunes mode, or BitPerfect, then iTunes would be your library manager, or there's also a Mac version of JRiver, and that would serve the same purpose. I'm not much of a Windows guy, but on the Windows side, it seems that JRiver is a very common choice, especially when ease of use is a factor.

 

How do the various streaming services play in? Spotify, etc. I have Pandora on the Oppo, but have read about the benefits of Spotify. Would that just be a program to add to the computer, or do those type of services require hardware as well...do they interface with the Audirvana/JRiver programs? I think I know the answers to some of this, but would rather ask than assume

 

No dice with Audirvana and the streaming services at this time, but I've seen users request this feature from the developer. I'm not a JRiver user, but a quick perusal of the website didn't reveal support for any of the streaming services. Maybe a JRiver power user will chime in. There's other Mac playback software, Pure Music and Amarra, that has a "pass-through" mode which will accommodate streams from the desktop applications from Pandora, Spotify, and the like.

 

Personally, I think the pass-through capability is most important when the quality of the stream is very high (e.g., with the Qobuz Hi-Fi service … if you can get it). I do use Spotify a bit, mostly to check out things I heard about but haven't heard, and when I do, I just use the Spotify desktop app.

 

Hope that answers your questions so far.

 

--David

[ericuco]

Almost seems like you are trying to scare the OP way from computer-based audio...

 

+1, here are my 2 cents.

 

1) For starters, get a computer (PC, Mac, etc.). A laptop makes everything convenient in that you have basically everything you need (e.g. monitor, keyboard, CD/DVD) in one device. Also small footprint.

 

You mentioned the Mac Mini (what I use) is also good but you will need to get a monitor (used $25 at computer repair shop) and keyboard ($15 bluetooth off ebay) and possibly a CD/DVD device. Might check the Apple refurbished units for a price break.

 

2) Use iTunes to rip the CD's you have but be sure to check the "Error Correction" box under Preferences. Save files in AIFF format. You can always convert to other formats later using dbPoweramp or the like. Store music on the internal HDD. Again, you can move files to an external HDD later.

 

3) Use iTunes to manage & play music.

 

4) Connect the computer to either the AV or an external DAC using USB in either case.

 

5) Enjoy the music.

 

Once you get all this working which should be fairly straight-forward, then you can start doing upgrades such as other music players (A+, JRiver, etc.), CD ripper (dbPoweramp - highly recommended but Windows only), external HDD for music and/or internal SSD, more RAM (8 - 16 GB), better DAC, amp, etc.

[orgel]

So far, I have one suggestion to keep it really simple and just load my current current discs into a memory stick and plug it in to the Oppo or AVR, and then another to get a Mac mini, et al for around 1100-1400....

 

Sandy's suggestion is a good one … for now … but I think you'll find that as your collection grows, this approach becomes pretty cumbersome. I have a friend with a very large library and a very good system, but no digital front end. He spends a lot of time swapping stuff on and off of USB sticks and plugging them into his (excellent) DAC. The sound is great, but watching him fiddle around with this stuff causes me something approaching physical pain.

 

Contrary to Sandy's assertions in this area, I have a moderately large digital music library, but I spend almost all of my time listening to complete albums (or for classical, complete compositions). On the other hand, if I want to queue up five different versions of "Manha de Carnaval" or "Embraceable You," it's pretty damned easy to do so, on impulse, in seconds, without leaving the "sweet spot" on my sofa. Try that with your memory sticks.

 

--David

[english210]

+1, here are my 2 cents.

 

1) For starters, get a computer (PC, Mac, etc.). A laptop makes everything convenient in that you have basically everything you need (e.g. monitor, keyboard, CD/DVD) in one device. Also small footprint.

 

You mentioned the Mac Mini (what I use) is also good but you will need to get a monitor (used $25 at computer repair shop) and keyboard ($15 bluetooth off ebay) and possibly a CD/DVD device. Might check the Apple refurbished units for a price break.

 

2) Use iTunes to rip the CD's you have but be sure to check the "Error Correction" box under Preferences. Save files in AIFF format. You can always convert to other formats later using dbPoweramp or the like. Store music on the internal HDD. Again, you can move files to an external HDD later.

 

3) Use iTunes to manage & play music.

 

4) Connect the computer to either the AV or an external DAC using USB in either case.

 

5) Enjoy the music.

 

Once you get all this working which should be fairly straight-forward, then you can start doing upgrades such as other music players (A+, JRiver, etc.), CD ripper (dbPoweramp - highly recommended but Windows only), external HDD for music and/or internal SSD, more RAM (8 - 16 GB), better DAC, amp, etc.

That seems to be the case, with the possibility of using the tv as the monitor(?) Then I can have any streaming services I use on the 'desktop', sent directly into the AVR, as well as navigating my stored library from my 'sweet spot'. As I succumb to upgraditis, I can add/adjust/upgrade components to scratch the itch...

Correct?

[kumakuma]

That seems to be the case, with the possibility of using the tv as the monitor(?) Then I can have any streaming services I use on the 'desktop', sent directly into the AVR, as well as navigating my stored library from my 'sweet spot'. As I succumb to upgraditis, I can add/adjust/upgrade components to scratch the itch...

Correct?

 

A couple of additional thoughts if you decide to go the Mac route:

 

- You don't necessarily need a monitor for your Mac Mini. I don't have one attached to mine. I control it using the Screen Sharing program on my main Mac and using Screens app on my iPad.

 

- XLD is a better solution for ripping CDs on a Mac than iTunes.

 

- If you use Jriver as your player/library manager, you don't need to use iTunes. You just need to tell JRiver where the files live on your hard drive

[ericuco]

That seems to be the case, with the possibility of using the tv as the monitor(?) Then I can have any streaming services I use on the 'desktop', sent directly into the AVR, as well as navigating my stored library from my 'sweet spot'. As I succumb to upgraditis, I can add/adjust/upgrade components to scratch the itch...

Correct?

 

I looked at your AV and it is not clear to me how you connect your computer. It looks like you would use the Ethernet port because the USB port on front seems limited to using an iPod. I am not familiar with how all this works so really can't advise you on how easy or difficult it might be.

 

That said, I would highly recommend jumping to an external DAC like the ifi Macro DAC ($299 from musicdirect). If you go this route, then you connect your computer to the DAC via standard USB cable. The DAC connects to the AV just like a CD player using the red & white (analog) outputs using standard interconnect cables.

 

As for the monitor, sure you could use your TV assuming your computer can output the appropriate video signal.

 

Note that this setup is far from optimized for SQ but at least you can get a working system that can be used as a baseline when you decide to do upgrades.

[orgel]

- XLD is a better solution for ripping CDs on a Mac than iTunes.

 

+1 on XLD. Tweakier than ripping with iTunes (but not difficult once you get it set up), much better at converting one format to another, and what I really like is that XLD gives you a log for each disc you've ripped so you' can be sure there were no errors. iTunes just assumes you don't care.

 

Since you have a TV in the room anyway, I still think that'll do fine as a monitor for whatever computer you get (unless it's a laptop, in which case it won't matter). Just be sure to get a computer with HDMI out. Even if you don't want to use the TV, you shouldn't need to buy a separate monitor, since you have the screen-sharing option that kumakuma pointed out.

 

--David

[orgel]

I looked at your AV and it is not clear to me how you connect your computer.

 

TOSlink would be the easiest way, IMO, although if english210 wanted to get fancy, he could use a USB-to-SPDIF converter.

 

An external DAC is not a bad idea at all, and if I were in that position, I'd get an inexpensive DAC before I went to a converter (although that's not what I did when I was in that position).

 

--David

[sandyk]

+1. This stuff can be as complicated as you want to make it, but it can also be pretty simple … except for speaker placement, which is a PITA. <insert appropriate emoticon here>

 

--David

 

It depends on whether you are willing to settle for similar, or slightly disappointing SQ to that from a mass produced CD player for the sake of convenience and piped "Muzac" throughout the house, or well above the SQ from any affordable CD player as many members here have been able to achieve..

[orgel]

It depends on whether you are willing to settle for similar, or slightly disappointing SQ to that from a mass produced CD player for the sake of convenience and piped "Muzac" throughout the house ...

 

Or maybe it depends on how much you dig hyperbole.

 

--David

[kumakuma]

It depends on whether you are willing to settle for similar, or slightly disappointing SQ to that from a mass produced CD player for the sake of convenience and piped "Muzac" throughout the house, or well above the SQ from any affordable CD player as many members here have been able to achieve..

 

The OP seems to have already made it clear that convenience is more important to him. I am not sure why you feel the need to ridicule his decision.