MSB Analog DAC/Luxman DA-6 kind of sonic signature for under 3000?

[unsleepable]

My vote goes to the Wadia 321. Retail in the US would be around $3.000. Performance and build quality to match.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]14180[/ATTACH]

 

It looks beautiful.

 

I was just checking the specs. Isn't 600 Ohm a very high output impedance?!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Perfect sense]

It looks beautiful.

 

I was just checking the specs. Isn't 600 Ohm a very high output impedance?!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yes, I would say it's relatively high.

[Elberoth]

The Chord Hugo is quite lush and tonally saturated.

 

It all depends on your definition of a word 'lush'.

 

A while back on AgoN forum, forum member Teajay, in the tread Reference DACS: An overall perspective, has posted this interesting evaluation of sonic signatures, or sonic flavors as he called them. He gruped the DACs into two molar categories regarding their overall sonic signature:

 

Category #1) These DACS "flavors" revolve around pristine clarity, fine sharp details,speed,very extended top/bottom frequencies,and great PRAT. These DACS never sound "etched" or "in your face" but are more "upfront" then "layed back" in their presentation. The DACS, to my ear's, that go into this bracket are Dcs,Ensemble,Meitner. My personnal favorite in this group is the Ensemble, which I owned for two years. These DACS remind me of the sonic signature of speakers such as Wilson,Thiel,Dynaudio, Focal/JM Labs.

 

Category #2) These DACS "flavors" revolve around a "musical/organic" sense, natural timbres,and an easy flowing liquidity. Their "less forward" presentation my give the impression of less detail, but I think in this case its an illusion fostered by their more relaxed/organic manner. The DACS, to my ear's, that go into this bracket are Audio Note,Zanden,Reimyo,Accustic Arts.

 

To my ears, the hord Hugo is clearly a flavor #1 DAC, as is the MSB, Auralic Vega or Berkelay Alpha.

 

The impression I got from reading the original post (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that the OP is looking more for a flavor #2.

 

Apart from those listed, other DACs that would fit into that category are Lampizator, Metronome, Jadis, Luxman and AMR.

[ted_b]

Teajay is a dear dear friend (we speak almost daily). I spent last Friday, on the way home from a vacation, at his place. We always discuss DACs in this realm. Nice that you listed it again.

 

I disagree and put both MSB and Hugo into category 2. The Vega and the Directstream are clear cat 1 as is Meitner. My opinions. By the way, heard Teajay's new upgraded Concert Fidelity DAC (chipset is now battery powered) and it is marvelous (redbook only). An ultimate Cat 2 DAC.

[Elberoth]

Great to hear he is well. I miss his insightful posts on Audiogon.

 

In terms of smoothness / liquidity - yes. But that has noting to do with color saturation (density) which was the main differentiator in Teajay's evaluation. Smoothness comes with lack of grain, and lack of grain comes from low jitter levels. All modern DACs using those ultra low phase noise - both flavour #1 and #2 - sound this smooth. That is the single biggest difference if you compare a modern DAC with one which is say 10+ years old.

 

But neither Hugo, nor Analog DAC, sound lush the way Lampi or Luxman do.

 

Both Hugo and Analog DACs are neutral sounding dacs, with very smooth presentation and good resolution. You cannot mistake their sound for any of the DACs listed as flavour #2.

[elf]

I wonder what category do any of the exaSound e22, Exogal Comet, Oppo HA-1, Lindemann musicbook:10, Audiobyte Black Dragon and Rockna Wavedream dacs, fall into.. or any of the advanced DSP, room correction DACs

[Kelly]

For the smooth, analog sound I would strongly consider (in fact I am considering) Red Wine Audio Bellina Pro. It does not currently offer DSD, but Vinnie is working on additing a DSD stage to it. It has a dedicated R2R dac for redbook and a Wolfson dac for up to 192/24. His products are upgradable to the latest edition for reasonable cost. They also have a tube stage. Everything is battery powered. Just about any modification or customization is possible. he is a very responsive guy.

[Kelly]

Would either of you be able to categorize the Ayre Qb-9DSD? From reviews and my brief listening I would expect it to fall somewhere in the middle, but maybe erring towards Cat 1?

 

Great to hear he is well. I miss his insightful posts on Audiogon.

 

In terms of smoothness / liquidity - yes. But that has noting to do with color saturation (density) which was the main differentiator in Teajay's evaluation. Smoothness comes with lack of grain, and lack of grain comes from low jitter levels. All modern DACs using those ultra low phase noise - both flavour #1 and #2 - sound this smooth. That is the single biggest difference if you compare a modern DAC with one which is say 10+ years old.

 

But neither Hugo, nor Analog DAC, sound lush the way Lampi or Luxman do.

 

Both Hugo and Analog DACs are neutral sounding dacs, with very smooth presentation and good resolution. You cannot mistake their sound for any of the DACs listed as flavour #2.

 

Teajay is a dear dear friend (we speak almost daily). I spent last Friday, on the way home from a vacation, at his place. We always discuss DACs in this realm. Nice that you listed it again.

 

I disagree and put both MSB and Hugo into category 2. The Vega and the Directstream are clear cat 1 as is Meitner. My opinions. By the way, heard Teajay's new upgraded Concert Fidelity DAC (chipset is now battery powered) and it is marvelous (redbook only). An ultimate Cat 2 DAC.

[Priaptor]

It all depends on your definition of a word 'lush'.

 

A while back on AgoN forum, forum member Teajay, in the tread Reference DACS: An overall perspective, has posted this interesting evaluation of sonic signatures, or sonic flavors as he called them. He gruped the DACs into two molar categories regarding their overall sonic signature:

 

Category #1) These DACS "flavors" revolve around pristine clarity, fine sharp details,speed,very extended top/bottom frequencies,and great PRAT. These DACS never sound "etched" or "in your face" but are more "upfront" then "layed back" in their presentation. The DACS, to my ear's, that go into this bracket are Dcs,Ensemble,Meitner. My personnal favorite in this group is the Ensemble, which I owned for two years. These DACS remind me of the sonic signature of speakers such as Wilson,Thiel,Dynaudio, Focal/JM Labs.

 

Category #2) These DACS "flavors" revolve around a "musical/organic" sense, natural timbres,and an easy flowing liquidity. Their "less forward" presentation my give the impression of less detail, but I think in this case its an illusion fostered by their more relaxed/organic manner. The DACS, to my ear's, that go into this bracket are Audio Note,Zanden,Reimyo,Accustic Arts.

 

To my ears, the hord Hugo is clearly a flavor #1 DAC, as is the MSB, Auralic Vega or Berkelay Alpha.

 

The impression I got from reading the original post (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that the OP is looking more for a flavor #2.

 

Apart from those listed, other DACs that would fit into that category are Lampizator, Metronome, Jadis, Luxman and AMR.

 

I am not sure about these so called categories but as an prior owner of a Meitner DAC2X for over a year, a current owner of and MSB Diamond Plus (and a tester of an MSB Analog for close to 3 months) and HUGO I can say unequivocally state that the HUGO is as different from the Meitner as oil and water and much closer in its sound signature to an MSB, the Analog in particular. What is your experience with the HUGO?

[ted_b]

Great to hear he is well. I miss his insightful posts on Audiogon.

 

In terms of smoothness / liquidity - yes. But that has noting to do with color saturation (density) which was the main differentiator in Teajay's evaluation. Smoothness comes with lack of grain, and lack of grain comes from low jitter levels. All modern DACs using those ultra low phase noise - both flavour #1 and #2 - sound this smooth. That is the single biggest difference if you compare a modern DAC with one which is say 10+ years old.

 

But neither Hugo, nor Analog DAC, sound lush the way Lampi or Luxman do.

 

Both Hugo and Analog DACs are neutral sounding dacs, with very smooth presentation and good resolution. You cannot mistake their sound for any of the DACs listed as flavour #2.

 

Adam, You seem to be saying I am wrong, when in fact my opinion is simply disagreeing with your opinion. There are few DACs I've ever heard that have the timbre density, organic quality of the Hugo and MSB Analog, although neither could be categorized as laid back or row 25 perspective. However, IMHO, the Hugo and MSB Analog could not be more different than the Meitner (owned an MA-1 for years) which Teajay and I agree as a poster child for Category 1. Maybe we are all taking other sonic attributes into consideration. Anyway, I appreciate the variety of opinions here...it's what makes this hobby so interesting.

 

BTW, I consider any DAC in either category to be high end and pushing modern DAC limits. These categories are not for the run of the mill (regardless of price).

[LewinskiH01]

However, IMHO, the Hugo and MSB Analog could not be more different than the Meitner (owned an MA-1 for years) which Teajay and I agree as a poster child for Category 1.

 

Oh! Is Teajay a forum member (under a different ID)? His thread on Audiogon about DACs was very helpful to me. Got me quite interested in Acoustic Arts.

[ALRAINBOW]

I always say we all hear different and this thread really prove the point me. Another point I would like to make is PCM and dsd. They are very different and some dacs clearly do much better with one than the other . Regarding lampi I agree it's lush . Owning a msb plat plus stack , a lampi big 7 , a psaudio DS , A Hugo and now an ifi dsd micro. Playing them side by side makes things very simple to know what does what better . But this is my choice or what I like. I regard people like ted and elbroth high. And yet they are a part . And I am more with elbroth but this I guess really does not mean as much anymore. Regarding the Hugo my view is it's nothing in the realm of a lampi or my msb. But again this seems confusing to me. Now my lampi big 7 I feel beats out my msb stack in someways and overall musical sounding. Where the Hugo does PCM nice but horrid dsd.

The same for the DS dac. Now the lampi and msb both play dsd and PCM excellent . But CPU used matters plenty so maybe it's me.

Al

[elf]

are there DACs under 3000 euros that sound lush, organic only on DSD, making an upsampling process, red book to dsd in jriver or hqplayer, a meaningful and worth while process for those particular cases?

Is there such a "cheap" workaround to achieve that lush, organic, tonally saturated sound and at the same time have the advantages of a good pre (maybe in the analog domain) and a HP amp. Balanced out and trigger out would also be nice, but not strictly necessary.

Did anyone experience any advantage in this regard on DACs that favour DSD reproduction vs Red Book?

[ALRAINBOW]

I can help in this. I have tried upsampling to dsd a few times as in testing . Using j river it never sounds good to me. Dsd is airy and a bit soft where PCM is harder when ever I tried to upsample it took the PCM and left it soft but not detailed as before . I have dine this witha few dacs I own. But many love to upsample , but I do not see the point. Lastly not all dacs do dsd and PCM good. So pic carefully.

Al

[elf]

Taking the edge off stuff is kinda what I'm looking for, but not if that translates in loss of detail. Not highlighting detail like needles is just fine, a natural, organic presentation is what I need. Is there a difference in the way Jriver upsamples, compared to HQPlayer? Has anyone tried both?

[wisnon]

Look up EuroDriver. He has reported on using both here at CA.

[ALRAINBOW]

Upsampling is also effected by CPU this is math calculations being made on the fly and heavy CPU usage. For me I have heard big differences between CPU,s used for audio purposes.

Choices is a word I use for what we like as individuals. And you are clear in yours. I do think putting a tube preamp will give you a more lush sound from any dac. Tubes when done clean sounds very good and seems to add a musicality sound to the mix. I found this out going between the msb plat and the lampi B7. Not sure how you feel about lampi but it seems to fit what I think is your choice. Also a lampi can be tube rolled a very nice option to allow you to tailer your sound to your choice Ina more exact manner. .

al

[Elberoth]

I had the Lampi Big 7 for a couple of days, but I didn't try to upsample. Łukasz promissed to loan me the lil Lampi DSD in the comming weeks, so I will check how it fares on DSD upsampled PCM. I was told on DSD both Big 7 and Lampi DSD are close, which would make the Lamp DSD an incredible deal.

[elf]

the only reason a DSD exclusive DAC does not appeal to me is the fact that I have my hi-fi system connected to the same laptop I work and watch movies on, so DSD+PCM is a must in order to accommodate all that.

[ALRAINBOW]

For me laptops do not make a good music server. The CPU is for mobile use. And slows down even though you set it to not. The sound with PCM is ok but DSD is for me a no go. For critical listening. And the tought of up sampling with one sounds not a prime choice to me.

Reg fhe B7. I did the up sample from my caps Xion CPU win 2012 and AO

IT Was not good for me.

Only the msb plat stack sounded good in up sample and it does it inside so no external CPU being used.

Al

[elf]

too bad Sony HAP-Z1ES doesn't have a USB in, it also seems to do PCM to DSD upsample internaly and has most of what I need, plus that lossy format enhancement DSEE and ability to play music from internal storage, for casual listening. Such a niche approach not to include digital inputs on that unit.

[wisnon]

too bad Sony HAP-Z1ES doesn't have a USB in, it also seems to do PCM to DSD upsample internaly and has most of what I need, plus that lossy format enhancement DSEE and ability to play music from internal storage, for casual listening. Such a niche approach not to include digital inputs on that unit.

 

You can get a Level 4 with the DSD module added on for not much more than a plain L4. Essentially 2 Dacs in the same Box.

[ted_b]

too bad Sony HAP-Z1ES doesn't have a USB in, it also seems to do PCM to DSD upsample internaly and has most of what I need, plus that lossy format enhancement DSEE and ability to play music from internal storage, for casual listening. Such a niche approach not to include digital inputs on that unit.

 

The HAP-Z1ES is an average, at best, DAC IMHO. It's features are somewhat interesting, but the sound is nothing like what you strive for in this thread.

[jtwrace]

The HAP-Z1ES is an average, at best, DAC IMHO. It's features are somewhat interesting, but the sound is nothing like what you strive for in this thread.

 

Finally someone comes out and says it.

[elf]

I think the Lampi L4 with DSD and pre, as well as a Bellina with pre and a future DSD module are out of my budget range, unfortunately. Maybe the Lampizator Amber DAC with added DSD module, but I don't know if they have a pre/volume option yet.. also no hp amp, very austere features generally, I can't even dream of a 12v trigger out.. but I guess it's the compromise one has to make to get that sound under a certain price point.

 

From what anybody knows by now, are any of these dacs in the "Category 2" of sound signatures described earlier?: McIntosh D-100,exaSound e22, Exogal Comet, Oppo HA-1, Lindemann musicbook:10, Audiobyte Black Dragon