Advice on speakers

[ecwl]

Having read everyone's comments, I find myself partially agreeing with everything but have a slightly different take on the situation. Warren already has a great system but would like to upgrade the Aerial Model 5 to something better. So it's safe to assume there's something about the sound in his system that he doesn't like. Because the speakers are only flat to about 60/70Hz, we probably should assume that the issue is the lack of low frequency. Even though technically, it is possible that seating position or speaker position are a factor. It's even possible that there is a displeasing room resonance peak at 125Hz or a huge trough at 80Hz making the speakers essentially start rolling off at 85-90Hz. But I think we should assume the main issue is that Warren prefers to have more bass.

 

I find in general, it is better to have more and lower bass with a flat frequency response, than to have the same rolloff bass frequency but with better made speakers. In the presumably more optimally setup demo rooms, I think that's why Warren finds the Aerial 7T to have greater muscle and range, even though the Magico S1 sounds better within its own frequency range. But in general, even though say Aerial 7T is flat from 28Hz and Magico S1 is flat from 32Hz in theory, you're probably comparing apples to oranges because Magico S1 is probably closer to the Aerial 6 in terms of frequency response but obviously, being significantly more expensive than Aerial 6, Magico performs better within those frequency ranges. So for Warren, the decision is really between an outstanding pair of speakers with a higher bass frequency rolloff or an excellent pair of speakers with a lower bass frequency rolloff.

 

However, once you have a pair of speakers in your home, you don't actually know how the bass response will behave. I think that's why many advocate for subwoofers because you theoretically have more flexibility in their placement, with them being separated from where the main speakers need to be and some even have DSP features to address room peaks and troughs. That's why I really like the idea of adding subwoofers and agree with others that technically, the best bang for your buck is actually to add 2 modest subwoofers to your Model 5. However, the first issue is WAF and I used to think 2 small subs wouldn't affect the decor much but they do. Especially when you have to be careful with their placement to optimize the sound. Moreover, without the right instruments, I find integrating subwoofers optimally to be challenging. You want to make sure the subwoofers crossover with your speakers optimally. But you also want to make sure the subwoofer is positioned so that it won't generate unpleasant resonance peaks or trough, e.g. a huge 45Hz peak. So I think realistically, Warren is correct that subwoofers are out.

 

But getting a pair of speakers with the deepest bass, be it Aerial 7T or even the Magico S3/S5 would not necessarily solve the problem. Assuming your amplifier can drive the speakers, while you don't have to deal with the crossover issue, you now have a fairly limited area (because of WAF) to position your new floorstanding loudspeakers which may or may not have bass peaks and troughs between 28-70Hz which may or may not become very obtrusive to the sound. Obviously, the deeper the bass goes for your speakers, the more chances they have to hit certain room resonance frequencies.

 

There are half-solutions to this aforementioned problem that people have indicated. After optimally placing your new speakers, if you have the instrument and software to measure the bass frequency response, you can at least compute a parametric EQ from the software to remove excessive bass peaks in Audirvana. Given the cost of a real-time analyzer is in the 3-figure range and your desired speakers are in the 5-figure range, I think the investment is worthwhile.

 

So the bottomline as mentioned is to choose between an outstanding pair of speakers with a higher bass frequency rolloff or an excellent pair of speakers with a lower bass frequency rolloff. Ultimately, only Warren can answer that question. I know if I were in his shoes, I would choose the S1's but I know many who would pick the 7T instead. Either way, I doubt the upgrade will disappoint.

[tranz]

Good points ecwl.

 

That is certainly an easy thing to try, to add a sub, as they are more readily available from shops to try at home. The only one I heard which was fast enough to keep up with the main speakers, mainly due to the way they attach to the power amp for signal, were the non-class D Rel Gibraltars.

 

Amarra IRC, essentially Dirac, provides a good way to record and visually display the room acoustics to see impact of speaker placement, sub effect and placement. Especially bass slam from Magicos can be on or off depending on placement.

[wdw]

So the bottomline as mentioned is to choose between an outstanding pair of speakers with a higher bass frequency rolloff or an excellent pair of speakers with a lower bass frequency rolloff. Ultimately, only Warren can answer that question. I know if I were in his shoes, I would choose the S1's but I know many who would pick the 7T instead. Either way, I doubt the upgrade will disappoint.

Just a great post, thanks...tis true, the expectation of greater delicacy and fidelity from the S1's still has me intrigued...and having used a two way for such a length of time ( the model 5's are just a great speaker...hear there is a new version coming which is similar in design to the new series, 6T and 7T) this change to another two way would be easy one, albeit one with far greater bass extension and frequency response all round...

Thanks

WW

[cjf]

I may be a bit biased with my recommendation but have you listened to the B&W 803 Diamonds?

 

Before I purchased mine the Ariel 7T was one of the others at the top of my list but I felt the B&W was more to my liking and almost undistinguishable next to the B&W 802 Diamond in terms of SQ. Another thing that sold me on the B&W over the others was that they build everything in house compared to many others who use someone else's drivers and make them work with the rest of the package.

 

As for the the 803D2 SQ, the bass output is impressive, Mid Range for days and a very sweet top end. As an added bonus, they just love to be beat on all day, all night and never break a sweat and the looks ain't bad either.

 

If they aren't your cup of tea then the Ariel 7T is a good choice also.

[ecwl]

I'm not familiar with the Aerial 7T sound. But I am more familiar with the Magico and Focal sound. And I've listened to multiple B&W 800 series speakers with their diamond tweeters. I would say the Magico/Focal beryllium tweeter sound is the diametric opposite of the diamond tweeters. So for Warren, I'd definitely say you should listen to the B&W 800 series with the diamond tweeters if you are thinking of getting them. As cjf says, it's a great sound but you'll have to like it.

[One and a half]

I may be a bit biased with my recommendation but have you listened to the B&W 803 Diamonds?

 

Before I purchased mine the Ariel 7T was one of the others at the top of my list but I felt the B&W was more to my liking and almost undistinguishable next to the B&W 802 Diamond in terms of SQ. Another thing that sold me on the B&W over the others was that they build everything in house compared to many others who use someone else's drivers and make them work with the rest of the package.

 

As for the the 803D2 SQ, the bass output is impressive, Mid Range for days and a very sweet top end. As an added bonus, they just love to be beat on all day, all night and never break a sweat and the looks ain't bad either.

 

If they aren't your cup of tea then the Ariel 7T is a good choice also.

 

I read through the B&W glossy brochure, and in the back fine print, the cable impedance is recommended to be lower than 0.1 Ohm. Just some rough calculations at 20kHz, you would need size 0 cable...is this for real, why do they quote such a figure?

[Kelly]

In the best of spirits I ask: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

 

I have never purchased speakers in the league that Warren is looking in, but when comparing seriously good components, I find that the subtle differences are hard to recall when not comparing side to side. I have heard the Aerial 7T but not the others. The Aerial is certainly no slouch in resolution or delicacy, and it absolutely kicks ass in bass extension and impact. I guess different things move different people, but for me the complete picture is more important than any one part, and the Aerial is one of the best speakers I've ever heard at any price in top-to-bottom extension and clarity.

[wdw]

My thanks for all your comments and suggestions. Bought a pair of Magicos. Take delivery later this week.

Warren

[Blake]

Congratulations Warren. Please give us a review once the S1's have settled in.