The Computer Audiophile Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I hate to say this, but that assertion is sort of like that obese guy who thinks he looks great in a speedo. You really didn't hate to say that. You could have made your point with professionalism rather than sophomoric sentences. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Lol, sure they will, especially with cryogenic quantum power cords. Some folks whose work with cables I've liked use cryogenic treatment, so I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand. On the other hand I don't have the scientific background to say whether or not it actually works or makes sense. Re the quantum stuff, even with what little I understand, I know that's nonsense. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
esldude Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Can someone draw the analog graph of an "inharmonic" sound with rise times faster than a full scale 20 khz wave which isn't above 20 khz and cannot be represented by Fourier analysis? Percussion I believe was mentioned. And if not can you stop spouting such non-sense? And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Can someone draw the analog graph of an "inharmonic" sound with rise times faster than a full scale 20 khz wave which isn't above 20 khz and cannot be represented by Fourier analysis? Percussion I believe was mentioned. And if not can you stop spouting such non-sense? I'm terrible at drawing, but I will try to find a relevant figure in one of the academic papers I've seen on resolving the problems of reproducing such sounds and provide a link to it. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 No figure, since non-IEEE members are restricted to just the abstract, but I think that will give you a little bit of a flavor: Percussive musical instrument sounds figure among the most challenging to model using sinusoids particularly due to the characteristic attack that features a sharp onset and transients. Attack transients present a highly nonstationary inharmonic behaviour that is very difficult to model with traditional sinusoidal models which use slowly varying sinusoids, commonly introducing an artifact known as preecho. In this work we use an adaptive sinusoidal model dubbed eaQHM to model percussive sounds from musical instruments such as plucked strings or percussion and investigate how eaQHM handles the sharp onsets and the nonstationary inharmonic nature of the attack transients. We show that adaptation renders a virtually perceptually identical sinusoidal representation of percussive sounds from different musical instruments, improving the Signal to Reconstruction Error Ratio (SRER) obtained with a traditional sinusoidal model. The result of a listening test revealed that the percussive sounds modeled with eaQHM were considered perceptually closer to the original sounds than their traditional-sinusoidal-modeled counterparts. Most listeners reported that they used the attack as cue. IEEE Xplore Abstract - Adaptive sinusoidal modeling of percussive musical instrument sounds One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
kennyb123 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 No figure, since non-IEEE members are restricted to just the abstract, but I think that will give you a little bit of a flavor Great find! Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Can someone draw the analog graph of an "inharmonic" sound with rise times faster than a full scale 20 khz wave which isn't above 20 khz and cannot be represented by Fourier analysis? Percussion I believe was mentioned. And if not can you stop spouting such non-sense? Hi Dennis. Just noticed the phrase I've bolded above. It doesn't make sense to speak of "above 20kHz" in this context for the same reason it is difficult or impossible to model these sounds with Fourier analysis: they don't have a fundamental pitch. The following article from Wikipedia may be helpful: Unpitched percussion instrument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Full pdf: link Thanks, will have to wait until I'm home - blocked here at work. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
wgscott Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 From Dropbox? I wouldn't be able to do any work without dropbox. I'm guessing this is the relevant figure (not having read the thread): Link to comment
Boris75 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Full pdf: link Many thanks. There is an audible problem with sinusoidal reconstruction of transients generated by percussive instruments when sampling at 16kHz. The question is: is there one at 44.1kHz? If yes, is there an audible problem at 88.2kHz? Link to comment
wgscott Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I'll be delighted to be his brother,aren't we all brothers in the audiophile community,peace and love Alex Not the women. Neither of them, in fact. Link to comment
wgscott Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Some folks whose work with cables I've liked use cryogenic treatment, so I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand. On the other hand I don't have the scientific background to say whether or not it actually works or makes sense. Re the quantum stuff, even with what little I understand, I know that's nonsense. + 6.62606957×10−34 Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Not quite there yet, since I don't happen to know whether any of the transients in the figure have a rise time faster than that of a 20kHz sine wave, but Figure 2 in the paper at the link below is interesting. The figure shows a graph for an original piece of audio, then the harmonic and transient components separated by filters. The paper's description of the way it characterizes musical notes is also of interest: A pitched music note, being typically a complex audio event, is viewed as containing a deterministic component of slowly-time varying harmonics, and an inharmonic component, consisting of both transient or impulsive structure and shaped noise. This is a similar characterization to...sinusoid+transient+residual models.... Link: http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~jes1/EveryDMRN05.pdf One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Many thanks. There is an audible problem with sinusoidal reconstruction of transients generated by percussive instruments when sampling at 16kHz. The question is: is there one at 44.1kHz? If yes, is there an audible problem at 88.2kHz? From what I've read, there may be at 44.1kHz, and the problem should not be as great at 88.2kHz, for the reason that humans appear to be able to detect transient changes in sound that occur in about half the time period taken by a 20kHz wave. The reproduction will still not be exact due to the inharmonic/unpitched nature of the sound, but a much better approximation can be built with sine waves approaching 44.1kHz than with sine waves approaching 22.05kHz. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 + 6.62606957×10−34 ker-Planck One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
esldude Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Hi Dennis. Just noticed the phrase I've bolded above. It doesn't make sense to speak of "above 20kHz" in this context for the same reason it is difficult or impossible to model these sounds with Fourier analysis: they don't have a fundamental pitch. The following article from Wikipedia may be helpful: Unpitched percussion instrument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Well, percussion and string plucks (as well as some brass instrument sounds) are inharmonic in the sense they aren't tuned or initially resonating sound until after the initial transient. These are broadband sounds similar to a single impulse which has all frequencies or at least a very broadband band of non-resonating frequencies. But neither our ears, nor our microphones respond to all of that. Which is why I mentioned 20 khz. And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 From Dropbox? I wouldn't be able to do any work without dropbox. I'm guessing this is the relevant figure (not havng tread the thread): [ATTACH=CONFIG]13697[/ATTACH] Another quote, which will probably use language more familiar to folks on the forum (substitute "pre-ringing " for "pre-echo"), from the same article: Percussive musical instrument sounds figure among the most challenging to model using sinusoids particularly due to the characteristic sharp onset and highly nonstationary nature of the attack transients. Traditional sinusoidal models fail to represent transients well with slowly-varying sinusoids and render a modeled sound whose onset is smeared in time (perceptually less sharp than the original) due to an artifact known as pre-echo. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Sorry to go on about this one particular article, but audibility of ringing (or its elimination) is often questioned. Percussion and plucked string recordings were played for listeners, then two re-syntheses were played, one using traditional filtering/reconstruction and the other using the method discussed in the article (which minimizes pre-ringing). Listeners then chose which of the re-syntheses they felt sounded most like the original. Here are the instruments and the percentages of listeners for each who selected the method discussed in the article as sounding more like the original recording (you can find the same information in Table 4 of the article, but I'm unable to retain the formatting if I try to copy and paste here): - Glockenspiel, 98% - Glockenspiel 2, 100% - Marimba, 98% - Vibraphone 98% - Vibraphone 2, 82% - Vibraphone 3, 98% - Xylophone, 98% - Piano, 86% - Celesta, 92% - Ukelele, 90% - Cello, 90% - Violin, 94% - Acoustic guitar, 90% - Classical guitar, 98% - Harpsichord, 94% - Harp, 96% - Harp 2, 96% - Harp 3, 92% - Mandolin, 92%. One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
monteverdi Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I remember reading about transient response of our auditory systems (ears + brain) some years ago. Any links to verify that that initial transients have higher time/frequency resolution than sustained tone? Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Different article this time on the importance of attack transients (actually not an article but a web page from a University of Oregon physics course): The course textbook notes (page 104) that experiments have been conducted where a digitally-pasted note-- comprising the attack transients of an oboe pasted in front of the sustained sound (recording) of a violin-- is played unidentified for people. It was found that most people identify the note as coming from an oboe, so the attack transient (front end of...) a musical sound is very important. Link: (quoted section is near bottom of page) Physics of Sound and Music-- PHYS 152-- Lecture 7 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Allan F Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Can we expect DSD 1024 or PCM 2822,4 and I'm sure some guys will hear the difference:) Are DSD256 and PCM384 files too small for you? "Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron Link to comment
gmgraves Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Hi Alex, You mention that those recordings have "content" above 20kHz but at what level? And can you actually hear it? Or reproduce it? Would it make sense to playback such recordings with speakers/tweeters that have a resonance peak of 5-15dB somewhere between 25 and 35kHz? Cheers, Ric Well, Ric, "Hearing it" is probably not what's going on (if anything). There is a theory that while the ear is not sensitive to ultrasonic frequencies above 20 KHz, the body can "sense" such sounds and that sensation forms part of the phenomenon that we consider the "live music" experience. I don't know whether or not that's true, but it doesn't seem like a reasonable hypothesis to me. To me it's like requiring that one's TV monitor be good at displaying ultraviolet radiation. One can't see it, and all it will do is give the viewer skin cancer. George Link to comment
gmgraves Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Ha! A close friend has Dukane Ionovac tweeters in one of his systems. It is a little eerie staring into the purple plasma... Yeah, but don't you just love the smell of ozone in the morning? It smells so clean and fresh, right up 'til the moment you croak. George Link to comment
Jud Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I remember reading about transient response of our auditory systems (ears + brain) some years ago. Any links to verify that that initial transients have higher time/frequency resolution than sustained tone? Shortest: http://artsandsciences.sc.edu/sites/default/files/event_files/January_31_2013.pdf Shorter: http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/FAQs.pdf Papers: http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Audibility-of-time-misalignment-of-acoustic-signals---Kunchur.pdf http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Probing-the-temporal-resolution-and-bandwidth-of-human-hearing--Kunchur.pdf http://boson.physics.sc.edu/~kunchur/papers/Temporal-resolution-by-bandwidth-restriction--Kunchur.pdf One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
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