Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC RS - Impressions and Information

[Johnny Moondog]

Berkeley Audio Design was founded by three alumni of Pacific Microsonics. Here's an article on what they achieved:

 

Pacific Microsonics - Company and Product History

 

The Model Two is still considered by many top recording and mastering engineers to be the best A-D converter ever made. I've met two audiophiles who have a Model Two in their über system, and Magico Technology often uses them to demo their loudspeakers! I was about to purchase a Model Two, but when the new Alpha DAC was announced, decided to wait...

[RealAudio]

Because cheaper isn't better. If you look at some of the professionals who make money, like Bob Ludwig, you'll see a dCS system that costs much more than $16,000.

 

Why do you think professional gear is better?

 

 

More expensive doesn't mean better either. More expensive may mean they are looking at lower product volumes and rather then make up for it by expanding the market they have decided to simply go for higher margins, margins that don't translate to better sound quality. In many way, the proliferation of these low volume high margin products is a symptom of an industry that is done for.

[The Computer Audiophile]

In many way, the proliferation of these low volume high margin products is a symptom of an industry that is done for.

How so? Every industry features high volume low margin and low volume high margin. Cars, watches, food, etc...

[RealAudio]

How so? Every industry features high volume low margin and low volume high margin. Cars, watches, food, etc...

 

 

Simple, bespoke may work for supercars and high end watches, but for consumer electronics the only thing it buys you is depreciation. I can show you auction results for watches and supercars that prove their long term worth, show me that for a piece of high end audio.

[Priaptor]

Simple, bespoke may work for supercars and high end watches, but for consumer electronics the only thing it buys you is depreciation. I can show you auction results for watches and supercars that prove their long term worth, show me that for a piece of high end audio.

 

I don't disagree that this industry is imploding and destroying itself but your reasoning is something I question. I don't see a valid comparison between exotic watches, cars or any collectible for that matter to high end audio gear. People buy audio gear to listen not to collect.

 

Personally I think Berkeley is one of the companies because of their limited distributor ship which is not pimped out is likely to survive.

 

I don't think anyone expects to make money in the future when they purchase audio gear in the present

[The Computer Audiophile]

Simple, bespoke may work for supercars and high end watches, but for consumer electronics the only thing it buys you is depreciation. I can show you auction results for watches and supercars that prove their long term worth, show me that for a piece of high end audio.

 

Every industry has bespoke. How is bespoke in audio an indication if decline. It's a symbol of health in food.

[christopher3393]

I recently missed out on winning this auction: Luxman L 100 Vintage Integrated Amplifier Very Clean | eBay

 

Now if you check this out you'll find it was an exceptional amp: Luxman L-100 on thevintageknob.org

 

and its retail cost was $995.00 which was considered extravagant and controversial at the time. It has been cared for over the years but not refurbished.

 

Now admittedly, dacs are in a very different category. But I can't help but think that if it sounds great now it should sound great for years to come. The problem has to do with the human tendency to want more, even if we could be very content with what we have.

 

So I look forward to the review and salute Berkeley Audio Design, even if I won't be able to afford this DAC for years. For me, it is truly all about equipment that allows me to connect with the music. The rest is up to my listening.

[RealAudio]

Every industry has bespoke. How is bespoke in audio an indication if decline. It's a symbol of health in food.

 

 

With 360 Whole Food stores and even Walmart selling organic and so many local farmers markets, its obvious the "bespoke" food movement is pushing larger volumes with lower margins. The proliferation of fine dining in every city proves "bespoke" restaurants are managing margins to increase their market.

[The Computer Audiophile]

With 360 Whole Food stores and even Walmart selling organic and so many local farmers markets, its obvious the "bespoke" food movement is pushing larger volumes with lower margins. The proliferation of fine dining in every city proves "bespoke" restaurants are managing margins to increase their market.

 

Ah OK.

[RealAudio]

I don't disagree that this industry is imploding and destroying itself but your reasoning is something I question. I don't see a valid comparison between exotic watches, cars or any collectible for that matter to high end audio gear. People buy audio gear to listen not to collect.

 

Personally I think Berkeley is one of the companies because of their limited distributor ship which is not pimped out is likely to survive.

 

I don't think anyone expects to make money in the future when they purchase audio gear in the present

 

Consider this. It would take 5 months of ComputerAudiophile gross revenue to buy the new Berkeley DAC. The entire business model is broken, if the audiophile vendors cared about expanding their market, CA revenue would be an order of magnitude higher.

 

 

computeraudiophile.com - Statistics, Traffic, SEO Information | website-statistics.info

[The Computer Audiophile]

Consider this. It would take 5 months of ComputerAudiophile gross revenue to buy the new Berkeley DAC. The entire business model is broken, if the audiophile vendors cared about expanding their market, CA revenue would be an order of magnitude higher.

 

 

computeraudiophile.com - Statistics, Traffic, SEO Information | website-statistics.info

Now I see why your opinions are so skewed compared to my own. I use facts to form mine. You use 100% incorrect conjecture based on zero facts. That site has everything incorrect and incorrect by quite a bit.

[RealAudio]

Now I see why your opinions are so skewed compared to my own. I use facts to form mine. You use 100% incorrect conjecture based on zero facts. That site has everything incorrect and incorrect by quite a bit.

 

 

Web site statistics aren't state secrets, what's a more accurate lookup site?

[kumakuma]

Web site statistics aren't state secrets, what's a more accurate lookup site?

 

I'm confused.

 

Why does Chris have to tell you anything about his business? Do you ask your friends and neighbors what their salaries are?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Web site statistics aren't state secrets, what's a more accurate lookup site?

There are no accurate lookup sites. Each site owner, if they are smart, runs a snippet of code behind the scenes that reports accurate stats. These stats are only available to the site owner. Without access to this code the lookup sites are just making guesses about traffic.

 

When it comes to monetization those sites take their guesses about traffic and then guess what the site could make based on a product like adsense. It's not possible for those sites to know how much each site owner charges for advertising when ads are sold directly (not through a service like adsense).

 

That said, kumakuma is 100% correct.

[Priaptor]

Consider this. It would take 5 months of ComputerAudiophile gross revenue to buy the new Berkeley DAC. The entire business model is broken, if the audiophile vendors cared about expanding their market, CA revenue would be an order of magnitude higher.

 

 

computeraudiophile.com - Statistics, Traffic, SEO Information | website-statistics.info

 

RA,

 

Your conclusion that the high end audio industry is going down the tubes, I agree with, how you got to that conclusion is where we disagree. Yes indeed the business model is broken, but it has nothing to do with the business model of Berkeley. I wish there were more like Berkeley that protected their product.

 

From my perch the biggest scam involves how manufacturers operate. First they sell to anyone, especially at shows. There are more "forums" that are nothing more than co-op buying of products on the cheap to bypass the middleman. Any "reviewer" gets product often for nothing for an "extended" period of time.

 

A dealer signing a franchise agreement is used and abused as many manufacturers could care less about who sells their product as long as it is sold. Most manufacturers change their product line like most people change their underwear and every time they change or if a dealer wants to take on a product line, the biggest customer of the manufacturer is not the enduser but those who sell his/her products.

 

Berkeley is quite the opposite. The don't release a new product every 6 months and are very strict how the public has access to it. Berkeley actually represents what was once a standard for the industry when it thrived.

 

There are just too many products out there. Prices are in the stratosphere; not that anyone pays anywhere near the list price because of the factors I list above.

 

Look at any "well respected" audio manufacturer out there. See how many dealers they have. Take your pick. Audio Research, Wilson, etc. To be a "dealer" you have to buy a significant amount of product for demo. Selling to "dealers" allow the manufacturers to make a profit before any enduser buys a single product. When all the middlemen are gone and products sold direct those products with the biggest demand will survive and those covering their overhead on sales to dealers will die.

 

Yeah, it is in a death spiral but, IMHO for much different reasons than you state.

[Superdad]

More expensive doesn't mean better either. More expensive may mean they are looking at lower product volumes and rather then make up for it by expanding the market they have decided to simply go for higher margins, margins that don't translate to better sound quality. In many way, the proliferation of these low volume high margin products is a symptom of an industry that is done for.

 

Having been a high-end manufacturer (Hovland Co.), having known the principals at many others, and once again going into manufacturing on my own, I can say that most of you have it backwards:

The high-volume brands realize much higher net profit margins than any low-volume high-end maker does (save for some speaker makers and the odd electronic or accessory brand). Most small firms have pretty high parts and labor COGS (cost of goods sold). And the decision to sell direct versus through dealers is almost always a wrenching all-or-nothing choice since a direct retail price leaves no room for dealers or overseas distributors (who demand 40% and 55-60% off respectively).

 

About the only place where the high-volume brands can be said to have low margins is at the dealer level. Big brands manage to sign dealers and distributors at lower discounts from list (20-35%).

 

Sorry to drag this thread back off topic, but I get tired of people believing that just because the retail price of a component is high the manufacturer is making a fat profit on each one. Yes, if a small maker can get their volume up on a product while employing the same size staff, then their profit picture will look better. But what it takes to get there and sustain that includes a ton of other expenses (advertising, continual R&D, trade shows, demo units, and on and on).

 

Just ask yourself, who is more profitable: a fast food franchise or a local fine restaurant? Which has the greater profit margin, a $4 hamburger or a $10 hamburger? You can't know just by looking at the price or the color of the pickle!

[worldcat]

Having been a high-end manufacturer (Hovland Co.), having known the principals at many others, and once again going into manufacturing on my own, I can say that most of you have it backwards:

The high-volume brands realize much higher net profit margins than any low-volume high-end maker does (save for some speaker makers and the odd electronic or accessory brand). Most small firms have pretty high parts and labor COGS (cost of goods sold). And the decision to sell direct versus through dealers is almost always a wrenching all-or-nothing choice since a direct retail price leaves no room for dealers or overseas distributors (who demand 40% and 55-60% off respectively).

 

About the only place where the high-volume brands can be said to have low margins is at the dealer level. Big brands manage to sign dealers and distributors at lower discounts from list (20-35%).

 

Sorry to drag this thread back off topic, but I get tired of people believing that just because the retail price of a component is high the manufacturer is making a fat profit on each one. Yes, if a small maker can get their volume up on a product while employing the same size staff, then their profit picture will look better. But what it takes to get there and sustain that includes a ton of other expenses (advertising, continual R&D, trade shows, demo units, and on and on).

 

Just ask yourself, who is more profitable: a fast food franchise or a local fine restaurant? Which has the greater profit margin, a $4 hamburger or a $10 hamburger? You can't know just by looking at the price or the color of the pickle!

 

Bottom line the price of a lot of high end products is asinine, spin it as you may, but the secondary market speaks for itself!!! *Meaning in correlation of how good it sounds which is a personnel preference.

 

Now Berkeley dacs have done well at holding value (especially for dacs) because of how they run their business and their sound for $. Secondary market tells a lot of what things should sell for.

[Kelly]

Wow this thread really took off. I think people underestimate what is really required to run a business that can stay afloat for a micro producer.

 

The used market doesn't necessarily tell you what things "should" sell for. If you can pay $14k for a DAC then you probably aren't in the market for second hand anything. Good for you if you can buy a Berkeley RS second hand, people making this kind of purchase aren't looking for something to move along in a year or two, especially considering it doesn't do the flavor-of-the-day things like DSD. There are plenty of companies out there selling snake oil in a fancy billet-milled case, but Berkeley is certainly not one of those.

 

The other side of the coin is that some cheap stuff is becoming absurdly good (case in point iFi nano and micro iDSD dacs.) The race to build really great stuff at the bottom and middle of the market means that to build truly outstanding things at the high end more extreme measures must be taken.

[Distinctive]

Sometimes a company's strategic intent is to make a statement model bringing confidence to their product line. Then they make a lower priced model that are stripped and performing just a tad worse. By doing this they make the lower priced model appear like a real steal for the amount of money spent. So the higher priced model is just some kind of a bait that very few will buy anyway.

I am not saying this is the case here, but I am a bit put off by all the comments that question things without bringing the marketing aspects into the equation.

It might be that it makes perfect sense after all..... (?)

[junker]

What's with all of the SWOT analysis, Porter's 5 Forces, and the 4 P's?

 

Back the the DAC impressions and information...

[worldcat]

Wow this thread really took off. I think people underestimate what is really required to run a business that can stay afloat for a micro producer.

 

The used market doesn't necessarily tell you what things "should" sell for. If you can pay $14k for a DAC then you probably aren't in the market for second hand anything. Good for you if you can buy a Berkeley RS second hand, people making this kind of purchase aren't looking for something to move along in a year or two, especially considering it doesn't do the flavor-of-the-day things like DSD. There are plenty of companies out there selling snake oil in a fancy billet-milled case, but Berkeley is certainly not one of those.

 

The other side of the coin is that some cheap stuff is becoming absurdly good (case in point iFi nano and micro iDSD dacs.) The race to build really great stuff at the bottom and middle of the market means that to build truly outstanding things at the high end more extreme measures must be taken.

 

I totally agree. I understand what it cost to run a business but to stay in business you have to sell product unless its a hobby or side business. This is such a small market of goods.

There are some incredibly good dacs under 6000 and 3500 for that matter.

 

I dont want to get any further off topic because I really want to hear how good that 16k dac is:)

[stevebythebay]

Having been a high-end manufacturer (Hovland Co.), having known the principals at many others, and once again going into manufacturing on my own, I can say that most of you have it backwards:

The high-volume brands realize much higher net profit margins than any low-volume high-end maker does (save for some speaker makers and the odd electronic or accessory brand). Most small firms have pretty high parts and labor COGS (cost of goods sold). And the decision to sell direct versus through dealers is almost always a wrenching all-or-nothing choice since a direct retail price leaves no room for dealers or overseas distributors (who demand 40% and 55-60% off respectively).

 

About the only place where the high-volume brands can be said to have low margins is at the dealer level. Big brands manage to sign dealers and distributors at lower discounts from list (20-35%).

 

Sorry to drag this thread back off topic, but I get tired of people believing that just because the retail price of a component is high the manufacturer is making a fat profit on each one. Yes, if a small maker can get their volume up on a product while employing the same size staff, then their profit picture will look better. But what it takes to get there and sustain that includes a ton of other expenses (advertising, continual R&D, trade shows, demo units, and on and on).

 

Just ask yourself, who is more profitable: a fast food franchise or a local fine restaurant? Which has the greater profit margin, a $4 hamburger or a $10 hamburger? You can't know just by looking at the price or the color of the pickle!

 

Absolutely. I got out of building my own amps/pre-amps years ago (not to mention making my own ice cream) as the costs were higher and results usually much less than I could acquire from others. And for a firm like Berkeley Audio they've little in a loss leader to help balance their bottom line.

 

Glad you're creating new products. I was a happy Hovland pre-amp user for years. Disappointed to see the brand go bye bye (as I was Hales and some other products I've owned). Still own, though no longer use, my Hovland (along with VTL 300's vintage late 80's). The action in digital is fast moving, so there's always a risk in acquiring technology in this space, versus more well established components.

[dummy]

If I remember correctly, the Alpha RS press release talked about a state of the art software to do the DSD to PCM conversion for this DAC. Then, I think I read that the actual software was JRiver.

 

Now that its out, can someone please enlighten me on that matter?

 

Thanks!

[pawel8]

Berkeley Audio advertises the new reference dac on this site,but there is no further information available from their web.

I just hope that the new dac does not reflect poor management.

[stevebythebay]

Had an opportunity to speak with Michael Ritter of Berkeley Audio Design recently. After analysis of software options for converting DSD to PCM the company decided that rather than do their own, they happily found that JRiver was the best solution out there, and one they could wholeheartedly support for their products. And if anyone's in the Bay Area next weekend, they can see, and hopefully hear, the new BADA RS at the California Audio Show in Millbrae at the Westin Hotel. Guess that they'll have some folks on hand to ask all your nitty gritty questions, or so I hope.