Light Harmonic, disappointing millionaires.

[stevebythebay]

I also ordered a Geek Out after funding closed and received it in May (silver). Then due to some confusion in their process, I received another one I hadn't paid for. Seems the right hand didn't know what the left hand had already done. I went and returned the new one on my dime.

 

I think LH got in over their heads. Their prior products are on the other extreme it seems - quite expensive and limited in production. So, this clearly was a huge learning experience. However, Larry and his team's messianic push to take what they've learned in creating a world class DAC to entry levels is commended. I'm happy with what I've received, and hoping that my future Geek Wave and Geek Source will fulfill my expectations of a world beating player and a source to replace my underutilized MacBook Pro (currently in service in the audio system).

[Audio_ELF]

Why are some people so strict on the crowdfunding business models?

I'm not strict on crowdfunding ... I'm strict in what I see are morals in business and that's how I (personally) see how morals and crowdfunding fit together.

 

There can be different approaches to crowdfundind; I see no other company in the hifi world listening to user requirements and ideas in the same way...

Well there was the iFi product developement discussion on HeadFi where no one had to commit money. Also some companies will listen to their customers postings in forums, etc which while not as open is another method of listening to the customer.

 

So yes there are different approaches to crowdfunding but crowdfunding is not the only way to listen to user requirements.

 

If there is a criticism to be made is that LH listens too much sometimes and when it happens it's product definition becomes a moving target, with not so good consequences on ability to deliver...

My biggest criticism of LH is that they started multiple projects before fulfilling the first...

[MikeJazz]

Well there was the iFi product developement discussion on HeadFi where no one had to commit money. Also some companies will listen to their customers postings in forums, etc which while not as open is another method of listening to the customer.

You are right, I concur there are several ways of listening to customers. crowdfunding is just one on them...

 

So yes there are different approaches to crowdfunding but crowdfunding is not the only way to listen to user requirements.

Agreed!

 

My biggest criticism of LH is that they started multiple projects before fulfilling the first...

Also Agreed.

The operational issues are very clear and I suspect also a result of rapidly expanding it's structure...

[rhmmmm]

I backed a Pulse X /f /i with LPS and I am not disappointed at all here.

 

Just for a frame of reference, I waited almost an additional YEAR for my Olive ONE from the timeline they originally set. I contributed around February, 2013 and finally received it about a month ago (Late June, 2014), when the original delivery timeframe was August, 2013. The hardware is nice, but software still has issues that they are actively working out. They are on fw version 0.24 currently, to give you an idea of the product's maturity in software.

 

If you read the FAQs on crowdfunding sites like Indiegogo and Kickstarter, there are no requirements for a well defined product or prototype (though it helps to get contributions). It is all about "vision". I advise prospective backers of any project who are new to crowdfunding to read the site FAQs and set low expectations on delivery and follow through since these campaigns are run mostly by individuals or inexperienced groups. It is a lot nicer to be surprised by a fast, quality return on your backing than to have high expectations and be disappointed.

 

To the OP...i probably would be a bit miffed if I purchased the product after the campaign and did not receive it, but it sounds like that was cleared up for you after some pestering.

[Sam Lord]

My biggest criticism of LH is that they started multiple projects before fulfilling the first...

 

Hammer meets nail.

 

And "disappointing millionaires" is an ignorant title for a company selling $1k USB cables!

 

OTOH, they have many satisfied customers, so I won't say they sell products of poor value.

[Leonardo Piras]

And "disappointing millionaires" is an ignorant title for a company selling $1k USB cables!

OTOH, they have many satisfied customers, so I won't say they sell products of poor value.

 

Why is it ignorant?

They have (hats off to them) been able to crowdfund very successful campaigns. I was expecting them to live up to their promise in terms of customer support and satisfaction. Nothing about products here.

I have received my geek out and it sounds really good, but this is not the matter.

[barrows]

I pre-ordered a Geek Out so long ago (a year, maybe longer...) that I cannot remember exactly when. In any case, my subsequent experience with LH customer service has been less than satisfying. While I do not believe there is any actual attempt to defraud customers, their inability to keep track of orders, not to mention deliver product in a timely fashion, is quite disturbing: especially considering their full speed ahead approach to "funding" and attempting to develop new products!

Their use of crowd funding is starting to resemble a ponzi scheme.

I still expect to receive my product, which I have been promised in, a few days, many times now...

[Superdad]

...especially considering their full speed ahead approach to "funding" and attempting to develop new products!

 

What I find astonishing is that for the Geek Pulse campaign--started in October 2013 and which they made 5 times more complicated than than Geek Out campaign--as of 2 weeks ago they were still making more design decisions and additions and waiting for another round of prototype boards. That campaign generated well over a million f-ing dollars. It is a DAC/headphone amp in a small desktop box. Really?!

 

Last official word was that shipments would begin at the end of August. But I am not holding my breath. I was looking forward to getting my Pulse (I backed at a good deal after backing the Geek Out which I gave to my daughter). I intend to use it for tunes in my workshop.

[MikeJazz]

I pre-ordered a Geek Out so long ago (a year, maybe longer...) that I cannot remember exactly when. In any case, my subsequent experience with LH customer service has been less than satisfying. While I do not believe there is any actual attempt to defraud customers, their inability to keep track of orders, not to mention deliver product in a timely fashion, is quite disturbing: especially considering their full speed ahead approach to "funding" and attempting to develop new products!

Their use of crowd funding is starting to resemble a ponzi scheme.

I still expect to receive my product, which I have been promised in, a few days, many times now...

 

Ponzi scheme - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Maybe you should contact them and open a ticket. I received mine several months ago!

About Ponzi, that is something quite different, if you check the definition. There are no "high returns" promissed expect for great sound!

[MikeJazz]

What I find astonishing is that for the Geek Pulse campaign--started in October 2013 and which they made 5 times more complicated than than Geek Out campaign--as of 2 weeks ago they were still making more design decisions and additions and waiting for another round of prototype boards. That campaign generated well over a million f-ing dollars. It is a DAC/headphone amp in a small desktop box. Really?!

 

Last official word was that shipments would begin at the end of August. But I am not holding my breath. I was looking forward to getting my Pulse (I backed at a good deal after backing the Geek Out which I gave to my daughter). I intend to use it for tunes in my workshop.

 

Geek Pulse Production Roadmap

 

There you can see the production roadmap...

It's now updated with some more details, apparently the femto delays is being used to do some more "tweaks". Hey, I am not too worried as for Geek Pulse I have less need for that than for Geek Out. Hope that Pulse comes as a very good performer...

 

"Update 7/23/2014: Shipments are expected to begin on week 4 of August 2014. At the anticipated assembly rate, we will finish shipping by week 3 of October 2014. We will ship in order of first contributions received."

 

If they haven't even ordered the components for the final board, we should expect more delay... :-(

[rhmmmm]

A new update today:

 

Update 8/07/2014: We've been doing some final tweaking to the Pulse, Pulse X, and Pulse S boards this week and have applied the tweaks to one more Prototype board. The new board's schematic and Gerber layout are done and have been sent to the PCB fabrication shop. The reason we decided to do this is because femto clock shipments have been delayed once again, so we have a chance to sneak in one more improvement to the design. Femto clocks are scheduled to arrive on August 18th now. We don't think this will affect the shipping schedule.

[Sam Lord]

Why is it ignorant?

 

...a company selling $1k USB cables!

 

The title implies that millionaires like to spend lots of money on gear, and resent the appearance of inexpensive products that sound as good or better. The thread title is an insult, though sometimes accurate. A $1k USB cable is certainly for wealthy people who are willing to spend a lot on audio. Like many high-end audio companies, LH still caters mostly to millionaires.

 

I don't have a horse in this race, except that I donated a little to the LH crowdsource campaign and hope to benefit someday. There is nothing wrong with the thread, nor do I have a reason to criticize any LH products. I just object to the title.

 

FWIW, I'm thrilled with the appearance of all the new, affordable, and extremely musical DACs.

[rhmmmm]

The title implies that millionaires like to spend lots of money on gear, and resent the appearance of inexpensive products that sound as good or better. The thread title is an insult, though sometimes accurate.

 

Does it mean that? I interpreted the title as the OP saying that LH, despite making millions in the campaign, is disappointing its customers with lackluster customer service. That is, in short, the theme of the first post of this thread. I haven't seen references to what you are inferring above from the OP's comments. It's not that LH is disappointing (verb) customers who are millionaires...it is that LH is now a group of millionaires themselves through money raised through the campaign and that the way the company is handling this success is disappointing (adjective use). My guess is that the simple title and comma usage gave you a different impression.

[Leonardo Piras]

The title implies that millionaires like to spend lots of money on gear, and resent the appearance of inexpensive products that sound as good or better.

 

The title implies only that LH's made lots of money out of their crowdfunding campaigns, which is in my opinion good for this industry as a whole, but turned out to be somehow lagging in customer support, shipment and product development timing.

[Jud]

My guess is that the simple title and comma usage gave you a different impression.

 

Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation: Lynne Truss: 9781592402038: Amazon.com: Books

[Melvin]

Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation: Lynne Truss: 9781592402038: Amazon.com: Books

 

Thanks for posting this Jud! Just finished downloading.

[Leonardo Piras]

Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation: Lynne Truss: 9781592402038: Amazon.com: Books

 

I apologise for any misunderstanding. English is not my native language, as you can easily tell

[Jud]

I apologise for any misunderstanding. English is not my native language, as you can easily tell

 

Leonardo, there is no fault here. I interpreted your title as you intended. But English can be quite ambiguous for native speakers as well as others, and so it is also understandable that Sam took a different meaning from it.

 

I linked to the book because, along with teaching proper punctuation, it provides many amusing examples of such ambiguities.

[Audio_ELF]

I linked to the book because, along with teaching proper punctuation, it provides many amusing examples of such ambiguities.

I would suggest it does more of the latter (provide amusement) than the former (teaching proper punctuation)!

[MikeJazz]

...it is that LH is now a group of millionaires themselves through money raised through the campaign and that the way the company is handling this success is disappointing (adjective use). My guess is that the simple title and comma usage gave you a different impression.

 

So, let me get this straight.

 

Let's say you are a distributor of a very special organic cheese to the whole united states. So you accept orders based

on down payments made by your customers (you are a very tallented cheese maker, of course!).

 

Let's say you have a lot of standing orders and down payments of 10 million USD.

 

You consider yourself a millionaire????

I would say yes, if you get your customers money and runnaway...

 

Otherwise you just have 10 million USD that will pay for all your costs to fulfill those orders, and hopefully will also enable you to take a profit.

 

So often people forget that perks money on the campaigns is needed and used to pay for the cost of procurement, manufacturing and distribution of the same perks. Hope they do a nice margin on that operation but I am not seeing how they will become millionaires!

[Jud]

I would suggest it does more of the latter (provide amusement) than the former (teaching proper punctuation)!

 

Admirably punctuated (comma) Eloise.

[Sam Lord]

Does it mean that? I interpreted the title as the OP saying that LH, despite making millions in the campaign, is disappointing its customers with lackluster customer service. That is, in short, the theme of the first post of this thread. I haven't seen references to what you are inferring above from the OP's comments. It's not that LH is disappointing (verb) customers who are millionaires...it is that LH is now a group of millionaires themselves through money raised through the campaign and that the way the company is handling this success is disappointing (adjective use). My guess is that the simple title and comma usage gave you a different impression.

 

Right you are, exactly. Thanks.

 

The title implies only that LH's made lots of money out of their crowdfunding campaigns, which is in my opinion good for this industry as a whole, but turned out to be somehow lagging in customer support, shipment and product development timing.

 

Sorry Leonardo, I should have looked at your first post. I've been battling a serious fever; when that happens I get delusions (seriously) that I'm Don Quixote. Please accept my apology.

[Superdad]

I've been battling a serious fever; when that happens I get delusions (seriously) that I'm Don Quixote. Please accept my apology.

 

Sorry to hear you are sick and far from home. We hope you travel back safely and have a swift recovery. (Unless you are coming back from Liberia, in which case please stay put.)

[sandyk]

Hi Alex C

Now , I am REALLY going to put you on the spot.(grin)

Since plugging in a JS2 PSU to your Mac Mini, have you tried comparing various USB cables ?

I believe that many would like to know if a far better power supply for a computer markedly reduces the perceived SQ differences between various USB cables.

Kind Regards

Alex K

[Superdad]

Hi Alex C

Now , I am REALLY going to put you on the spot.(grin)

Since plugging in a JS2 PSU to your Mac Mini, have you tried comparing various USB cables ?

I believe that many would like to know if a far better power supply for a computer markedly reduces the perceived SQ differences between various USB cables.

Kind Regards

Alex K

 

Talk about completely off topic Mr. K! What in the world does this have to do with LH?

 

But to briefly answer your question: NO. An improved PS--or any other improved link in the entire audio chain--makes differences MORE apparent, not less. In fact, due to the addition of our Mac mini Linear Fan Controller--in my new 2012 i7 mini--my system is at a place where really crazy things are becoming rather apparent. I just spent a couple of hours doing a highly controlled comparison between SD cards (used for OS booting and player app; and RAM disk as third reference point). Weird sh*t, but with one further test I may be able to draw some conclusions.

 

USB immunity is VERY difficult. Virtually all of the galvanic isolation schemes we have seen in current products do more harm than good. And the USB signal should be regenerated right at the DAC (ala the new Schiit Wyrd, which, with a USB hub chip comes close but still falls short). Various new things are in the works from several companies, but I am not allowed to speak much about any of them.

 

Back to Light Harmonic! I really do hope they succeed (in a number of ways they already have). But like the general consensus here has been saying, they allowed too many product idea trains to leave the station all at once. The ideas are good and they did not want to miss a window of opportunity. But even most larger companies would never announce and develop in public so many products at once. I would not want to work at LH these days--the pressure must be intense.

 

Ciao,

Alex C.