Light Harmonic, disappointing millionaires.

[Panelhead]

Another potential issue. I ordered some high end iPhones from another Indiegogo project. Saw it while for an update on my maxed out Pulse.

Paid for the cables via Paypal. At 11:00 pm that night I received a call from the credit used to fund Paypal. Charges were coming in from eBay. I told them they were fraud. They canceled the card and issued a new one. But not before 3250.00 in charges hit my card.

I do not use Paypal much. Do not think it was a coincidence that funding this iPhone cable project resulted in loss of credit card security.

So buyer be ware!

[Leonardo Piras]

So, LH refused to refund me because "pledged items are not refundable."

Too bad i didn't pledge on kickstarter for the Geek Out, i pre.ordered it on the LH website.

 

They finally sent me the item...

Though not with UPS as they claimed they would but with standard USPS shipping.

 

I guess I'll have a brand new GO450 up for sale very soon.

Anyone's interested?

[Panelhead]

Try contacting Gavin or Larry. Their CS may be overwhelmed.

They definitely need to slow down, build one product at a time, and build it right the first time.

I looked at the Geek source. Impressive. But waiting my Pulse. And so not need a Geek Out. Bought three for the family. They gave them all back. The headphones they use are made to work with an iPhone or computer. Could not see the purpose of it.

And I have not owned a pair of headphones in 20 years. Do not like wearing them. But the sonics are great.

[Gavin Fish]

Hi everyone,

 

Gavin here. I thought, after watching this thread grow the last week or so, I'd chime in here. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by responding directly on a thread about LH Labs. If so, please let me know. I read the rules and it looks like as long as I identify who I am and what I do, it should be okay, right? I'm the VP at Light Harmonic/LH Labs.

 

You are all correct that we've been overwhelmed by a lot of things. And there were a lot of things we found out we are bad at handling. Shipping, for instance. We really have had to grow into that one. I, for one, really appreciate the long-suffering that our Geek Force and crowdfunding backers have shown us. It's been above and beyond.

 

Larry and I have been working to fix shortcomings within the company systematically. For every challenge that is publicly visible, there are five or six that aren't public. So, instead of putting band-aids on problems, we're creating the mechanisms to handle those problems in the future. These mechanisms take time to perfect, and there are lots of bumps along the way.

 

One of the mechanisms I'm up coding at 1:45 AM is a simple and straightforward roadmap/checklist for each product we've crowdfunded. We've been told and quite agree that it's often difficult to navigate the forum, and updates sometimes get lost. So we're building a page for each product that simply shows where each one is in the production cycle. I think this tool will help immensely. At least I hope so.

 

Thanks for giving me a chance to offer my two cents. All of your concerns, complaints, critiques, and input/help are really appreciated.

 

-GF

[Leonardo Piras]

Thanks Gavin for this answer, and for your private answer on your Customer Service.

As a founder of a company myself, I know there are many invisible complexities behind a visible one.

 

The only thing i would recommend is: don't promise anything to your customers which you can't keep.

This is seen as a lie and a major disappointment.

 

I hope my issue, behind the upsetting, may help tighten some screws.

 

Best,

Leonardo.

[Gavin Fish]

Thanks for the kind advice, Leonardo.

[maelob]

Trust is really important especially when people contribute to the campaigns base on the company's reputation for solid products.

[YashN]

+1

 

What is it four FIVE crowd-funding campaigns and they have not completed fulfilment of the first?

 

So somewhere LH Labs have around $2 million in the bank - $2,790,681 raised from the Geek Pulse and Geek Wave projects (which have not yet shipped at all afaik) minus fees.

 

I was a bit annoyed that a real company with existing commercial presence with high-priced products needs to do crowd-funding campaigns...

 

Shouldn't they already have the funds for development?

 

Isn't the money so generously sent in advance more needed by smaller outfits and individuals who do not have enough resources for other projects?

 

Look at iFi: they totally did R & D (through AMR) for their products with no crowd-funding (only crowd-ideation for the micro), and they managed to release both the iDSD Nano and the Micro which do quad-rate and octa-rate native DSD, without any hitch.

 

There may be a lesson in this: do not crow-fund projects by existing commercial companies, especially if that company already sells extremely high-priced products - there's something fishy there.

[james45974]

There may be a lesson in this: do not crow-fund projects by existing commercial companies, especially if that company already sells extremely high-priced products - there's something fishy there.

 

I've never really thought of these campaigns as being particularly fishy but they do strike me as being patently lazy.

[CKKeung]

I was a bit annoyed that a real company with existing commercial presence with high-priced products needs to do crowd-funding campaigns...

Shouldn't they already have the funds for development?

Isn't the money so generously sent in advance more needed by smaller outfits and individuals who do not have enough resources for other projects?

Look at iFi: they totally did R & D (through AMR) for their products with no crowd-funding (only crowd-ideation for the micro), and they managed to release both the iDSD Nano and the Micro which do quad-rate and octa-rate native DSD, without any hitch.

There may be a lesson in this: do not crow-fund projects by existing commercial companies, especially if that company already sells extremely high-priced products - there's something fishy there.

 

PS Audio (Sprout) & Peachtree Audio (Deepblue2) have followed suit, not to mention Neil Young's Pono (but it's a new company/venture).

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/deepblue2-the-ultimate-bluetooth-speaker-designed-by-peachtree-audio

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music/posts/913004

 

Will crowdfunding become a trend in the hifi industry?

[bmoura]

PS Audio (Sprout) & Peachtree Audio (Deepblue2) have followed suit, not to mention Neil Young's Pono (but it's a new company/venture).

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/deepblue2-the-ultimate-bluetooth-speaker-designed-by-peachtree-audio

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003614822/ponomusic-where-your-soul-rediscovers-music/posts/913004

 

Will crowdfunding become a trend in the hifi industry?

 

Seems to be a trend. Although Pono just fired their CEO, so the road remains a bit bumpy in this arena.

Shake Up At Pono | AudioStream

[john57]

the thing with Peachtree Audio is using crowd-funding is to recover their losses when the manufacture quit for the second run of the DeepBlue

 

As for Pono they wanted a name that sells

[Audio_ELF]

Sorry I can't help myself posting this here...

 

[mav52]

Sorry I can't help myself posting this here...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]13882[/ATTACH]

 

LOL, pretty spot on

[MikeJazz]

I was a bit annoyed that a real company with existing commercial presence with high-priced products needs to do crowd-funding campaigns...

 

Shouldn't they already have the funds for development?

 

Isn't the money so generously sent in advance more needed by smaller outfits and individuals who do not have enough resources for other projects?

 

 

Why angry when other choose to conduct business in ways you disagree?

Have you participated? Were you pressured to do that? Why can't you just skip it without voicing your morality?

 

If LH can be criticized is to miss what was planned and promised, to sometimes not manage well the expectations;

But the idea behing the campaigns was great, due to the great interaction with their funding customers...

Crowdfunding It's not just to fund, is always used as new way of co-develop new products very well targeted to a niche!

 

And LH is still a niche/small company, the fact that they sell a few davinci dacs does not make them necessarely a company with big resources...

[RealAudio]

But the idea behing the campaigns was great, due to the great interaction with their funding customers...

Crowdfunding It's not just to fund, is always used as new way of co-develop new products very well targeted to a niche!

 

And LH is still a niche/small company, the fact that they sell a few davinci dacs does not make them necessarely a company with big resources...

 

 

Crowdfunding has nothing to do with "co-developing" or "great interaction", its all about laying off risk on a group that will never participate in the reward if the product is successful.

[Audio_ELF]

Crowdfunding has nothing to do with "co-developing" or "great interaction", its all about laying off risk on a group that will never participate in the reward if the product is successful.

I agree... Crowd funding *should* be a way to bring to market a product which you have great faith in but no funds to produce / market. As a result you pre-sell in the hope that others share your vision.

 

IMO crowd funding project should usually already have the product designed but needing pre-orders to go from prototype to production.

 

As a wider thought; in my opinion; a company should not start crowd funding a new project until they have fulfilled the first project. And for that matter a second project shouldn't need crowd funding as there should be sufficient profit from the first to develop the second project ... Of course if you have cut margins to the bone on the first then perhaps there won't be and your business will never be self sustaining.

 

But perhaps I am just naive in my expectations.

 

Eloise

[Jud]

I agree... Crowd funding *should* be a way to bring to market a product which you have great faith in but no funds to produce / market. As a result you pre-sell in the hope that others share your vision.

 

IMO crowd funding project should usually already have the product designed but needing pre-orders to go from prototype to production.

 

As a wider thought; in my opinion; a company should not start crowd funding a new project until they have fulfilled the first project. And for that matter a second project shouldn't need crowd funding as there should be sufficient profit from the first to develop the second project ... Of course if you have cut margins to the bone on the first then perhaps there won't be and your business will never be self sustaining.

 

But perhaps I am just naive in my expectations.

 

Eloise

 

Eloise, as you know I very much agree with your second point - a company should not neglect the operational competence and customer service involved in fulfilling current orders for the lure of easy new money from future projects. But let me gently disagree with your first point: I think *some* flexibility in vision for/design of a product is no more than being responsive to people who, after all, are both your customers and funders of a portion of your capital. (Yes, this flexibility can go too far and become little more than a way of raising more money.)

[YashN]

Why angry when other choose to conduct business in ways you disagree? Have you participated? Were you pressured to do that? Why can't you just skip it without voicing your morality?

 

Because I have a right to my opinion.

 

I would have been even more pissed off had I contributed to that campaign and then not get the product in time while iFi released the iDSD Nano for a comparable price and with even better features (free Quad rate DSD firmware update a few weeks ago) while not asking customers to fund their R & D.

 

Blame yourself for falling for this and not 'my morality'.

[Audio_ELF]

I think *some* flexibility in vision for/design of a product is no more than being responsive to people who, after all, are both your customers and funders of a portion of your capital. (Yes, this flexibility can go too far and become little more than a way of raising more money.)

Okay I will not disagree with you Jud - some flexibility is a good thing, but without the basic design in place timescales are just guess work. As I recall (and I maybe totally wrong here) from the launch of the kick starter project to the end just about every part of the Geek was redesigned. Light Harmonic didn't even stick with the original choice of DAC chip. There may have been good reasons for this, but it doesn't inspire confidence (to my mind).

 

Eloise

[Rick U]

I had never heard of crowd funding when I saw and pledged to the Geek Out campaign. I liked their concept and they were clearly credentialed. It was fun to watch, and be part of the entire process. LH was open to ideas, options and their feasibility of their concept. I'm using my Geek Out as my source dac on a daily basis and it sounds great. Wouldn't sell it even if I could make a few bucks. I also made a pledged for the Pulse full well knowing they were developing other items. Worst case scenario, I never get the pulse. I hope that's not the case but there is that risk. The pulse continues to change as the concept moves along into a product. I know I have no say in this product but I trust Larry, Gavin and company are going to produce something that exceeds expectations. They did with the Geek.

 

Getting the Geek was frustrating and I know how you feel Leonardo especially with the pre order. They need improvement there. How does your geek sound?

[beanbag]

Crowdfunding has nothing to do with "co-developing" or "great interaction", its all about laying off risk on a group that will never participate in the reward if the product is successful.

 

Also, you get a bunch of "investors" that don't do their due diligence, and have very few strings attached. Almost as good as free money.

[MikeJazz]

I agree... Crowd funding *should* be a way to bring to market a product which you have great faith in but no funds to produce / market. As a result you pre-sell in the hope that others share your vision.

 

IMO crowd funding project should usually already have the product designed but needing pre-orders to go from prototype to production.

 

As a wider thought; in my opinion; a company should not start crowd funding a new project until they have fulfilled the first project. And for that matter a second project shouldn't need crowd funding as there should be sufficient profit from the first to develop the second project ... Of course if you have cut margins to the bone on the first then perhaps there won't be and your business will never be self sustaining.

 

But perhaps I am just naive in my expectations.

 

Eloise

 

Why are some people so strict on the crowdfunding business models?

There can be different approaches to crowdfundind; I see no other company in the hifi world listening to user requirements and ideas in the same way...

 

If there is a criticism to be made is that LH listens too much sometimes and when it happens it's product definition becomes a moving target, with not so good consequences on ability to deliver...

[MikeJazz]

Because I have a right to my opinion.

 

 

Blame yourself for falling for this and not 'my morality'.

I am falling in love with the geek out sound when I am at the office...I tested it on some friends headphones and it rocked them all!

[YashN]

I am falling in love with the geek out sound when I am at the office...I tested it on some friends headphones and it rocked them all!

 

Well, I'm happy you're happy despite the obvious cognitive dissonance.