Doing crossovers with Jriver/Dirac..possible or not..?

[retro]

:)

 

When I get the time to do my 5.2 calibration, I'll start a new thread describing the procedure and show screenshots.

Might take a couple weeks though.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Guys, an interesting discussion. It is a little deep for me in spots because I have not yet tried Dirac Live or the ExaSound, which I am eager to do. And, thanks for keeping your disagreement civil. I think we can all learn a great deal from both of you.

 

 

Before proceeding with my trial of both those tools, I am hung up on how to do the Dirac calibration with DLCT and the E28. I have read Kal Rubinson's review of the combination and his further comments in this CA Forum. I am OK for now calibrating by speaker channel without xovers in my 7.1 setup. That is what all EQ packages I know of do, and it is the way Dirac assumes, for now. I do see potential in the path you have described, unusual though it might be, if it can indeed be done. Retro, I will be most interested to see your Mch procedure. And, dallasjustice, I will be very interested to see your comments on it.

 

 

From what Kal says, it is not possible currently to do a DLCT calibration with the ExaSound driver. He did a workaround for his calibration using a different DAC via HDMI, othen applied that for DAP playback via the E28. I want to avoid that, doing the calibration via the E28, if possible, although it is an option.

 

 

So, it seems implicit in this thread that you may have found a way to deal with the ExaSound driver issue during calibration. May I ask how you did it? Is it as simple as using ASIO Bridge or some other ASIO driver for the calibration, then the ExaSound driver for playback? Seems too simple even to my feeble mind, and I have not seen anything on a joint ExaSound - Dirac fix, as has been promised. ExaSound has not yet responded to my query via their site.

[dallasjustice]

I know that George lent an e28 to DIRAC and they worked out the issue with the driver. I was able to use DLCT with the demo unit I got from Nyal.

 

When I demoed the exa unit I did things a little different than retro so I can't say what sub integration sounds like using his method.

 

ASIO bridge is only needed if you plan on using Jriver for delay/crossover.

 

In retro's case you'll need to buy DIRAC full version and use the ASIO bridge workaround. In my case, I only need DIRAC 2ch version and I do additional processing for crossover/delay inside my DAC BEFORE conversion to analog. One of the advantages to using an external digital crossover/delay like the DEQX is the ability to verify time, frequency and phase response using REW. This way you know you've dialed your sub in. I don't believe there's any way to get REW to work with the DAP filter. So, retro's method won't allow for confirmation that you dialed the sub in.

 

Unfortunately, the exasound can't do crossover/delay. If it could, I would have considered buying it. I'd say it's on par with the DEQX in-terms of sonics, which is great.

 

Guys, an interesting discussion. It is a little deep for me in spots because I have not yet tried Dirac Live or the ExaSound, which I am eager to do. And, thanks for keeping your disagreement civil. I think we can all learn a great deal from both of you.

 

 

Before proceeding with my trial of both those tools, I am hung up on how to do the Dirac calibration with DLCT and the E28. I have read Kal Rubinson's review of the combination and his further comments in this CA Forum. I am OK for now calibrating by speaker channel without xovers in my 7.1 setup. That is what all EQ packages I know of do, and it is the way Dirac assumes, for now. I do see potential in the path you have described, unusual though it might be, if it can indeed be done. Retro, I will be most interested to see your Mch procedure. And, dallasjustice, I will be very interested to see your comments on it.

 

 

From what Kal says, it is not possible currently to do a DLCT calibration with the ExaSound driver. He did a workaround for his calibration using a different DAC via HDMI, othen applied that for DAP playback via the E28. I want to avoid that, doing the calibration via the E28, if possible, although it is an option.

 

 

So, it seems implicit in this thread that you may have found a way to deal with the ExaSound driver issue during calibration. May I ask how you did it? Is it as simple as using ASIO Bridge or some other ASIO driver for the calibration, then the ExaSound driver for playback? Seems too simple even to my feeble mind, and I have not seen anything on a joint ExaSound - Dirac fix, as has been promised. ExaSound has not yet responded to my query via their site.

[Kal Rubinson]

So, it seems implicit in this thread that you may have found a way to deal with the ExaSound driver issue during calibration. May I ask how you did it? Is it as simple as using ASIO Bridge or some other ASIO driver for the calibration, then the ExaSound driver for playback? Seems too simple even to my feeble mind, and I have not seen anything on a joint ExaSound - Dirac fix, as has been promised. ExaSound has not yet responded to my query via their site.

George suggested ASIO-Bridge to me for calibration via the e28 but I took the easy way out with the HDMI processor.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

Thanks, guys. Dallasjustice, very useful insights. I had not thought about the REW issue. I had hopes of using that, but I now see why that will not work.

 

Kal, I take it you have not received the updated driver yet from George. Possibly, dallasjustice has gotten a beta version not yet in general release. And, you are amazing. Every time an advanced topic comes up somewhere, there you are, right on top of it.

 

i will try George again, but he might be on vacation or something.

[retro]

Although I´m not using REW, and although REW is not a prerequisite for using Dirac, I do know it´s possible to use it through Jriver which many users do with success.

I might try it out later.

[dallasjustice]

Although I´m not using REW, and although REW is not a prerequisite for using Dirac, I do know it´s possible to use it through Jriver which many users do with success.

I might try it out later.

I would love it if you could prove me wrong. However, both myself and Nyal Mellor spent significant time trying to get a valid result to no avail. In our tests we determined the problem area was DAP. The DIRAC filter does something to create severe timing errors. We tried REW with a digital loopback as a timing reference in REW. That didn't improve the faulty measurent. Again, I would be very happy if you could figure out a way to take a valid REW measurent with the DAP filter in place (whether with Jriver or not). Please keep us posted.

Michael.

[dallasjustice]

Although I´m not using REW, and although REW is not a prerequisite for using Dirac, I do know it´s possible to use it through Jriver which many users do with success.

I might try it out later.

 

This is how I did it:

Dirac validation

[retro]

This is how I did it:

Dirac validation

 

Good work Michael! It does indeed show Dirac is doing what it claims, right..?

CH

[dallasjustice]

Good work Michael! It does indeed show Dirac is doing what it claims, right..?

CH

Thanks! Clearly it's working exactly as advertised. I thought about posting that thread here, but I felt it would have been a little too much preaching to the choir. I enjoy showing some of the caveman audiophiles what modern technology can do to greatly improve the music. :-)

[dallasjustice]

Retro,

I previously complained about how use use the DIRAC full version using a custom MCH setup to implements subs in a 2CH setup. My complaint was that you cannot build a filter based on the combined response of the subwoofer and the main R/L.

 

The problem from my point of view is that the crossovers and delays need to take place after the DAP filter. That's the way I currently do it with external hardware (DEQX HDP-4). Only this way can one measure the combined subwoofer and main R/L response. You would also not need to upgrade to the much more expensive DIRAC full version whilst properly integrating subwoofers.

 

You need to use both Jriver 18 and Jriver 19. There's a little known feature in jriver 18 and 19 that permits "multiple instances." This means that you can run multipe jrivers at the same time. ONLY jriver 19 has it's own ASIO driver. So, I can select the Jriver 19 asio driver as the output in DAP. Like this:

 

You then need to select multiple instances box like this in both 18 and 19:

 

You need to select the output device in 19. You can also set up DLNA, or any DSP in room correction with in 19. Here it is running:

 

And here's jriver 18 running at the same time acting simply as the server:

 

The above setup opens up the door to not only subwoofer integration but also DLNA. :-)

[retro]

Dallasjustice,

 

I'm not quite with you here..? Why would I need to run multiple instances..??

[dallasjustice]

Any Jriver DSP can be applied AFTER DAP. It opens DIRAC LIVE to DLNA and sub integration. I know you have integrated subs using MCH version of DIRAC. However, the second Jriver 19 instance means that I could use only the DIRAC LIVE 2CH version for sub integration without external crossover/delay hardware. I could also contemporaneously measure the sub and right/ left speakers. IMO, this makes for better sub integration without the need for any external hardware for crossover/delay. Of course, I still need to take the time to figure out the correct delay and crossovers using REW first.

 

 

Dallasjustice,

 

I'm not quite with you here..? Why would I need to run multiple instances..??

[dallasjustice]

I got it working with 2 instances of Jriver 19. No need to use Jriver 18 at all. :-)

[retro]

Dallas,

Hopefully I have a kids-free weekend coming up, then I will dig deep into Dirac and Jriver. I'm gonna give your idea a try also. Please post as soon as you have tried as well, with screenshots please..

 

So maybe you're thinking of ditching your old-school crossover box now then....?

[dallasjustice]

Dallas,

Hopefully I have a kids-free weekend coming up, then I will dig deep into Dirac and Jriver. I'm gonna give your idea a try also. Please post as soon as you have tried as well, with screenshots please..

 

So maybe you're thinking of ditching your old-school crossover box now then....?

 

I might demo the exasound MCH DAC again with my new found method and DIRAC. However, I don't think my "old school" crossover is any different from using Jriver's crossover. They both keep everything in digital before analog, so I doubt that would make much difference for me.

 

However, I will be getting a demo SOTM SMS-100 DLNA player this week. I plan on setting it up with DIRAC Live. I think I have it all worked out. I hope to start a new thread soon on how to setup DLNA output with DIRAC Live. :-)

[retro]

Dallas,

 

I used the term old school only because you yourself used it in another thread about your deqx (peq). And to tease you..

 

But can you explain to me the relations between Dirac and DLNA..? I don't use DLNA, don't need to, but what is it you're trying to do..??

[dallasjustice]

My selfish reason for coming up with the multiple instances method of using a Jriver after DAP is so that I could use this product and DIRAC Live at the same time:

Computer Audiophile - SOtM sMS-100 Mini Server Review

 

You can read more about it. But basically, it's a low power/battery powered linux player connected over ethernet. Jriver can be setup for DLNA. Once the sms-100 is setup for DLNA and plugged into the network with Jriver running on the same network, I believe Jriver can be configured to setup a zone dedicated to the DLNA device. The output of this DLNA device is USB which then connects to my DAC. Therefore, the server computer no longer sees the DAC as the endpoint or the playback device like it could with WASAPI, ASIO, Kernel or Direct sound devices. The purpose for such a device is two fold. The most important is aesthetic. I can connect to my server which is about 20 feet away without using a bright orange optical cable laying on the ground. The second reason might be better sound quality due to the device acting is a FIFO buffer with super clean power and total isolation. However, I am not sure about that yet.

 

The problem with using DLNA devices like this one with DIRAC Live is that DIRAC Live's DAP (output interface) can ONLY connect to ASIO or Kernel devices. IOW, there's no way to directly output sound from DIRAC Live's DAP to any such DLNA player. All I did is come up with a clean way to make it work. I don't have the player yet, so I am not celebrating just yet. However, I believe it will work just fine. All I need to do is select Jriver ASIO as the output in DAP and then make certain that Jriver ASIO is playing through the DLNA zone Jriver "instance". The other "instance" of Jriver would simply route the output into DAP like is normally the case. It should work. If there's a problem, I have a backup plan. :-) The only problem with this is that I understand that Jriver has a bug in it which prevents any DSP from being used in any DLNA zone. I don't know that for sure, but there's some talk about the problem I found on the Jriver forum. Maybe Jriver will fix that problem. We will see. I am not concerned with DSP in Jriver now.

 

Michael.

 

 

Dallas,

 

I used the term old school only because you yourself used it in another thread about your deqx (peq). And to tease you..

 

But can you explain to me the relations between Dirac and DLNA..? I don't use DLNA, don't need to, but what is it you're trying to do..??

[dallasjustice]

Dallas,

 

I used the term old school only because you yourself used it in another thread about your deqx (peq).

 

That's right. However, I was talking about only it's PEQ function. I love the rest of it. It's a great unit, IMO. :-)

[LocutusEstBorg]

know you have integrated subs using MCH version of DIRAC.

What does this mean?

[dallasjustice]

What does this mean?

 

I have no idea. This is an old thread. I don't use a DEQX anymore. I use a MCH DAC/ADC and Audiolense for crossover and room DSP.