Greetings, an Anecdote, and Several Questions

[bachrocks]

Greetings from a first-time poster!

 

I've been following the CA forum for a while, but until, now have not posted. Wow, the engaging discussions and knowledge of the participants are so impressive. Thank you Chris and others for many fine hours of pleasant reading and reflection.

 

My wife and I will soon move into our new condominium. I would like to build a stereo system for music that also serves as the audio-workhorse for watching DVDs. Equipment will be procured in two phases. First, I will initially purchase an amplifier, speakers, a DVD player, and TV. Next, I will integrate a computer, perhaps Mac Mini, external storage, and DAC (surely, one of your hi-end suggestions, Chris) into our system.

 

Perhaps, the most important thing I’ve learned from reading the forums on CA and Stereophile is that listening is paramount. So, with this in mind, I ventured out to an audio store this past weekend. In the unbelievably hi-end Paragon shopping mall in Bangkok (there are Ferrari and Maserati dealerships in a corner of the second floor), I visited a Marantz store. After listening to two three different speakers and amplifiers, I asked the salesman to audition the 720,000 Baht (U.S $20,000.) Klipsch speakers powered by one of the amplifiers and CD players in the Marantz Reference series. Sorry, I was too overwhelmed by everything to remember model numbers - the speakers were almost as tall as I am and stunningly beautiful.

 

Well, I just wanted to hear what hi-end audio sounds like so that I could approach it as closely and economically as possible. Wow, I was blown away. It was the first time I ever fell in love with a song because of the equipment. I had been reading about the words “soundstage,” but until then, I don’t think I had ever really heard it! Wow, the soundstage was so layered and deep. There was a three-dimensionality and authenticity to what I was hearing like I had never heard before. This made the music so beautiful, regardless of the music itself (it was some song by Nora Jones).

 

Forgive my long digression. My point is that I must have that sound, albeit at a lower price. May I ask several questions?

 

1. I would like to buy PSB Platinum T6 tower speakers. Our living room is small and separated from our small kitchen (everything’s small) by an island. The total room dimensions are 6.5 meters by 3.3 meters. However, the living room area is only 3.8 by 3.3. We plan to place a small couch as our listening and watching TV station along one of the walls. Approximately 3 meters away will be the TV in an entertainment center. The speakers will be somewhere in-between. Of course, I will audition these, but I am not sure if floorstanding speakers are appropriate in my room size. Any thoughts? And no, we won’t disturb the neighbors. In our condo, no one shares a common wall, only the floors and ceilings, and we’re too polite to blow out our neighbors.

 

2. I am considering the NAD M3 for an amplifier. There is an audio store in Bangkok that specializes in NAD and PSB products so I can listen to everything before I buy. I am also thinking of their M55 DVD player. From a video point of view, it would be easier (I think??) to just get an AV receiver so that the DVD player could happily meet through HDMI. However, our interests are first audio and then video. So I think an “audio” receiver would be best. Am I correct in thinking this?

 

3. Okay, assuming I get the M3, for example, I am wondering how I can maximize the audio when we watch our DVDs. As an aside – I know this is an audio not video forum – I am not interested in high definition TV. We don’t watch much TV, but we do watch our DVDs. And this affects my audio question, because to upscale the DVD to 720i, for example, on the M55, the signal must go through HDMI (again, I think??). So, I will send video directly to the TV and audio to the amplifier (and later DAC). The question is does a DVD player decode a DTS signal before it sends it to the amp or DAC through a digital connection? If not, can these decode DTS audio?

 

I realize this is a computer audio forum, and although I’m not specifically asking about the computer-audio interface – not yet, at least! – I hope you’ll generously consider my questions as the audio end of the computer-audio continuum. I have spent many happy hours researching these questions, but I feel I’m at somewhat of an impasse.

 

My present system is a VAIO FZ series laptop (as music server and CD player), NAD C325BEE amplifier, and Wharfdale Diamond 9.1 speakers. My collection and interests revolve around classical, although I love most music. I became interested in this forum trying to find a DAC for my computer.

 

Thank you

 

 

[bachrocks]

Thank you all very much for your thoughtful suggestions. I will carefully consider your ideas when finally deciding what to buy.

 

The world of audio is so confusing. After submitting my message to the forum, I visited Conice Audio, the NAD and PSB specialist shop in Central World, another mega-mall in Bangkok. I had burned a test disc with an invention by Bach, vocal music by Vivaldi, a tune from Ray Charles and Betty Carter, and "The Year of The Cat" by Cat Stevens (of course, these were from CDs that I had previously ripped to Apple Lossless. I then burned a compilation disc in iTunes); so I was even predisposed to liking the sounds I heard. I listened eagerly to the NAD M3 with the PSB Platinum T8 and T6 speakers, their top-of-the-line models. I was unimpressed, and sadly, disappointed.

 

I don’t know if I am describing accurately what I heard, but here goes. The sound from the M3 and PSB was detailed, but too bright and edgy for my tastes. It was too loud, and this had nothing to do with the volume. What I kept thinking about –no, dreaming about longingly – were the silky-smooth sounds I had heard form those beautiful Klipsch speakers the other day. They were not loud, and the music seemed to exist in the air, not emanate from woofers or tweeters. The music was everywhere, but it was not loud. How is this possible? Can I not have this sound without spending so much money?

 

Lost, I then went to the branch of the Marantz store in Central World. I listened to a top Marantz Reference amplifier, first with a pair of Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 speakers and then Klipsch 17-B bookshelf speakers (They didn’t have those hauntingly-beautiful Klipsch speakers that so completely stole my heart at the Paragon). I don’t know why, but I found these much more enjoyable to listen to than the NAD. Still, they both struck me as somehow being loud.

 

However, the amplifier was twice as expensive as the NAD M3, and the speakers were at least thrice the price of the PSBs. I would consider buying these, but money is a consideration, and they just didn’t strike the right quality-price balance.

 

I then listened to the middle-of-the-road Marantz PM-5003 and Mordaunt-Short Mezzo Bookshelf speakers, price-wise, both quite inexpensive at around 20 - 25,000 Baht (U.S. $600) each. Clearly, the sound was not a good as the Marantz Reference combinations described above, but still, in many ways, I liked it better than the NAD M3 and PSB pair. Maybe it was my thrifty bargain-hunter streak kicking-in. And although I would rather have the Marantz Reference option, at around 10-times the price, they are not at all 10 times better.

 

If I had the space, I would consider saving up for a few (=many) months to buy $20,000 speakers. It’s not just that I don’t want to spend. These speakers are many times better than anything I’ve ever heard. Obviously, the price is astronomical, but so is the quality, and thus, at least, the quality-price ratio is good.

 

I now fully understand why so many people in CA and Stereophile forums preach about actually listening before buying. Yes, there is no substitute for hearing with one’s own ears. And on a related note, if you’ll indulge my video commentary, there is no substitute for seeing with one’s own eyes.

 

I had intended to buy the new Samsung LED TV as the reviews were brilliant. I especially liked that it was super-thin and used less energy (I’m not raising the green flag here; I mostly liked that it generated less heat, a big concern if your body is in the tropics, but your heart yearns for the arctic).

 

I only want to view my DVDs as I have no plans for BlueRay. I used an old DVD, Peter O'Toole and Audrey Hepburn's brilliant but not so well known romantic comedy, "How to Steal a Million". Well, I found the picture in LED as well as LCD TVs not to my liking. The Pioneer Kuro plasmas are so beautiful. And I’ll be investigating whether it is only Pioneer that I find so great, or whether it is plasma TVs in general that are superior. In any case, without seeing first, I would have made a terrible choice here as well.

 

Pardon the lengthy commentary. I'm enjoying summer vacation now, and I have only time on my hands. Thank you again for your advice. I really do appreciate it.

 

 

[bachrocks]

Thanks again for contributing to my audio education everyone. This forum is really cool!

 

I'm not trying to resuscitate a dormant thread, but if anyone’s interested in an update of my quest for finding great sound in Thailand, here’s a report.

 

The past week I had been reflecting on why I had been dissatisfied with the NAD M3 and PSB Platinum speakers - all very favorably reviewed in Stereophile- and the Reference series Marantz amplifier (or Premium – now, I’m not sure which I heard) with the Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 speakers and then Klipsch 17-B bookshelf speakers. I think I’ve found an answer, but I needed to hear more to understand the reasons.

 

I’ve been identifying potential audio dealers to visit through online searches. In comparison to Korea, where I live most of the year, there is not so much audio going on online in Thailand – at least in English. I did find several promising references to a Hi-Fi Center near the Central World mall, but when I went there yesterday, most of the stores were dark and empty. It was a 5-story building but more like a ghost town than a shopping mall. Interestingly, the overpass connecting it to the other side of the road had recently been torn down. A crane was parked next to it. Still, I was fed-up with online audio and desperately needed to hear real gear.

 

The first “shop” I passed was an elderly Thai man selling audio racks in the entrance hall. I continued up the escalator and saw a B&W showroom. In spite of my shyness, I went in. Thankfully, the people were kind enough and happily let me listen to what they had. I heard both a Meridian 551 amplifier with Celestron 300 speakers. The sound was good. I also heard a Nakamichi AV1 with BW 686 speakers. That sound was a little weak. Oddly, he did have a number of Classe amplifiers as well, but I could not listen to those. Well, I felt a little satisfied that at least my audio horizons were broadened a little. Of course, I yearned for more, much more. Excitedly, I continued my mission and returned to the Paragon Mall, where the Audio Research dealer for Thailand has a branch.

 

I grew up with solid-state low-fi stereo equipment, and although I can remember the cabinet at the local pharmacy, where you could check and buy tubes, I had no idea what they were really for. Since I’ve become fascinated by all things audio, I’ve been coming across many discussions about tubes versus solid state. Without any particular reason, I had always fashioned myself a solid-state guy. But recently, I began reconsidering whether tubes might be just what I needed. Still, from a heat point of view, I like solid state. (I don’t know for a fact but I believe tubes generate more heat??) In fact, I was thrilled reading about class D amplifiers from Rotel. Wow, I could have great sound, avoid heat, and possibly save the planet too!

 

I guess audio is just like life: there are always compromises. In this case, I thought I’d rather have the extra heat than miss out on dynamite sound. So into the Audio Research dealer I bravely went. I was so full of hope as I swung open the door and was greeted by the Stradivari and Amari speakers of Sonus Faber’s Homage collection. I knew they were there, and had been anticipating seeing and possibly hearing them. I had seen the reviews that criticized SF as being as much furniture as audio, but that didn’t bother me at all. Quite the opposite really.

 

I briefly told the salesman about my situation. I wanted to buy an amplifier and speakers. I was looking for great sound. And believing that I could never have that great sound unless I spent the money, I gave him too large a budget of 5 to 10 thousand dollars. Of course, I couldn’t afford that immediately, but if I spread out my purchase over the next year, I could manage. We began looking around the room and he pointed out an Audio Research VS 55. I asked if I could listen to it and he agreed. I felt so excited. It was the very first tube-amp I would ever listen to. He said that he needed 5 or 10 minutes to set things up so I looked around the store. Oh, throughout my listening, he used a Mcintosh C 2300 preamplifier.

 

He first connected it to Sonus Faber Toy bookshelf speakers. Clearly, the sound was not what I was looking for. After a few minutes, I asked him to connect it to the floorstanding model. The sound was better but still not impressive. Behind me, however, were the bookshelf Cremonas, and he kindly moved them so that I could hear them too. Wow, now we were getting somewhere. I listened to the same music again, first a short piano work by Bach, and then the Vivaldi vocal piece. By his time, I was hooked. The piano was not so stunning, but the instruments and voices on the Vivaldi were so exquisite. Really, it was a moment not to forget. I felt excited. I felt in the presence of rich music.

 

What is so amazing is that I could feel this in spite of the speakers crackling every minute or so. Of course, I knew something was not right, but clearly, the issue was an aberration and not the normal state of affairs. In my primitive analysis, I attributed it to “feedback” (as if I even know what feedback is in a technical sense). The salesman had just let me go with whatever combination he had set up for me, and as he was busy with a customer or some other affair, had not noticed the crackling until I was listening to the Cremona monitors when he came to hear my opinion of them. As I was saying how much I loved them, he apologetically mentioned there must be a bad tube.

He also kindly handed me the binder that had their specials for the season. I asked him if we could hear one of the Mcintosh amplifiers. I know as much about this company as I do Audio Research, which is very little. Still, I recognized they were big names in tube audio.

 

He went into the back and brought out a Mcintosh MC275. Wow, it was also very cool looking. I wasn’t sure, honestly, how I felt about the industrial look of tube amplifiers. But after hearing the VS 55, I realized I loved the look because I loved the sound. I began my disc with the Bach and Vivaldi. I don’t know if the sound was any different than the VS 55. It was all so lovely. By the time I got to “You and I” by Ray Charles and Betty Carter, I realized I had forgotten where I was and was totally into the music. I can’t remember the last time I had experienced that. (Well, that’s not quite true, but I was young then and in High school, and this is a family forum, so let me pass over that story.)

 

Then, wondering if I’d get more from bigger speakers, I asked him if he’d lug the Liuto floor models over for a hearing. They are priced the same as the Cremona bookshelf (Cremona is a “better” class in the SF line). I began with the Bach. Wow, this is what I had been waiting for. There was a huge difference in the piano sound. Even on the sweet Cremona monitors, it sounded like the sound of a piano was being emitted by great speakers, but with the Liuto, it was as if there were a piano in room. I didn’t understand this, but I could hear the difference clearly. On the Vivaldi, I had to softly hold back the tears. The music was so beautiful. But on the Ray Charles song, I felt myself gasp in disbelief that I was hearing that sound I first heard on the $20,000 Klipsch speakers two weeks ago. It was profound.

 

Soon afterwards, I turned the volume down and spoke with the salesman. I was spooked by the experience. I explained I’d return in December and make a purchase. I shook his hand. I hope he didn’t think I was just lazing around listening to his gear for an hour or two. They even served me tea!

 

By the time I met my wife later that night, I was totally excited. She was surprised I was so animated. Actually, we were both like that the previous evening after we ordered some Mahogany furniture from this great furniture gallery, Siam Wood. But I had double-dosed. The audio on top of the furniture just sent me over the top. I could talk of nothing else.

 

Now, I am wondering what I should purchase. The speakers are affordable by themselves (180,000 Baht or $5,000, roughly), but I need more gear. Actually, I need to return to the store sometime and listen to an integrated amplifier. That would trim the budget if I didn’t have to buy an Amplifier AND a preamplifier. In any case, I need to save.

 

I got my first Mac in 1989, and now, twenty years on, I have fallen in love with another, the Mcintosh line of audio gear. What a week!