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Greetings, an Anecdote, and Several Questions

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Greetings from a first-time poster!


I've been following the CA forum for a while, but until, now have not posted. Wow, the engaging discussions and knowledge of the participants are so impressive. Thank you Chris and others for many fine hours of pleasant reading and reflection.


My wife and I will soon move into our new condominium. I would like to build a stereo system for music that also serves as the audio-workhorse for watching DVDs. Equipment will be procured in two phases. First, I will initially purchase an amplifier, speakers, a DVD player, and TV. Next, I will integrate a computer, perhaps Mac Mini, external storage, and DAC (surely, one of your hi-end suggestions, Chris) into our system.


Perhaps, the most important thing I’ve learned from reading the forums on CA and Stereophile is that listening is paramount. So, with this in mind, I ventured out to an audio store this past weekend. In the unbelievably hi-end Paragon shopping mall in Bangkok (there are Ferrari and Maserati dealerships in a corner of the second floor), I visited a Marantz store. After listening to two three different speakers and amplifiers, I asked the salesman to audition the 720,000 Baht (U.S $20,000.) Klipsch speakers powered by one of the amplifiers and CD players in the Marantz Reference series. Sorry, I was too overwhelmed by everything to remember model numbers - the speakers were almost as tall as I am and stunningly beautiful.


Well, I just wanted to hear what hi-end audio sounds like so that I could approach it as closely and economically as possible. Wow, I was blown away. It was the first time I ever fell in love with a song because of the equipment. I had been reading about the words “soundstage,” but until then, I don’t think I had ever really heard it! Wow, the soundstage was so layered and deep. There was a three-dimensionality and authenticity to what I was hearing like I had never heard before. This made the music so beautiful, regardless of the music itself (it was some song by Nora Jones).


Forgive my long digression. My point is that I must have that sound, albeit at a lower price. May I ask several questions?


1. I would like to buy PSB Platinum T6 tower speakers. Our living room is small and separated from our small kitchen (everything’s small) by an island. The total room dimensions are 6.5 meters by 3.3 meters. However, the living room area is only 3.8 by 3.3. We plan to place a small couch as our listening and watching TV station along one of the walls. Approximately 3 meters away will be the TV in an entertainment center. The speakers will be somewhere in-between. Of course, I will audition these, but I am not sure if floorstanding speakers are appropriate in my room size. Any thoughts? And no, we won’t disturb the neighbors. In our condo, no one shares a common wall, only the floors and ceilings, and we’re too polite to blow out our neighbors.


2. I am considering the NAD M3 for an amplifier. There is an audio store in Bangkok that specializes in NAD and PSB products so I can listen to everything before I buy. I am also thinking of their M55 DVD player. From a video point of view, it would be easier (I think??) to just get an AV receiver so that the DVD player could happily meet through HDMI. However, our interests are first audio and then video. So I think an “audio” receiver would be best. Am I correct in thinking this?


3. Okay, assuming I get the M3, for example, I am wondering how I can maximize the audio when we watch our DVDs. As an aside – I know this is an audio not video forum – I am not interested in high definition TV. We don’t watch much TV, but we do watch our DVDs. And this affects my audio question, because to upscale the DVD to 720i, for example, on the M55, the signal must go through HDMI (again, I think??). So, I will send video directly to the TV and audio to the amplifier (and later DAC). The question is does a DVD player decode a DTS signal before it sends it to the amp or DAC through a digital connection? If not, can these decode DTS audio?


I realize this is a computer audio forum, and although I’m not specifically asking about the computer-audio interface – not yet, at least! – I hope you’ll generously consider my questions as the audio end of the computer-audio continuum. I have spent many happy hours researching these questions, but I feel I’m at somewhat of an impasse.


My present system is a VAIO FZ series laptop (as music server and CD player), NAD C325BEE amplifier, and Wharfdale Diamond 9.1 speakers. My collection and interests revolve around classical, although I love most music. I became interested in this forum trying to find a DAC for my computer.


Thank you



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1) I don't know the PSB speakers so can't really comment on them directly. However in your small listening room I would look for speakers that can be placed close to the back wall to give you maximum distance between you and the speakers - best thing is to demo and talk to your dealer(s) for advise. You may even consider on wall speakers, either by themselves or paired with a subwoofer.


2) Unless you have any interest in multi-channel setup, you'd probably do best to stay away from AV receivers and amplifiers. Your DVD player (and satellite/cable box if you have them) can be connected directly to your television via HDMI and then run either an analogue or digital cable to your amplifier / DAC. All DVD players I've come across can be set to decode DTS and DD into PCM (understandable by all DACs). Initially you can just connect analogue cables into your amplifier, but later when you get a DAC you can use digital connection into the DAC. If you can wait a while - the new M2 might also suit your needs - a fully digital amplifier with inputs straight from DVD player, etc. It's low physical heat output may suit you if your place is smallish.


As an alternative, you could look at a DAC like the Benchmark DAC-1 with input volume - the new DAC-1 HDR gives you an analogue input and remote control as well - and connect that into a good power amp.


3) Think I've answered in (2) ... connect via analogue until you get your DAC.


Hope I've helped






...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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I agree with Eloise, if two channel is what you want best results from then I wouldn't go the AV reciever route.

For the same money as a hi end AV reciever (which is what you will need to get close to that demo you heard) you can get a REALLY good Integrated amp. It terms of upscalling the DVDs I wouldn't worry too much about that. An HDMI DVD player will upscale for you anyway and often the upscalling which occurs in every HD TV will be better anyway! Later on you could plug the DVD into the DAC as well as computer to get a nice CD/DVD transport.

Also in my personal experience I have recently "downgraded" from a multichannel system to a 2 channel system and never looked back. One of the things that really impressed was Music DVDs.


So here goes: Nice sounding DVD player (perhaps a SACD/DVD Audio universal if audio is your thing- Marantz do these) + Nice powerfull int amp as Smaller speakers often require more power, remember power doesn't always equal overall loudness but ability to transfer subtle information from the disk. Then the PSBs which I have heard nothing but good things about. But yes Listen, listen, listen and try to get a home demo when you are down to your final choice.


PS3 60bg (160GB installed + Native music Browser)-AVI ADM9.1-Klipsch SW12 Subwoofer-Belkin Power Board- Custom power cables-Supra Sub Cable- No Name Toslink Cable - PROUD NZer

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Thank you all very much for your thoughtful suggestions. I will carefully consider your ideas when finally deciding what to buy.


The world of audio is so confusing. After submitting my message to the forum, I visited Conice Audio, the NAD and PSB specialist shop in Central World, another mega-mall in Bangkok. I had burned a test disc with an invention by Bach, vocal music by Vivaldi, a tune from Ray Charles and Betty Carter, and "The Year of The Cat" by Cat Stevens (of course, these were from CDs that I had previously ripped to Apple Lossless. I then burned a compilation disc in iTunes); so I was even predisposed to liking the sounds I heard. I listened eagerly to the NAD M3 with the PSB Platinum T8 and T6 speakers, their top-of-the-line models. I was unimpressed, and sadly, disappointed.


I don’t know if I am describing accurately what I heard, but here goes. The sound from the M3 and PSB was detailed, but too bright and edgy for my tastes. It was too loud, and this had nothing to do with the volume. What I kept thinking about –no, dreaming about longingly – were the silky-smooth sounds I had heard form those beautiful Klipsch speakers the other day. They were not loud, and the music seemed to exist in the air, not emanate from woofers or tweeters. The music was everywhere, but it was not loud. How is this possible? Can I not have this sound without spending so much money?


Lost, I then went to the branch of the Marantz store in Central World. I listened to a top Marantz Reference amplifier, first with a pair of Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 speakers and then Klipsch 17-B bookshelf speakers (They didn’t have those hauntingly-beautiful Klipsch speakers that so completely stole my heart at the Paragon). I don’t know why, but I found these much more enjoyable to listen to than the NAD. Still, they both struck me as somehow being loud.


However, the amplifier was twice as expensive as the NAD M3, and the speakers were at least thrice the price of the PSBs. I would consider buying these, but money is a consideration, and they just didn’t strike the right quality-price balance.


I then listened to the middle-of-the-road Marantz PM-5003 and Mordaunt-Short Mezzo Bookshelf speakers, price-wise, both quite inexpensive at around 20 - 25,000 Baht (U.S. $600) each. Clearly, the sound was not a good as the Marantz Reference combinations described above, but still, in many ways, I liked it better than the NAD M3 and PSB pair. Maybe it was my thrifty bargain-hunter streak kicking-in. And although I would rather have the Marantz Reference option, at around 10-times the price, they are not at all 10 times better.


If I had the space, I would consider saving up for a few (=many) months to buy $20,000 speakers. It’s not just that I don’t want to spend. These speakers are many times better than anything I’ve ever heard. Obviously, the price is astronomical, but so is the quality, and thus, at least, the quality-price ratio is good.


I now fully understand why so many people in CA and Stereophile forums preach about actually listening before buying. Yes, there is no substitute for hearing with one’s own ears. And on a related note, if you’ll indulge my video commentary, there is no substitute for seeing with one’s own eyes.


I had intended to buy the new Samsung LED TV as the reviews were brilliant. I especially liked that it was super-thin and used less energy (I’m not raising the green flag here; I mostly liked that it generated less heat, a big concern if your body is in the tropics, but your heart yearns for the arctic).


I only want to view my DVDs as I have no plans for BlueRay. I used an old DVD, Peter O'Toole and Audrey Hepburn's brilliant but not so well known romantic comedy, "How to Steal a Million". Well, I found the picture in LED as well as LCD TVs not to my liking. The Pioneer Kuro plasmas are so beautiful. And I’ll be investigating whether it is only Pioneer that I find so great, or whether it is plasma TVs in general that are superior. In any case, without seeing first, I would have made a terrible choice here as well.


Pardon the lengthy commentary. I'm enjoying summer vacation now, and I have only time on my hands. Thank you again for your advice. I really do appreciate it.



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I can't get over how many people don't bring music to listen to and a favourite movie to demo products. You need at least "some" point of reference! The other tip is to make sure the TVs are not set on Vivid/Dynamic/Showroom modes which are almost always too bright. Give the Pioneer a whirl its a great TV - grab it before they cease production! And that is from someone working for a competitor brand!!!

Its a shame the NAD gear didn't do it for you as I always have a soft spot for them. Maybe the PSBs were abit too forward for you. The NADS to like to rock but maybe too much.

I would throw two other brands your way Sonus Faber Speakers and Unico/Audio Analogue. All are Itallian made with beautiful finish but more importantly a lush warm sound. I believe models would fall in your price range if you are looking at M3s.


PS3 60bg (160GB installed + Native music Browser)-AVI ADM9.1-Klipsch SW12 Subwoofer-Belkin Power Board- Custom power cables-Supra Sub Cable- No Name Toslink Cable - PROUD NZer

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backrocks ... and yes he does ... it seams from your post that the dealers in your area are very much one manufacturer shops - NAD & PSB; Marantz and Mordent Short; etc. Do you have any dealers who sell a wider range of products who can mix and match a little more? If you have access to the brands, personally I'd go and see if I could try Rotel with B&W especially if you're having to go the "one brand" route because of how dealers are structured.


s for Marantz ... I was reading yesterday that Mordent Short are bringing out a small stand mount version of their "Performance" speaker and this, coupled with the PM8003 amp should be a good combination and, I think, in your price range.


The LCD / Plasma debate rumbles on. My experience has been that in the best conditions (i.e. semi-dark room), Plasma is the best screen technology (especially at 40" or bigger) but that LCD is often a better compromise in less than optimum conditions.






...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Sadly, yeah I saw this coming. Of course it is not so per definition that only high priced equipment sounds good, but sadly a bit of better sound is costly. Well, in general.


It can be otherwise though, but this is only theory;

With lots of effort I created a system around me which I consider the best sounding of the planet, and all the elements I participated in (meaning : they are all twisted to my likings and are consistent within the chain) *and* they are all commercially available. This is speakers, main amps, DAC and software player (only the DAC and software is sold by myself). The whole lot would set you back for USD 17K which is completely peanuts if you'd only dare to consider that best system on the planet.


This is theory because

a. nobody is going to believe anyone claiming to have the best system around (so why would you);

b. the speakers are too oversized (horns) for your room.


I am not telling this out of self interest or whatever, but only because I started out with a system comprising of well over USD 100K (all commercially available products) but over time I wanted to do better and started swapping pieces one by one BUT had influence on them (think of smaller companies who are willing to listen to you, and adjust something in their equipment for the better). It took years of my own time just as well (mainly the trimming of xovers on loudspeakers is very time consuming), but then you really can end up with a system that good, against a so low price.

Oh, I forgot those other years working on the software. :-))


Somewhat more useful information perhaps :


When you perceive sound as "loud" this is because of distortion. Don't think in the area of half tearing loudspeaker driver diaphragms, but merely about harmonic distortion which can have many causes.


A good example for solving things yourself for the better may be your car stereo; When you play louder and things really start to distort (and now I do mean those diaphragms half tearing :-) try to think that 10:1 this will be the amplifier not being able to control the speakers. It's not the speakers, although you will logically think they are the cause.


Another example is in the area of impedance mismatches. And, for home stereo, this is the very first cause to make a system sound loud, too loud S'es and harsh. Not knowing the system, your first idea will be the loudspeakers being bad again, but usually loudspeakers are better than you think (I dare say). Much much more can be squeezed out of loudspeakers, if only the rest of the chain would be better (yeah, I know, everybody will say it the exact other way around).

Impedance mismatches mean that e.g. the amplifier might be very good, the speakers being very good as well, but they won't talk to eachother the proper way (also keep in mind a speaker talks back to the amplifier).


Loudspeakers will become pricey when much time has been spent on just the above, but now merely within itself. This is the crossover area, and -when not careful- the one frequency responding differently than the other, and while the speaker may be capable of presenting both frequencies correctly, the amp will respond differently to both frequencies and the sound will not be "even" the least.

Sidenote : amps like Tripaths are very prone to let loudspeakers suffer, just because the xovers in there didn't take the way a Tripath works into account.


Same thing happens at the preamp talking to the main amp (if you have a pre amp of course), and while the one manufacturer will have arranged for this properly, it certainly may not be so that you want both these parts. Nope, you go for the NAD main amp and the Rotel pre. This is allright by itself, but now it is up to you to do the proper matching. This by itself is not the most difficult (as a rule the output impedance of one device should be 1/10 of the input of the other), but when things don't match BUT each of both elements is superp to your ears in another chain, you should be able to change the impedance of either.

And this is a bit in the area what I referred to : find yourself a (smaller) manufacturer who is willing to do this for you, and half of your system is already there.


At the DAC side towards the pre- or main amp - the same applies. Sadly, this is so so crucial (because everything is amplified behind it) *plus* that no DAC manufacturer (unless DIY) will start tweaking this because of inherent (then) inconsistensies, that it is here where most can be gained. Not that this by itself will help you, but it is the area to put the most attention to.


A little bit following from the latter, is the "drive" a device like a DAC must have, or IOW enough current to "control" the device behind it. By itself this is the impedance again, but in this case things may get a little more complex because this is usually solved by, well, a pre-amp. Now part of the fun starts, because a pre-amp destroys sound anyway. Active or passive, it does, and it does that to the greatest extend. This is funny, because when you leave it out, your first cost reduction is there ...

... which leaves you with the problem of the necessary "drive". This can be solved by a unity gain buffer (a kind of preamp which does not amplify) and although a decent solution for drive (hardly degrading sound), it may mean that the output of the DAC is just too low to have enough SPL (sound pressure level) in the room.


You can start feeling the circles now, because this puts requirements to the main amps, and when you're coincidentally into SE tubes, it puts requirements to the speakers (which solve the problem just by having a very high sensivity).


Hoping you're not in a knot by know, you maybe can see that at taking into account all these things carefully, you are able to select the individual devices of which you know are good and not so pricey. This is "just" what I did, but as said, it takes years to get there.

Key elements are

- software player (not because so cheap or free, but just because it is better than any existing CDP)

- no pre-amp

- a DAC that can cope with the latter

- high sensivity speakers.


When the speakers are done right (like the 115dB in my case) you 100% sure end up with horns.

No, horns do *not* sound like horns, or at least not mine when - and only when no spurs of harmonic distortion are there. This by itself can only happen when the DAC doesn't show bad THD+N figures in the first place including the area above 22KHz !!


Why the latter ? because otherwise chances are fair (if not 100%) your amplifier (or preamp if you have it) chokes on the high frequency content coming from THD. No, you can't hear the high frequencies, but the amp (etc.) gets disturbed by it, and here you have your loud sound again.


Now, might you trust my own system to be rather good the least, you can also trust yourself that it is all not that super difficult, once yo dive into these matters. You already know what you will be doing it for.

Of course I have to add that while you will get away with a software player easily (takes some listening and experience) you most probably won't be able to dictate your own DAC. So in the very end it may make sense to, say, copy my system - which of course should be auditioned first. Now, though, the circle is there, because your listening room will be too small for the speakers (btw definitely not soundwise, but for looks -> bass horn shells are 70cm diameter).


Well, tried my best, and I sure hope this may get you somewhere !



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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks again for contributing to my audio education everyone. This forum is really cool!


I'm not trying to resuscitate a dormant thread, but if anyone’s interested in an update of my quest for finding great sound in Thailand, here’s a report.


The past week I had been reflecting on why I had been dissatisfied with the NAD M3 and PSB Platinum speakers - all very favorably reviewed in Stereophile- and the Reference series Marantz amplifier (or Premium – now, I’m not sure which I heard) with the Mordaunt-Short Performance 6 speakers and then Klipsch 17-B bookshelf speakers. I think I’ve found an answer, but I needed to hear more to understand the reasons.


I’ve been identifying potential audio dealers to visit through online searches. In comparison to Korea, where I live most of the year, there is not so much audio going on online in Thailand – at least in English. I did find several promising references to a Hi-Fi Center near the Central World mall, but when I went there yesterday, most of the stores were dark and empty. It was a 5-story building but more like a ghost town than a shopping mall. Interestingly, the overpass connecting it to the other side of the road had recently been torn down. A crane was parked next to it. Still, I was fed-up with online audio and desperately needed to hear real gear.


The first “shop” I passed was an elderly Thai man selling audio racks in the entrance hall. I continued up the escalator and saw a B&W showroom. In spite of my shyness, I went in. Thankfully, the people were kind enough and happily let me listen to what they had. I heard both a Meridian 551 amplifier with Celestron 300 speakers. The sound was good. I also heard a Nakamichi AV1 with BW 686 speakers. That sound was a little weak. Oddly, he did have a number of Classe amplifiers as well, but I could not listen to those. Well, I felt a little satisfied that at least my audio horizons were broadened a little. Of course, I yearned for more, much more. Excitedly, I continued my mission and returned to the Paragon Mall, where the Audio Research dealer for Thailand has a branch.


I grew up with solid-state low-fi stereo equipment, and although I can remember the cabinet at the local pharmacy, where you could check and buy tubes, I had no idea what they were really for. Since I’ve become fascinated by all things audio, I’ve been coming across many discussions about tubes versus solid state. Without any particular reason, I had always fashioned myself a solid-state guy. But recently, I began reconsidering whether tubes might be just what I needed. Still, from a heat point of view, I like solid state. (I don’t know for a fact but I believe tubes generate more heat??) In fact, I was thrilled reading about class D amplifiers from Rotel. Wow, I could have great sound, avoid heat, and possibly save the planet too!


I guess audio is just like life: there are always compromises. In this case, I thought I’d rather have the extra heat than miss out on dynamite sound. So into the Audio Research dealer I bravely went. I was so full of hope as I swung open the door and was greeted by the Stradivari and Amari speakers of Sonus Faber’s Homage collection. I knew they were there, and had been anticipating seeing and possibly hearing them. I had seen the reviews that criticized SF as being as much furniture as audio, but that didn’t bother me at all. Quite the opposite really.


I briefly told the salesman about my situation. I wanted to buy an amplifier and speakers. I was looking for great sound. And believing that I could never have that great sound unless I spent the money, I gave him too large a budget of 5 to 10 thousand dollars. Of course, I couldn’t afford that immediately, but if I spread out my purchase over the next year, I could manage. We began looking around the room and he pointed out an Audio Research VS 55. I asked if I could listen to it and he agreed. I felt so excited. It was the very first tube-amp I would ever listen to. He said that he needed 5 or 10 minutes to set things up so I looked around the store. Oh, throughout my listening, he used a Mcintosh C 2300 preamplifier.


He first connected it to Sonus Faber Toy bookshelf speakers. Clearly, the sound was not what I was looking for. After a few minutes, I asked him to connect it to the floorstanding model. The sound was better but still not impressive. Behind me, however, were the bookshelf Cremonas, and he kindly moved them so that I could hear them too. Wow, now we were getting somewhere. I listened to the same music again, first a short piano work by Bach, and then the Vivaldi vocal piece. By his time, I was hooked. The piano was not so stunning, but the instruments and voices on the Vivaldi were so exquisite. Really, it was a moment not to forget. I felt excited. I felt in the presence of rich music.


What is so amazing is that I could feel this in spite of the speakers crackling every minute or so. Of course, I knew something was not right, but clearly, the issue was an aberration and not the normal state of affairs. In my primitive analysis, I attributed it to “feedback” (as if I even know what feedback is in a technical sense). The salesman had just let me go with whatever combination he had set up for me, and as he was busy with a customer or some other affair, had not noticed the crackling until I was listening to the Cremona monitors when he came to hear my opinion of them. As I was saying how much I loved them, he apologetically mentioned there must be a bad tube.

He also kindly handed me the binder that had their specials for the season. I asked him if we could hear one of the Mcintosh amplifiers. I know as much about this company as I do Audio Research, which is very little. Still, I recognized they were big names in tube audio.


He went into the back and brought out a Mcintosh MC275. Wow, it was also very cool looking. I wasn’t sure, honestly, how I felt about the industrial look of tube amplifiers. But after hearing the VS 55, I realized I loved the look because I loved the sound. I began my disc with the Bach and Vivaldi. I don’t know if the sound was any different than the VS 55. It was all so lovely. By the time I got to “You and I” by Ray Charles and Betty Carter, I realized I had forgotten where I was and was totally into the music. I can’t remember the last time I had experienced that. (Well, that’s not quite true, but I was young then and in High school, and this is a family forum, so let me pass over that story.)


Then, wondering if I’d get more from bigger speakers, I asked him if he’d lug the Liuto floor models over for a hearing. They are priced the same as the Cremona bookshelf (Cremona is a “better” class in the SF line). I began with the Bach. Wow, this is what I had been waiting for. There was a huge difference in the piano sound. Even on the sweet Cremona monitors, it sounded like the sound of a piano was being emitted by great speakers, but with the Liuto, it was as if there were a piano in room. I didn’t understand this, but I could hear the difference clearly. On the Vivaldi, I had to softly hold back the tears. The music was so beautiful. But on the Ray Charles song, I felt myself gasp in disbelief that I was hearing that sound I first heard on the $20,000 Klipsch speakers two weeks ago. It was profound.


Soon afterwards, I turned the volume down and spoke with the salesman. I was spooked by the experience. I explained I’d return in December and make a purchase. I shook his hand. I hope he didn’t think I was just lazing around listening to his gear for an hour or two. They even served me tea!


By the time I met my wife later that night, I was totally excited. She was surprised I was so animated. Actually, we were both like that the previous evening after we ordered some Mahogany furniture from this great furniture gallery, Siam Wood. But I had double-dosed. The audio on top of the furniture just sent me over the top. I could talk of nothing else.


Now, I am wondering what I should purchase. The speakers are affordable by themselves (180,000 Baht or $5,000, roughly), but I need more gear. Actually, I need to return to the store sometime and listen to an integrated amplifier. That would trim the budget if I didn’t have to buy an Amplifier AND a preamplifier. In any case, I need to save.


I got my first Mac in 1989, and now, twenty years on, I have fallen in love with another, the Mcintosh line of audio gear. What a week!



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