Audio_ELF Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Eloise, the request for this feature usually comes from the home automation installers. I also have a few requests for dual DAC capabilities within the same rack. Actually yes I can see the possibility where there are already ceiling speakers cabled back to a central closet. Do you think LMS's synchronization scheme across three units is a valid solution? I know I can sync a Squeezebox Touch; an old Duet and Squeezelite running on the Vortexbox server. There is a slight delay/lag but it works well enough for me. Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
Miska Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Who would support a kickstarter to make this happen? We could then outsource it on Freelancer.com... I don't think anybody from Finland at least would use such after couple of past example cases. Kickstarter & co are considered illegal money collection by the local police here. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Miska Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Miska you are confusing the similarly named BubbleUPnP Android app, with the BubbleUPnP server application, which as Eloise says performs several proxy type functions for a UPnP media based system, see:BubbleUPnP Server I don't know, I just have one single Bubble UPnP installed on my Android tablet and it has server, renderer and control point all in one application... It can share any content I have on the tablet as UPnP AV Media Server. For example it appears as a server on PlugPlayer on iOS device. I don't necessarily have any other UPnP server running, so what it would be proxying? And how it would proxy something that other UPnP Servers cannot see? Here's screenshot of the server configuration screen (notice the Local Content part): Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Cebolla Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Not sure if you've understood what I'm saying, Miska. The BubbleUPnP app that you're using doesn't need the BubbleUPnP Server software running on another networked device for its 'normal' duties of AV server, control point and renderer. They are totally different and independant software applications which can be used together to perform some special functions, ie, other than the above mentioned or enhancements to them. Some of the functions of the BubbleUPnP Server, don't even involve the BubbleUPnP app. It's actually quite well explained in that link I gave you. Please don't shoot the messenger! We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us. -- Jo Cox Link to comment
Miska Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 The BubbleUPnP app that you're using doesn't need the BubbleUPnP Server software running on another networked device for its 'normal' duties of AV server, control point and renderer. Exactly. I was talking about MinimServer + the BubbleUPnP Android app (the one shown in my screenshot) as a Control Point. The UPnP Server functionality of thus BubbleUPnP thingie can be turned off in this scenario unless there's some content on the Android device that is supposed to be played back. The Renderer is only needed if you'd like to use something like Resonessence Labs HERUS via USB OTG on the Android device for playback (this particular one supports up to 192/24). Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
Cebolla Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Exactly. I was talking about MinimServer + the BubbleUPnP Android app (the one shown in my screenshot) as a Control Point. The UPnP Server functionality of thus BubbleUPnP thingie can be turned off in this scenario unless there's some content on the Android device that is supposed to be played back. The Renderer is only needed if you'd like to use something like Resonessence Labs HERUS via USB OTG on the Android device for playback (this particular one supports up to 192/24).Yes I know. The UPnP server part of the app is especially a bit of an unnecessary drain on my phones battery, so off when not in use. The renderer can be used as a nice portable player for casual listening too, if the device doesn't support USB audio. Even used it once as a joke to shock the wife on her phone with a blast of music, after secretly installing! So definitely not to be confused with the BubbleUPnP Server application for computer or NAS, I hope! We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us. -- Jo Cox Link to comment
Miska Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 So definitely not to be confused with the BubbleUPnP Server application for computer or NAS, I hope! I wasn't even aware of such, but at closer look it seems like a kludge on top of already messy world of UPnP... Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Except for multi-channel; a series of SMS-100 used in Squeezebox mode should offer all this. There is even a plugin for LMS which allows Airplay streams to be played through your Squeezebox. I find iPeng to be as good as the best UPnP control points (on iPad) and if you add the Custom Scan and Custom Browse plugins then extended tagging for classical music becomes possible (akin to MinimServer though more complicated to set up). Eloise Are we all 100% certain a Series SMS-100 in Squeezbox mode won't do multichannel via USB into an e28 or an Oppo 105? I have both these DACs... Multiroom Multi-channel is a huge part of what I want to achieve here... New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Linn doesn't have a Multichannel streamer. But It's interesting that Kinsky will stream MUltichannel PCM to my Oppo 105...as easy as pie.. it just won't do Multichannel DSD. Go figure... It's also ridiculous Linn hasn't put media streaming services right into the heart of Kinsky.. That is insane. Or Songcast mulitcasting straight in there either.. Why haven't they done this? Again Go figure... I have a Linn Majik DSI.. but I never use Kinsky... I still use a Sonos ZP connected to the SPDIF of this player becuase it's way easy to use the Sonos interface and multiroom to this device in that way (despite this not taking advantage of the 24/192 DAc in the Linn)!!! So suck on that Linn!! I hate Linn for not supporting these sort of features in Kinsky and making good software to use with their players....... Good software is at THE HEART of this sort of experience.. They are supposed to be the premium multiroom streaming company... They have the hardware to do stereo DSD on the market right now yet they don't implement it in software , they understand the concept of a Universal player (they had the UniDisk out years ago), they have a large customer base that KNOW how to spend money.. and a great team of custom installers that know all this stuff, they know about streaming like the back of their hand.. They have had years to achieve all this and put it all together but continue to disappoint on all this... New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Anyway. Enough of my Linn Rant. hahaha Back to the SMS-100 in squeezebox mode.. Jesus?? Come in Jesus! Can it do Multichannel in this mode out to the Oppo 105 and e28? New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
vortecjr Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Are we all 100% certain a Series SMS-100 in Squeezbox mode won't do multichannel via USB into an e28 or an Oppo 105? Multiroom Multi-channel is a huge part of what I want to achieve here... Wap, I hope your able to accept or tolerate delays, problems, or suffering without becoming annoyed or anxious...or just be patient if you prefer. FYI Definition from Google search:) In regards to exaSound Linux support for stereo or multichannel playback. I emailed them and offered to work on the Linux driver. They declined my offer and said they would take care of it in house. My recommendation....if you really want that feature you need to band together and let them know. In regards to Oppo this is an interesting alternate. Does it presently support multichannel via the USB input with a Mac or PC? Finally, since it's your agenda here are you willing to fund the purchase of some Oppo gear to advance the development of multichannel capability? Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Wap, I hope your able to accept or tolerate delays, problems, or suffering without becoming annoyed or anxious...or just be patient if you prefer. FYI Definition from Google search:) In regards to exaSound Linux support for stereo or multichannel playback. I emailed them and offered to work on the Linux driver. They declined my offer and said they would take care of it in house. My recommendation....if you really want that feature you need to band together and let them know. In regards to Oppo this is an interesting alternate. Does it presently support multichannel via the USB input with a Mac or PC? Finally, since it's your agenda here are you willing to fund the purchase of some Oppo gear to advance the development of multichannel capability? Jesus R Jesus I have an Oppo 105 already. Not the 105D I'm not sure the 105 does USB DSD... I can't remember: I am juggling so many balls in the air hahaha. ATM I stream multichannel DSD to the 105 just fine via UPnP. (they radically improved this in the recent firmware). It's just not gapless_ With regards to the e28 I've already asked about Linux drivers... It doesn't have them I know, So I am using A+ in basic mode here on a mack book air.. so that sucks.. But sure it would be great to use your Mini Server with the e28!! I mean how close are we to getting this.. just a simple Linux driver..?? this is insane Exasound hasn't done this! So I am onto this already.. I just can't figure out why someone hasn't put all this together and realise all we need is a "universal" UPNP control point piece of software with multicast.. I mean seriously that is all that is needed here.. New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 In regards to Oppo this is an interesting alternate. Does it presently support multichannel via the USB input with a Mac or PC? As far as I was aware USB to the Oppo was strictly 2 channel. And (again iirc) only the 105D supports DSD via USB. Eloise Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Maybe someone should just hack the Sonos PC/MAC control point software New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
vortecjr Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Jesus I have an Oppo 105 already. Not the 105D I'm not sure the 105 does USB DSD... I can't remember: I am juggling so many balls in the air hahaha. ATM I stream multichannel DSD to the 105 just fine via UPnP. (they radically improved this in the recent firmware). It's just not gapless_ With regards to the e28 I've already asked about Linux drivers... It doesn't have them I know, So I am using A+ in basic mode here on a mack book air.. so that sucks.. But sure it would be great to use you Mini Server with the e28!! I mean how close are we to getting this.. just a simple Linux driver.. this is insane Exasound hasn't done this! So I am onto this already.. I just can't figure out why someone hasn't put all this together and realise all we need is a "universal" UPNP control point piece of software with multicast.. I mean seriously that is all that is needed here.. Wap, it doesn't do me any good in your living room.... Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 As far as I was aware USB to the Oppo was strictly 2 channel. And (again iirc) only the 105D supports DSD via USB. Eloise Yep. That's what I thought.. total bummer... typical.. hahaha. Still it probably still doesn't do gapless anyway... I still think UPnP is the way to go to this player anyway...it's cleaner.. but gapless will still be an issue with the Oppo.. New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Wap, it doesn't do me any good in your living room.... Jesus R HUH?? What are you talking about? New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Heck Jesus..what ya mean?? I've got 2 DSD capable DAC's neither of which are being streamed to via USB right now.. An Oppo 105 and an e28 that do Multichannel DSD.. All the files A mutiroom smart wired house heaps of other Sonos zones A Linn Majik DSI I know this stuff! What the heck are you talking about? New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
Miska Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I just can't figure out why someone hasn't put all this together and realise all we need is a "universal" UPNP control point piece of software with multicast.. You want simultaneous multiroom? The problem in that kind of setup is sample clock synchronization between devices, which is complete opposite to what asynchronous USB audio playback is supposed to do. You would need to enforce one master clock and slave all DACs to that, otherwise they will fall out of sync sooner or later. Other alternative is to have pretty relaxed ASRC on each DAC so that they can try to lock into the transmitter's clock. So you get nice sync, but you trade quality. To do this kind of synchronization, studios run Word Clock cable between devices and have a single master clock. If you don't need synchronization and you are OK with out-of-sync cacophony then it'll work just fine without multicast or anything, every renderer playing back the same content on their own pace. To do this it would just need support from the UPnP Control Point, nothing special or magical extensions. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
vortecjr Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 As far as I was aware USB to the Oppo was strictly 2 channel. And (again iirc) only the 105D supports DSD via USB. Eloise Eloise, I was afraid of that...thanks for the clarification. Wap, your agenda just got more expensive. Jesus R SONORE computer audio | opticalRendu | ultraRendu | microRendu | Signature Rendu SE | endPoint | opticalModule DX | Power Supplies | Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 You want simultaneous multiroom? The problem in that kind of setup is sample clock synchronization between devices, which is complete opposite to what asynchronous USB audio playback is supposed to do. You would need to enforce one master clock and slave all DACs to that, otherwise they will fall out of sync sooner or later. Other alternative is to have pretty relaxed ASRC on each DAC so that they can try to lock into the transmitter's clock. So you get nice sync, but you trade quality. To do this kind of synchronization, studios run Word Clock cable between devices and have a single master clock. If you don't need synchronization and you are OK with out-of-sync cacophony then it'll work just fine without multicast or anything, every renderer playing back the same content on their own pace. To do this it would just need support from the UPnP Control Point, nothing special or magical extensions. Sure. I understand all this.. But there isn't even a piece of UPnP control point software that comes close!!! You can't even multiselect zones on PlugPlayer or Kinsky .. one track to one, with another to a different zone..(multisync or not)! And neither have music service streaming right in their GUI... New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Eloise, I was afraid of that...thanks for the clarification. Wap, your agenda just got more expensive. Jesus R LOL Jesus.. look at my hardware set up ATM.. like when did *that* ever stop me! New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
Audio_ELF Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 Deleted Eloise --- ...in my opinion / experience... While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing. And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism. keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out. Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 ^ Thanks for that Eloise hahahahaha New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
wappinghigh Posted June 8, 2014 Author Share Posted June 8, 2014 Look guys (and gal ).. all the pieces of the puzzle are (nearly) there.. They are all sitting there on the table just waiting for someone to put it all together.. Each piece just needs a tiny bit of tweeking, then presto.. it will happen.. For the life of me I fail to understand why people in the industry just don;t do this! hahaha New simplified setup: STEREO- Primary listening Area: Cullen Circuits Mod ZP90> Benchmark DAC1>RotelRKB250 Power amp>KEF Q Series. Secondary listening areas: 1/ QNAP 119P II(running MinimServer)>UPnP>Linn Majik DSI>Linn Majik 140's. 2/ (Source awaiting)>Invicta DAC>RotelRKB2100 Power amp>Rega's. Tertiary multiroom areas: Same QNAP>SMB>Sonos>Various. MULTICHANNEL- MacMini>A+(Standalone mode)>Exasound e28 >5.1 analog out>Yamaha Avantage Receiver>Pre-outs>Linn Chakra power amps>Linn Katan front and sides. Linn Trikan Centre. Velodyne SPL1000 Ultra Link to comment
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