Dirac Live and bass management

[flak]

In Dirac Live the FIR filter length contributes to taking care of phase problems within a single channel.

To take care of timing problems between different channels, there is the relative delay which is set separately for each channel (as well as the relative gain).

 

Flavio

[LocutusEstBorg]

Can we get a clear answer on where bass management needs to be done with regard to Dirac Live on Windows?

 

For the average user using standard software, Dirac Processor is the default playback device and all 7.1 channels are directly presented to Dirac without any bass management. In this case bass management has to be done on the physical output device (sound card / receiver). Dirac will correct the combined response resulting in a smooth crossover. However this gives Dirac incorrect information about the individual channels (it thinks everything is full range) and the timing will be incorrect (partially from the subwoofer several feet away from the speaker). Due to its plug and play and globally active nature throughout the OS, I assume this is the intended configuration. The crossover cannot be changed after calibration.

 

Advanced users may use analog power amplifiers or Direct Mode in their receivers and perform bass management in their audio software before Dirac Processor. This will result in correct measurement of each physical speaker, but since the crossover frequency and slope is unknown to Dirac, this region will be incorrect. It also makes the system unusable outside of audio software that does not support bass management. The crossover can be changed without recalibration.

[bommai]

According to FAQ - Technical — Dirac bass management should be done before Dirac Live correction is applied. This means that if you are using a software Dirac on Windows or Mac, you should setup bass management on the Mac/PC and do the bass management before it goes to the Dirac Live virtual audio device. I played around with JRiver Media Center today on my Mac. It has a very user unfriendly interface but it seems to have the interface to do bass management - don't know if it actually works properly or not. I wish there was bass management built-into the mac at the OS level so that it can be applied before it goes through Dirac. Paying hundreds of $$ on Dirac for Mac and not even getting bass management is not good. Glad I did not buy yet. I am still looking. I want a Dirac solution for my music as well as movies.

[LocutusEstBorg]

Equalizer APO is the best solution for global bass management before Dirac Live. You can apply both HPF, LPF, and subwoofer mixing in Equalizer APO. I prefer to apply 4th order HPFs in Dirac Live by manually editing the target curve file, and apply 4th order LPFs and subwoofer mixing in Equalizer APO. This prevents unnecessary boosting of low frequencies in Dirac Live since the HPF is applied to the target curve itself.

[Kal Rubinson]

According to FAQ - Technical — Dirac bass management should be done before Dirac Live correction is applied. This means that if you are using a software Dirac on Windows or Mac, you should setup bass management on the Mac/PC and do the bass management before it goes to the Dirac Live virtual audio device. I played around with JRiver Media Center today on my Mac. It has a very user unfriendly interface but it seems to have the interface to do bass management - don't know if it actually works properly or not.

Your analysis is correct but, IMHO, JRiver is a friendly way to do this.

 

1. If you use Dirac in an external box (not in the MAC/PC where you can do bass management using JRiver), the issue is resolved since the Dirac gadget follows BM.

 

2. If you use Dirac in the same MAC/PC where you do BM, the Dirac app takes the ASIO/WASAPI output of JRiver, so just set JRiver to execute the BM.

 

3. If you use Dirac in the same MAC/PC where you do BM, you can use the VST plug-in version of Dirac and simply set up JRiver to execute the BM before Dirac. It is a matter of ordering their execution order from a list.

[LocutusEstBorg]

Your analysis is correct but, IMHO, JRiver is a friendly way to do this.

 

1. If you use Dirac in an external box (not in the MAC/PC where you can do bass management using JRiver), the issue is resolved since the Dirac gadget follows BM.

 

2. If you use Dirac in the same MAC/PC where you do BM, the Dirac app takes the ASIO/WASAPI output of JRiver, so just set JRiver to execute the BM.

 

3. If you use Dirac in the same MAC/PC where you do BM, you can use the VST plug-in version of Dirac and simply set up JRiver to execute the BM before Dirac. It is a matter of ordering their execution order from a list.

 

This does not help other applications like the brower or games. Doing it globally with Equalizer APO is much better. There is really no reason to use anything else. Equalizer APO attaches to the Dirac Audio Processor virtual device and performs bass management just before it for all audio on the system.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

This does not help other applications like the brower or games. Doing it globally with Equalizer APO is much better. There is really no reason to use anything else. Equalizer APO attaches to the Dirac Audio Processor virtual device and performs bass management just before it for all audio on the system.

 

I do not think I could use Equalizer APO, since it is incompatible with the driver for my DAC which uses ASIO.

 

I have been been using JRiver for years for Bass Management and with the Dirac Live plugin. I have been very happy with that arrangement. All my audio/video sources come from within JRiver, so there is no issue.

 

I do no use it, but JRiver also offers its WDM driver, which accepts input into JRiver from Windows sources like the web browser and games:

 

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver

[Fitzcaraldo215]

3. If you use Dirac in the same MAC/PC where you do BM, you can use the VST plug-in version of Dirac and simply set up JRiver to execute the BM before Dirac. It is a matter of ordering their execution order from a list.

 

Kal - I was not aware that there might be an "execution order" issue when BM and Dirac VST are used together in JRiver. Yes, I definitely want the BM crossovers and bass summation to be done upstream of Dirac in DSP. I thought that might be automatic in this case. But, where do I look for this in JRiver so I can verify?

[LocutusEstBorg]

I do not think I could use Equalizer APO, since it is incompatible with the driver for my DAC which uses ASIO.

 

I have been been using JRiver for years for Bass Management and with the Dirac Live plugin. I have been very happy with that arrangement. All my audio/video sources come from within JRiver, so there is no issue.

 

I do no use it, but JRiver also offers its WDM driver, which accepts input into JRiver from Windows sources like the web browser and games:

 

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver

It's installed per device. Dirac Audio Processor is a WDM driver which is compatible with Equalizer APO. The actual sound card doesn't matter to Equalizer APO when using it with Dirac Audio Processor.

 

jRiver WDM is still laggy for me.

[Kal Rubinson]

This does not help other applications like the brower or games.

Browser? You can stream most such audio through JRiver. Never do games.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal - I was not aware that there might be an "execution order" issue when BM and Dirac VST are used together in JRiver. Yes, I definitely want the BM crossovers and bass summation to be done upstream of Dirac in DSP. I thought that might be automatic in this case. But, where do I look for this in JRiver so I can verify?

When you go to Tools>Options>Audio>DSP, the list of operations on the left side can be reordered to determine the order of execution. Just click and drag.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

It's installed per device. Dirac Audio Processor is a WDM driver which is compatible with Equalizer APO. The actual sound card doesn't matter to Equalizer APO when using it with Dirac Audio Processor.

 

jRiver WDM is still laggy for me.

 

Thanks, and this tip may prove useful to some out there. But, I still would not want to use it.

 

In my case, I prefer a chain of virtual "sound cards" like this:

 

JRiver (with embedded Dirac VST plugin) > Exasound ASIO driver > DAC

 

That is as opposed to:

 

JRiver or other PC sound application > Equalizer APO > Dirac Audio Processor> ASIO Driver > DAC.

 

Through experience, I prefer the software linkage that has the fewest "hops". Integration is much easier that way, I find.

 

I do not know if JRiver WDM is any good or not. I have not used it, as I said.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

When you go to Tools>Options>Audio>DSP, the list of operations on the left side can be reordered to determine the order of execution. Just click and drag.

 

Aha! Many thanks, Kal.

[LocutusEstBorg]

Through experience, I prefer the software linkage that has the fewest "hops".

The VST chain is the most efficient, for a single application. However if you are using Dirac Audio Processor system-wide, then the Equalizer APO chain is far more efficient than using jRiver WDM, since it's just an APO DLL that's loaded as part of the Dirac Audio Processer driver itself - there would be only one virtual sound card, not two.

 

I don't see the point in leaving the rest of your system and all its applications uncalibrated, and not even bass-managed.

[LocutusEstBorg]

Browser? You can stream most such audio through JRiver. Never do games.

Like I said before, the current version of the jRiver WDM driver is not as fast or stutter free as the Dirac Audio Processor WDM driver. I find the click to sound delay unacceptable even for the browser, let alone games.

[Kal Rubinson]

Like I said before, the current version of the jRiver WDM driver is not as fast or stutter free as the Dirac Audio Processor WDM driver. I find the click to sound delay unacceptable even for the browser, let alone games.

 

We've gotten your point but we think otherwise.

[jrobbins50]

Kal, I made the plunge into Roon, setting it up with 8 different DACs around the house using RPi3s as Roon bridges but for the miniDSP multichannel DAC direct connected to my i7 core servwr.

 

Setup in the i7 core is W2012R with AO.

 

I still haven't gone Dirac because, for two channel audio, I've been quite pleased with the simple use of Audyssey XT32 in my Marantz 7702 preamp. But, as you know, the miniDSP output is analog and Marantz doesn't apply Audyssey to the multichannel analog input on the preamp. My arrangement is 5.2 with two subwoofers, which the Marantz is handling for two channel audio. Muddy sounding bass in multichannel with no sound correction. Maybe now is finally the time for Dirac.

 

A few preliminary questions:

 

1. Can Dirac nowadays be installed and configured on a W2012R server with the VST plug and run under AO?

 

2. As I am abandoning JRiver but for using JRemote to stream outside of my home, what would I use for bass management in the i7 server in front of Dirac and Roon? I assume I can't run BM in JRiver and output it to Dirac and then through Roon, correct?

 

3. Since I have other two channel setups at home, can Dirac be configured to apply sound correction in the i7 core individually for each DAC and its locale in the home, assuming of course I run measurements for each room?

 

Thanks. JCR

[Kal Rubinson]

A few preliminary questions:

 

1. Can Dirac nowadays be installed and configured on a W2012R server with the VST plug and run under AO?

 

2. As I am abandoning JRiver but for using JRemote to stream outside of my home, what would I use for bass management in the i7 server in front of Dirac and Roon? I assume I can't run BM in JRiver and output it to Dirac and then through Roon, correct?

 

3. Since I have other two channel setups at home, can Dirac be configured to apply sound correction in the i7 core individually for each DAC and its locale in the home, assuming of course I run measurements for each room?

 

Thanks. JCR

I am only a novice with Roon which, so far, I find a bit off-putting and I cannot really help because I've never used W21012R and do not yet know how to do BM in Roon. You would be well advised to put these questions to the Roon community.

[jrobbins50]

Message into Roon. I will report back here on what I get back as a response. Flavio from Dirac, you may have some wisdom to offer up here on this topic as well, as I bet your team has been doing compatibility testing with Roon.

 

And Kal, I've never know you to be off-putted by anything. I rather have found Roon far easier to configure than JRMC and other than not being able to select tracks by folder and file, I find the library to be way more intuitive and helpful. What has irked you in Roon (maybe I haven't found it yet)? Thanks. JCR

[Kal Rubinson]

And Kal, I've never know you to be off-putted by anything. I rather have found Roon far easier to configure than JRMC and other than not being able to select tracks by folder and file, I find the library to be way more intuitive and helpful. What has irked you in Roon (maybe I haven't found it yet)? Thanks. JCR

I am giving Roon another try now that it does MCH. Report soon.