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PS Audio "Sprout" - audiophile HW for millenials?


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Remote, or lack of it? [...] Had we wanted to include a proper remote--made of materials like those used in Sprout's casework--it would have added at least $100 to the MSRP...and again, we didn't WANT a remote.

I suspect that might have been targeted at my comment... but if so you have avoided answering my question. Was no remote control purely a design decision, or did you do market research and found people who might purchase the Sprout did not want a remote?

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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The decision was made internally, a seat-of-the-pants decision, based upon the idea of a closer connection to the device--and from there, to the music.

If you don't mind me saying... In my opinion you've cut off your nose to spite your face with that decision. But admittedly I'm not part of a successful audio company...

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Easy? Perhaps if one is working in Apple-ish quantities, with captive OEM houses and near-slave labor. For most companies, no way, no how. Even under the best of circumstances, it would be difficult to produce the quality of casework and componentry of Sprout for at a price that would enable it to be sold at $249. Sorry, I don't see that happening.

 

I would challenge you to examine audio products in the $250-$500 range, and then look at those in the $800-$1000 range. Sprout appears and feels like a product from the higher price range, in terms of heft, material quality, and feel of switchgear. Certainly the mix of features and the performance of those features indicates that the product came from a company with a lot of experience in producing high-value products (modest pat on back for PS). And if you bring sound-quality into the mix...fuhgeddaboutit. Sprout blows the others away.

 

I am not trying to touch a nerve here, but I notice you didn't answer the questions. There is nothing that expensive in the Sprout, and it came out priced like a typical high end product, front loaded profit *just like the Apple*.

 

So - comparison?

 

Okay, take the Sprout, the NAD D3020, and the Cambridge Audio Azure 651A and compare them. They all sell for roughly the same price. Yes, the Sprout has a nice wood top. Does that do *anything* at all to improve the sound? How about the usability, compared to the other two with remotes?

 

Or to compare back up in the $799 region, how about compared to a Peachtree Nove65SE at $799?

 

Now again, do not get me wrong. I very much like PS Audio, but the Sprout being a bargain? Come again please? It is designed and priced to appeal to a certain customer set, and not necessarily to be the absolute best sounding hunk of equipment for the money. I do not own a Sprout, but I got to play with one at home for a week, and I don't get a particular "high end" feel off the device. I get the feeling of a well built, well designed solid bit of kit, but one that at $799 was perhaps overpriced. At $250, it would be a bargain. At $500 - with a remote - it would also be a bargain. Without, perhaps not su much.

 

Again, YMMV, TINAR, IMHO, etc. Not trying to convince anyone of anything, just disagreeing with the marketing hype about the device.

 

As for manufacturing, yep. OEM down in Santiago could probably do the assembly and hit those cost margins. As could a number of shops in China and elsewhere.

Design in America, build where it's cheap.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I'm not sure exactly what questions you're referring to--I see a lot of statements here. I will say that I'm bemused by the statement that Sprout as "priced like a typical high end product"--you think the NAD and Cambridge aren't built to standard margins?

 

I routinely see both drastically discounted, yet no one seems to think that those products were overpriced. How odd.

40-year veteran of the audio biz/Director of Marketing, PS Audio

Editor, Copper.

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I'm not sure exactly what questions you're referring to--I see a lot of statements here.

 

Seriously?

How many of the components are sourced soley from US sources? Is it assembled here in the US or in an offshore plant? If not offshore, why not?

I will say that I'm bemused by the statement that Sprout as "priced like a typical high end product"--you think the NAD and Cambridge aren't built to standard margins?

 

I am glad you find comparisons to the same or lower priced gear amusing.

 

I never said they were not built to standard margins - I just had doubts they are using the same "standard" margins you are using. Evidently, that is so, since you just "drastically discounted" the Sprout. No? Or would you care to share sales figures that would make outside calculations possible?

 

I routinely see both drastically discounted, yet no one seems to think that those products were overpriced. How odd.

 

That is odd, at least from a particular point of view. But then, none of those products are aimed at "non-traditional" audio markets either, so perhaps that has something to do with it. The Spout seems to be aimed not at the best sound for the buck audiophile crowd, but rather at the hipster crowd who thinks the cool part of stereo is getting up to change the volume.

 

While I would expect a little bit of a higher price from PS Audio - i do allow as it takes a hunk of money to finance all that PS Audio does and still provide decent incomes from all the people working there - I would not expect to be presented as anything other than a higher price based upon <fill in the blank.>

 

One of those questions by the way, was along the lines of "does the more expensive wood top do anything at all for the sound?"

 

-Paul

 

 

 

 

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Regarding sourcing of components--anyone who has worked in manufacturing would recognize that as a loaded question that is nearly impossible to answer, especially regarding electronic components. Sprout is produced offshore, as is mentioned in almost every review. So are the other units you mentioned.

 

I said "bemused", not "amused". Everyone in the industry works to the same basic multiples. If they don't, they don't survive.

 

I have no more intention of sharing sales figures than does any other privately-held company. I mentioned we'd sold a couple thousand Sprouts; that's close enough.

 

I'm done here. Have fun.

40-year veteran of the audio biz/Director of Marketing, PS Audio

Editor, Copper.

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I find the responses here...curious.

A respected audio company designs and makes a fairly high end "all in one" device designed for younger audiophiles who use turntables.

At $799 it is widely seen (check reviews) as fairly priced and a good value - don't forget it includes a fairly good phono preamp.

It's a success in terms of sales (see above), but the producer sees that too many sales are to existing audiophiles and not to the younger set. So since the item has recouped it's investment, they lower the price and profit margin significantly in an attempt to market it to the younger more price sensitive crowd.

 

And for that, they basically get...criticism. "It doesn't have a remote" and "It's still too expensive".

 

I think the response is small minded.

 

1. It isn't being marketed to you. Time will tell if it will succeed. But the preferences of existing audiophiles have little to do with the design choices, etc. PS Audio made a well considered decision (SEE ABOVE) not to include a remote. Cost, design constraints, and their understanding of their target market (youngish turntable users, who are interested in sound and style) all played a part. BTW, it's not exactly the only audiophile device on the market without a remote.

 

2. I think we should cheer them on for the price reduction, not criticize them for it. Those of you who are sure it can profitably be sold for $250 based on your years of experience designing, building, and marketing audio equipment - step right up and prove it to us.

 

Funny, the USB Regen sells for $170 and has been acclaimed here as a bargain. Where are all of you posting to Alex about how he could make a profit selling his device for $60?

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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1. It isn't being marketed to you. Time will tell if it will succeed. But the preferences of existing audiophiles have little to do with the design choices, etc. PS Audio made a well considered decision (SEE ABOVE) not to include a remote. Cost, design constraints, and their understanding of their target market (youngish turntable users, who are interested in sound and style) all played a part. BTW, it's not exactly the only audiophile device on the market without a remote.

What I am questioning IS their "understanding of the target market".

 

I really can't see "youngish turntable users" wanting a device without a remote control for a least volume control. You are in some ways contradicting yourself when you defend it as "it's not exactly the only audiophile device on the market without a remote" considering you comment that its not aimed at the traditional market. To my mine, having a remote control would appear to be an essential function for the target market. Just seamed a curious decision / cost compromise to me and one I could not see non-Audiophile friends living with.

 

As I say though ... I'm not part of a successful audio company so what do I know?

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Hi Bill Leebens,

 

Don't mean to pile on with the criticism (just take this as constructive customer feedback), but I've always believed that not including remote control kills at least half of potential sales. I don't get how this would not be obvious? Personally, no volume RC is an immediate deal breaker, and everyone I know shares this same view. Remote volume control should be included in all products, without exception, IMO.

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Hi Bill Leebens,

 

Don't mean to pile on with the criticism (just take this as constructive customer feedback), but I've always believed that not including remote control kills at least half of potential sales. I don't get how this would not be obvious? Personally, no volume RC is an immediate deal breaker, and everyone I know shares this same view. Remote volume control should be included in all products, without exception, IMO.

 

Perhaps the marketing concept was trying to emulate the simplicity of this magic device? It usually doesn't come with a remote either.

 

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Regarding sourcing of components--anyone who has worked in manufacturing would recognize that as a loaded question that is nearly impossible to answer, especially regarding electronic components. Sprout is produced offshore, as is mentioned in almost every review. So are the other units you mentioned.

 

I said "bemused", not "amused". Everyone in the industry works to the same basic multiples. If they don't, they don't survive.

 

I have no more intention of sharing sales figures than does any other privately-held company. I mentioned we'd sold a couple thousand Sprouts; that's close enough.

 

I'm done here. Have fun.

 

And I was being polite about your arrogant commentary. I clearly identified what I said as only my opinion. But basically you are asking for praise about a device I simply see as a marketing gimmick, not as a real audiophile advance. And an expensive devi e for the young audiophile market. As I said, your milage may vary about that. (Shrug)

 

As for retreating behind the "everyone does it and if you were one of us you would already know the details" - well - perhaps. You will excuse me if I do not agree with you. Transparency is indeed a two edged sword, and I completely understand why you prefer to be opaque about such things.

 

In the meantime, gear of what appears to be similar quality and sound, manufactured in the U.S. Seems to be price competitve, and gear manufactured offshore seems to be much more price competitive. Usually minus the expensive but non sonic features like a wood top.

 

As I said in the beginning, my opinion is simply that it is targeted for another market. It is popular among some folks here in Austin. The lack of a remote control is both a money saving device, and a marketing tool to the hipster crowd. And a showstopper for some people. (Shrug)

 

I am glad you have sold "thousands" of them. Perhaps you have tapped into a mass market audience or something. As to standard margins however, like I said, I am all for making a living. But justifying the price with opaque margins is just BS.

 

Also probably won't sit that well with folks who shelled out $800 for one either. I know I would be annoyed - "We got enough people to pay us for this that we can sell even more of them now at a lower cost and still make money" is what you are saying. I of course, would see that as a misprice from the beginning.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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I find the responses here...curious.

A respected audio company designs and makes a fairly high end "all in one" device designed for younger audiophiles who use turntables.

At $799 it is widely seen (check reviews) as fairly priced and a good value - don't forget it includes a fairly good phono preamp.

It's a success in terms of sales (see above), but the producer sees that too many sales are to existing audiophiles and not to the younger set. So since the item has recouped it's investment, they lower the price and profit margin significantly in an attempt to market it to the younger more price sensitive crowd.

 

And for that, they basically get...criticism. "It doesn't have a remote" and "It's still too expensive".

 

I think the response is small minded.

 

1. It isn't being marketed to you. Time will tell if it will succeed. But the preferences of existing audiophiles have little to do with the design choices, etc. PS Audio made a well considered decision (SEE ABOVE) not to include a remote. Cost, design constraints, and their understanding of their target market (youngish turntable users, who are interested in sound and style) all played a part. BTW, it's not exactly the only audiophile device on the market without a remote.

 

2. I think we should cheer them on for the price reduction, not criticize them for it. Those of you who are sure it can profitably be sold for $250 based on your years of experience designing, building, and marketing audio equipment - step right up and prove it to us.

 

Funny, the USB Regen sells for $170 and has been acclaimed here as a bargain. Where are all of you posting to Alex about how he could make a profit selling his device for $60?

 

 

Gee - let off enough steam there?

 

My kids see it as an expensive way to get sound out of their iPhones. The under 30 set at work prefer Sonos or a bluetooth speaker system, again to get sound out of their phones or pads. The audiophile set around here thinks it is cute, but does not match up all that well with $10k turntables, or even with their parent's Linn.

 

It *is* marketed to a different market. But the price drop being out of the goodness of their hearts? I would expect it is to simply sell more of the existing units. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I think if you talk to Alex, you will find him quite transparent about the materials, construction, and pricing of their gear. Also, a Regen is a lot less gear than an integrated amp, and in total falls into a pricing category that is under the threshold of pain for most audiophiles. Whom are indeed, the Regen's target market.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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The Sprout seems to live in a sort of no-mans land market wise. It is not quite cool enough or cheap enough to be an intro product to HiFi. Make it out of plastic, add a pair of powered speakers and sell it as an all-in-one unit, just connect your phone by blue tooth. At the other end, I have a feeling that those potential customers who have graduated to a desire for better are already looking at more capable equipment. The product kinds of seems like the "cottage" or "office" system to me.

Jim

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I find the responses here...curious.

 

Firedog, thanks for your post.

 

Some years ago a Well-Known Journalist was bemoaning the fact that he was always a target on online forums, while others of far lower integrity went unscathed. I told him, "it's because you RESPOND."

 

We're faced with a dilemma here: most manufacturers stay away from forums because they are greeted with snarky condescension and the "expertise" of those with zero experience in the field. So what's the result? Most manufacturers participate only in their own, tightly-moderated forums.

 

I've tried to go out beyond that captive audience. I don't expect fawning, nor would I respect it. But the piling-on of cheesy one-liners is adolescent, if not downright infantile.

 

I've explained the reasoning behind our product. If you don't agree with our choices, fine: we knew from the outset it wouldn't be for everyone. And that's okay.

 

I've attempted to respond respectfully to questions ranging from reasonable to intrusive and rude, and I've tried to do so reasonably. Yes, I may have gotten a tad testy at the repetition, and as a result I find myself being described as arrogant. Oh, well. I regarded it as responding in kind, and a bit of self-defense. If all that's allowed here is passivity , I guess I'm not your guy.

40-year veteran of the audio biz/Director of Marketing, PS Audio

Editor, Copper.

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I find the responses here...curious.

 

Firedog, thanks for your post.

 

Some years ago a Well-Known Journalist was bemoaning the fact that he was always a target on online forums, while others of far lower integrity went unscathed. I told him, "it's because you RESPOND."

 

We're faced with a dilemma here: most manufacturers stay away from forums because they are greeted with snarky condescension and the "expertise" of those with zero experience in the field. So what's the result? Most manufacturers participate only in their own, tightly-moderated forums.

 

I've tried to go out beyond that captive audience. I don't expect fawning, nor would I respect it. But the piling-on of cheesy one-liners is adolescent, if not downright infantile.

 

I've explained the reasoning behind our product. If you don't agree with our choices, fine: we knew from the outset it wouldn't be for everyone. And that's okay.

 

I've attempted to respond respectfully to questions ranging from reasonable to intrusive and rude, and I've tried to do so reasonably. Yes, I may have gotten a tad testy at the repetition, and as a result I find myself being described as arrogant. Oh, well. I regarded it as responding in kind, and a bit of self-defense. If all that's allowed here is passivity , I guess I'm not your guy.

 

Bill, thanks for your efforts. I started following the Computer Audiophile forum several years ago, and found it very useful. In my opinion, the forum has steadily degenerated, and I no longer read it for information. It's like a bad soap opera, and I just can't make myself look away.

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I find the responses here...curious.

 

Firedog, thanks for your post.

 

Some years ago a Well-Known Journalist was bemoaning the fact that he was always a target on online forums, while others of far lower integrity went unscathed. I told him, "it's because you RESPOND."

 

We're faced with a dilemma here: most manufacturers stay away from forums because they are greeted with snarky condescension and the "expertise" of those with zero experience in the field. So what's the result? Most manufacturers participate only in their own, tightly-moderated forums.

 

I've tried to go out beyond that captive audience. I don't expect fawning, nor would I respect it. But the piling-on of cheesy one-liners is adolescent, if not downright infantile.

 

I've explained the reasoning behind our product. If you don't agree with our choices, fine: we knew from the outset it wouldn't be for everyone. And that's okay.

 

I've attempted to respond respectfully to questions ranging from reasonable to intrusive and rude, and I've tried to do so reasonably. Yes, I may have gotten a tad testy at the repetition, and as a result I find myself being described as arrogant. Oh, well. I regarded it as responding in kind, and a bit of self-defense. If all that's allowed here is passivity , I guess I'm not your guy.

 

Yeah- well, Mikey lets himself in for that kind of stuff.

 

Let me be clear, I stated the Sprout was not targeted to my demographic, and you challenged anyone to find comparable products at the same price. I gave you some examples. Then you got rather arrogant about how expert you are in the manufacturing field, with no idea at all if I had any experience there (I do) and that you just used the industry "standard margins."

 

You claim to have sold thousands of Sprouts - well and good. Two thousand Sprout's would generate $1.6M in gross sales. Not bad at all.

 

But this "oh look at me being attacked by the nasty person on CA who doesn't know anything at all" bull corn is just that.

 

There is a vendor area on this forum where you can control and moderate the conversation to your advantage, but it is far more difficult to do that on the open forums. I suggest you contact Chris and pay him to give you such an area. I can promise you, I won't go in it. Nor after this conversation will I buy or recommend PS products, no matter how much I actually like them.

 

Life is way to short to deal with marketing types who feel anyone who asks them actual real questions is leveling a personal attack at them. Question you first say were not asked, then decline to answer with an arrogant twist, designed to leave people believing that the questions were not answerable by any good "high end" audio manufacturer.

 

To be honest, I am not at all interested in you, but the products? Yes, those I am interested in. Or was. Whatever, marketing to the hipster and pseudo-hipster crowd is definitely different from marketing to engineers and professionals, as well as the rest of the audiophile world.

 

-Paul

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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Well, at least this topic called my attention to what is considered to be the Millennials...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials

 

 

There is always one positive side...

 

demographically and don't seem many of those Millennials on the few remaining hifi stores...

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I do! It fills out my top 5 necessities of life list, along with sex, guitars, scotch, and sushi.

 

A compelling point...

 

However I would list them as wants, not needs.

 

I need food, water, and shelter. I want audio, red wine, and the continuing affection of my wife :-)

 

Audio equipment falls into the category of a First World problem...and I agree with a previous poster that it has become increasingly contentious here given that most of us are music lovers.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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