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Unwanted Noise, Help Please!!


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Try connecting everything to a single power strip and see if that solves your issue.

 

This is not external interference or due to the components in your system - certainly not due to cables.

It's almost certainly a grounding issue.

 

Hasn't solved it unfortunately.

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Hmm, I'm not really sure what to suggest then, other than trying some sort of isolating product.

The only time I experienced this was when using on-board sound connected to an amplifier on a different power outlet, and moving everything to a power strip on the same outlet fixed it if I remember correctly.

 

I've since read that these problems (specifically hearing noise that changes as you use the CPU or move the mouse around etc.) are related to a grounding issue.

 

As I understood things, running everything off a single power strip should avoid a ground loop (which is typically a loud hum - but not always) but it doesn't seem that it has solved this for you.

 

I've spent some time looking around at USB isolators this evening, and it appears that most designs with total isolation are limited to 12mbps, unless you spend a lot of money on an optical extension. (some companies have devices which will handle USB3 speeds)

 

12mbps is essentially USB1 speed and would be limited to 24/96.

 

I don't think this is true for the iFi iUSBPower.

I think the device simply severs the power connection to your PC and replaces it with an external power supply, so you only have partial galvanic isolation.

It seems like an expensive device for all that it's doing.

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One question I'm not sure anyone has asked...

 

Do you have access to another computer you can test the DAC with. Even just a borrowed laptop with iTunes on it.

 

Just make sure there isn't an issue with the rPAC.

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Ground loops (in general).

 

I am indebted to HMS Elektronik Leverkusen (DE) for the illustration, sorry they are in German, but a picture often speaks a thousand words.

The differences in the chassis voltages (U) between components using RCA plugs will always be there.

 

The red dotted lines are unwanted currents caused by the non equal voltages between the CD player and the amplifier caused by plugging them into the power outlets.

ground loops 1 DE.jpg

 

 

Because the OP is using a computer, use this to substitute the CD in the illustration. The same principal applies. If you have a Cable connection to your TV or Tuner, or another RF generator... (computer) having a third stage creates more of difference in voltages, so you not only get hum but higher frequencies, well, why not!

 

ground loops 2 DE.jpg

 

One way is to shunt the currents to a lower impedance for the noise to travel. It depends on the frequency, but for the OP problem, the noise is HF. Classically braids work, but it means looping each component with a braid or star them.... that's going to look really great, not.

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I think the device simply severs the power connection to your PC and replaces it with an external power supply, so you only have partial galvanic isolation.

It seems like an expensive device for all that it's doing.

 

I was thinking along the lines of the IsoEarth feature that removes the common connection and creates a new one to be of benefit. The 5V generation from the iUSB is more the bonus. The iUSB doesn't restrict the transmission speeds, it passes DSD, PCM to 384k, so no issues there.

 

The choices are to spend on the iUSB or a DAC with XLR outs.

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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I was thinking along the lines of the IsoEarth feature that removes the common connection and creates a new one to be of benefit. The 5V generation from the iUSB is more the bonus. The iUSB doesn't restrict the transmission speeds, it passes DSD, PCM to 384k, so no issues there.
Yes - when I said "severs the power connection" I meant power + ground.

I should have been more clear about that.

 

It does seem that it is likely to solve this problem without restricting the connection to USB1 speeds as most true isolators do. (the devices which isolate power and data)

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One question I'm not sure anyone has asked...

 

Do you have access to another computer you can test the DAC with. Even just a borrowed laptop with iTunes on it.

 

Just make sure there isn't an issue with the rPAC.

 

So I just connected the rPAC and Speakers to my laptop and the same noise was present (although it was definitely a bit quieter). Furthermore, I connected the VXT6s directly to the rPAC (taking the 10s subwoofer out of the equation) and the noise was a little quieter, but again, still there. What does these things mean? Does this change things at all? The noise is most certainly linked to my processor/computer. Every time I move the mouse, scroll or click on anything it makes sounds. I'm stumped...I'm beginning to think the rPAC is problematic...

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So I just connected the rPAC and Speakers to my laptop and the same noise was present (although it was definitely a bit quieter). Furthermore, I connected the VXT6s directly to the rPAC (taking the 10s subwoofer out of the equation) and the noise was a little quieter, but again, still there. What does these things mean? Does this change things at all? The noise is most certainly linked to my processor/computer. Every time I move the mouse, scroll or click on anything it makes sounds. I'm stumped...I'm beginning to think the rPAC is problematic...

 

Your PC should have 3.5mm stereo jack from an internal sound card?

 

Check with the headphones at the audio out jack. Wind the volume up on the player app and don't play any music, move the mouse around, any noise?

 

Connect the audio out from PC directly to the RCA inputs of the woofer, the noise should still be there, the test will prove if the rPac makes anything worse or better.

 

Did you get the washers?

AS Profile Equipment List        Say NO to MQA

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Perhaps you should try the suggestion from One and a half about taking a spare USB cable and disrupting the shield at the device end, to see if that substantially improves matters. You also need to try what One and a half said about improving the earth integrity in the PC itself. What I see in the photo from the visible dangling cabling suggests that making things so compact may also be aggravating the situation. A DAC is only as good as the source that supplies it.

Sorry to be so negative.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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So I just connected the rPAC and Speakers to my laptop and the same noise was present (although it was definitely a bit quieter). Furthermore, I connected the VXT6s directly to the rPAC (taking the 10s subwoofer out of the equation) and the noise was a little quieter, but again, still there. What does these things mean? Does this change things at all? The noise is most certainly linked to my processor/computer. Every time I move the mouse, scroll or click on anything it makes sounds. I'm stumped...I'm beginning to think the rPAC is problematic...

I've no idea how long you've had the rPAC ... but it may be worth getting back in touch with your dealer and explaining the issue. If there is a problem with noise with two different computers you may do better looking at alternatives (perhaps iFi Nano iDSD DAC which is a similar price) rather than struggling with time and (possibly) money trying to eliminate noise at the computer.

 

Just offering an alternative point of view...

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Just offering an alternative point of view...

 

Eloise

A blinkered point of view perhaps ? (grin)

Do you really believe that an iFi Nano iDSD DAC , as good as it may be with it's battery supply, is going to perform at it's best from a computer with way higher than average RF/EMI spewing out of it ? There is a whole industry devoted to reducing this kind of rubbish from computers where the same signs are far less obvious, but nevertheless degrade SQ.

The aftermarket USB cable and USB accessory card/device industry !

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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What I see in the photo from the visible dangling cabling suggests that making things so compact may also be aggravating the situation.
Do you really believe that an iFi Nano iDSD DAC , as good as it may be with it's battery supply, is going to perform at it's best from a computer with way higher than average RF/EMI spewing out of it ? There is a whole industry devoted to reducing this kind of rubbish from computers where the same signs are far less obvious, but nevertheless degrade SQ.

The aftermarket USB cable and USB accessory card/device industry !

Unrelated. The grounding issue has nothing to do with how neat the cabling is inside his PC case, or how expensive his cables are.

 

Spending several hundred dollars on fancy cables may indeed reduce the noise he is hearing from the PC.

Fixing the grounding issue should eliminate it.

 

Unless you have cables that don't pass a minimum standard, swapping out cables should not impact your audio performance.

If they do, it's an indicator of a larger problem elsewhere that needs to be addressed.

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Eloise

A blinkered point of view perhaps ? (grin)

Do you really believe that an iFi Nano iDSD DAC , as good as it may be with it's battery supply, is going to perform at it's best from a computer with way higher than average RF/EMI spewing out of it ? There is a whole industry devoted to reducing this kind of rubbish from computers where the same signs are far less obvious, but nevertheless degrade SQ.

The aftermarket USB cable and USB accessory card/device industry !

 

Alex

Yawn Alex ... its not a blinkered point of view ...

 

Just everyone is assuming the biggest problem this user has is with his computer, perhaps the bigger problem is at the other end of the USB cable... Maybe a £500 USB card or rebuilding the PC with a different PSU will fix the problem of noise with a £150 DAC, but if a £170 DAC fixes the problem I know which solution I would go with...

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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If the head phones work fine, surely it has to be a problem with the amps or speakers, or the cables between rPAC and amps or amps and speakers (or an EMI/RF issue with those cables)? Otherwise, why would the head phones sound fine?

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If the head phones work fine, surely it has to be a problem with the amps or speakers, or the cables between rPAC and amps or amps and speakers (or an EMI/RF issue with those cables)? Otherwise, why would the head phones sound fine?

 

Hmm. I was confused about this too! I hope someone can shed some light on this.

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Hmm. I was confused about this too! I hope someone can shed some light on this.

 

I had a very similar problem. I had my bel Canto uLInk connected ( from the USB output of my squeezebox touch) digitally to my TACT S2150 Digital Integrated Amp. It worked fine. I then tried to connect my laptop usb output to the uLink. So much noise in the speakers. The USB cables was a cheap one. I then changed it to a Belkin Gold problem gone. And now I have iUSB and better cables (Wireworld Ultraviolet etc) and I can play from any laptops without any issues.

(It was very strange with the noise propagating even through digital connections)

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Unrelated. The grounding issue has nothing to do with how neat the cabling is inside his PC case, or how expensive his cables are.

A nice bit of selective quoting on your part. I first mentioned fixing the earth integrity in that reply.

Quite a few members will tell you that the type and length of SATA cables etc. also affects results.

Even internal fan leads can radiate RF/EMI when powered via onboard PWM.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Yawn Alex ... its not a blinkered point of view ...

 

Just everyone is assuming the biggest problem this user has is with his computer, perhaps the bigger problem is at the other end of the USB cable... Maybe a £500 USB card or rebuilding the PC with a different PSU will fix the problem of noise with a £150 DAC, but if a £170 DAC fixes the problem I know which solution I would go with...

 

Eloise

 

Yawn.

Eloise

Running a iFi Nano iDSD DAC on battery may very well help. However, if he finds using battery power inconvenient and opts to run it off USB power, there is a very good chance he will be back to square one again.

 

Alex

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Yawn.

Eloise

Running a iFi Nano iDSD DAC on battery may very well help. However, if he finds using battery power inconvenient and opts to run it off USB power, there is a very good chance he will be back to square one again.

Alex are you deliberately trying to p*55 me off!!!

 

Everyone is saying the problem MUST be with the computer. Take a step back and realise that if there is the same issue with two different computers the problem may be with the DAC! The iFi Nano iDSD was simply a suggestion because of it being a similar price to the Arcam rPAC.

 

Unless you have something helpful or KNOW his DAC is okay because it's worked perfectly with another computer; is there really any need to reply!!

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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A nice bit of selective quoting on your part. I first mentioned fixing the earth integrity in that reply.

Quite a few members will tell you that the type and length of SATA cables etc. also affects results.

Even internal fan leads can radiate RF/EMI when powered via onboard PWM.

Yes, but none of that should interfere with the digital signal between the computer and the DAC.

The interference being heard by JFraser is analog interference being transmitted along the ground connection.

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Eloise

IIRC, he said it wasn't as bad with the other computer.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Eloise

IIRC, he said it wasn't as bad with the other computer.

 

So I just connected the rPAC and Speakers to my laptop and the same noise was present (although it was definitely a bit quieter). Furthermore, I connected the VXT6s directly to the rPAC (taking the 10s subwoofer out of the equation) and the noise was a little quieter, but again, still there. What does these things mean? Does this change things at all? The noise is most certainly linked to my processor/computer. Every time I move the mouse, scroll or click on anything it makes sounds. I'm stumped...I'm beginning to think the rPAC is problematic...

That was the relevant response Alex... Doesn't really sound like it worked properly with the laptop either!

 

Anyway no more to say so long as you stop accusing me of being blinkered just for suggesting something else may be a problem!

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

Link to comment
Yes, but none of that should interfere with the digital signal between the computer and the DAC.

 

In theory, yes. In the real world, NO ! John Swenson has previously written about having seen.RF/EMI going along for the ride with the binary information.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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Can anyone please tell me why, if there is a problem with the computer or DAC, everything is fine through head phones? Do I exist in a parallel universe?

You're right... If there's a problem with computer and/or DAC then the headphone should be affected unless its a earth loop issue (which wouldn't affect the headphones as they are not separately connected to the mains.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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