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.... as usual ... 

 

... it is Java's fault or it is Minimserver's fault or it is Euphony's fault. Asset, who knows? maybe Rygel? but who chose Rygel?

...  come on!

52 minutes ago, Miska said:

Gapless not working with UPnP is not an "issue", it is just something that sometimes does and sometimes doesn't work on UPnP. It is optional extra with UPnP anyway.

...  This is truly the joke of the century!

Stefano

 

My audio system

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20 hours ago, Miska said:

I actually now have two separate locations, 15 km apart, both with >100 Mbps fiber internet, now I need to set up VPN to be able to access also between the locations.

That's easy to do especially if you have static IPs, with dynamic can also be done, and I know you are aware of all that, is it the same provider so you'll stay on-network?

 

Would be interesting to see multicast routed over it, I think there is a way for a layer 2 VPN, never done it myself but will look into it.

 

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2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

UPnP is the most non-standard standard. It's a soup sandwich. I've had some really strange issues with UPnP over the years, especially when it comes to using hardware endpoints. Outputting from something like a River UPnP server to a JRiver UPnP renderer works best, but still isn't foolproof. 

Well ... you are talking about UPNP in general, and I know that some issues can occur, for example if you have to go through too many hops, and a single switch is one hop.

But the issue I was discussing is GAPLESS, and once upnp works as expected gapless must work too, it cannot be considered as an optional, extra, maybe, ultra gadget.

The audio industry (for streamers of course) is mostly based on upnp and gapless functionality, and the lacking of gapless is everywhere considered a big minus.

Think about Lumïn and Auralic just to mention two .... they do rely on upnp and gapless and their value/appeal should be less then 0 if upnp and gapless weren’t reliable.

Stefano

 

My audio system

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13 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

Think about Lumïn and Auralic just to mention two .... they do rely on upnp and gapless and their value/appeal should be less then 0 if upnp and gapless weren’t reliable.

 

Lumin and Auralic use OpenHome when I remember right. I had an Aries Femto many years ago and added BubbleUPnP to my Minimserver at that time.

Euphony (NUC7DNKE: Roon or Stylus) --> Euphony EP (NUC7CJYH: Roon Bridge or NAA or StylusEP) --> Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 --> Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro (MQA) (I2S) -->

Euphony (NUC7DNKE: Roon) --> WS 2019 Core (i7-8700: HQPlayer, JPLAY Femto, Roon Bridge, MinorityClean) / Matrix Audio Element H --> Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro (MQA) (USB) --> B & M Prime 6

Synology DS 112+ (LMS) --> pi3B+/HifiBerry Digi + Pro (PiCorePlayer) --> Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro (MQA) (SPDIF) -->  

bedroom: pi3/DigiOne (RoPieee) --> S.M.S.L M500 --> KRK Rokit 5 or AKG 712 Pro

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34 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

OpenHome is UPNP with Linn extension .... gapless is standard in upnp ... check SetNextAVTransport ...

 

All I wanted to say was that Auralic and Lumin use OpenHome instead of just UPnP. You may check this and ask them why.

Euphony (NUC7DNKE: Roon or Stylus) --> Euphony EP (NUC7CJYH: Roon Bridge or NAA or StylusEP) --> Matrix Audio X-SPDIF 2 --> Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro (MQA) (I2S) -->

Euphony (NUC7DNKE: Roon) --> WS 2019 Core (i7-8700: HQPlayer, JPLAY Femto, Roon Bridge, MinorityClean) / Matrix Audio Element H --> Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro (MQA) (USB) --> B & M Prime 6

Synology DS 112+ (LMS) --> pi3B+/HifiBerry Digi + Pro (PiCorePlayer) --> Matrix Audio X-Sabre Pro (MQA) (SPDIF) -->  

bedroom: pi3/DigiOne (RoPieee) --> S.M.S.L M500 --> KRK Rokit 5 or AKG 712 Pro

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23 hours ago, luisma said:

That's easy to do especially if you have static IPs, with dynamic can also be done, and I know you are aware of all that, is it the same provider so you'll stay on-network?

 

No, two different ISPs. But it shouldn't be an issue...

 

23 hours ago, luisma said:

Would be interesting to see multicast routed over it, I think there is a way for a layer 2 VPN, never done it myself but will look into it.

 

At least OpenVPN supports TAP adapters to deal with Ethernet packet level traffic. Multicast should work over such... Have to see.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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8 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

OpenHome is UPNP with Linn extension .... gapless is standard in upnp ... check SetNextAVTransport ...

 

SetNextAVTransport is optional extra feature in UPnP AV specifications. For example most hardware streamers don't support it. And at other times it is just flaky.

 

If HQPlayer UPnP feature doesn't work for you the way you want, just don't use HQPlayer but use something else instead where everything works the way you want.

 

But in your case the problem seems to be that it takes way more than 500 ms for your server to provide 10 seconds worth of audio for HQPlayer when HQPlayer requests it. Even more than 1 second. Since you seem to be doing transcoding, does the server pre-transcode the data, or does it begin transcoding only after getting first GET request for the URI? If it's dumb, it will begin transcoding only once the initial request comes in and transcode the entire file before any audio leaves the server. This would explain your problems for example.

 

Quote

But the issue I was discussing is GAPLESS, and once upnp works as expected gapless must work too, it cannot be considered as an optional, extra, maybe, ultra gadget.

 

Wrong.

 

Quote

The audio industry (for streamers of course) is mostly based on upnp and gapless functionality

 

Wrong again, most of the time it doesn't work.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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9 hours ago, stefano_mbp said:

OpenHome is UPNP with Linn extension .... gapless is standard in upnp ... check SetNextAVTransport ...

 

With OpenHome, SetNextAVTransport is not used or needed, because the Renderer is holding the entire playlist instead of having just one URI.

 

If you want, you can implement OpenHome (or UPnP Renderer in general), over HQPlayer Control API. Since you are doing coding anyway, you have all the freedom to make UPnP things work the way you like with HQPlayer!

 

But on the other hand, for better performance it is better to skip UPnP altogether and stick to HQPlayer Control API instead.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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32 minutes ago, Miska said:

But in your case the problem seems to be that it takes way more than 500 ms for your server to provide 10 seconds worth of audio for HQPlayer when HQPlayer requests it. Even more than 1 second. Since you seem to be doing transcoding, does the server pre-transcode the data, or does it begin transcoding only after getting first GET request for the URI? If it's dumb, it will begin transcoding only once the initial request comes in and transcode the entire file before any audio leaves the server. This would explain your problems for example

.... the issue occurs :

  • with and WITHOUT transcoding (then transcoding is a false problem) ...
  • using Minimserver and Asset (then Java is a false problem)
  • using several control points OpenHome (Lumïn, Kazoo, Linn) and not OpenHome based (MConnect) ...

... but it seems obvious where the issue is ... “extra optional upnp feature” missing

 

Stefano

 

My audio system

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5 minutes ago, stefano_mbp said:

.... the issue occurs :

  • with and WITHOUT transcoding (then transcoding is a false problem) ...
  • using Minimserver and Asset (then Java is a false problem)
  • using several control points OpenHome (Lumïn, Kazoo, Linn) and not OpenHome based (MConnect) ...

... but it seems obvious where the issue is ... “extra optional upnp feature” missing

 

 

No, the issue seems to be that your server or network is too slow providing HQPlayer the data when asked. As long as this is the case, no matter what kind of UPnP stuff there is or is not. If HQPlayer runs out of currently playing audio before the next one is available, you will have a gap.

 

P.S. HQPlayer doesn't support OpenHome, so none of the OpenHome stuff matters.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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Gapless playback is working for me in Euphony now thanks to Jussi and Željko.

Euphony Summus Server w/ a Kecces P-8A Ultra Linear PS (used for my Roon Core). Custom HDPlex Server using a Gigabyte Designare Z390 MB, i9 9900K Processor, Apacer Mem and Intel Optane Drive for Euphony. HDPlex 300 watt LPS and H5 Case. Bryston BP-26 Preamp, Bryston BDA-3 Dac, Bryston 4B Cubed Amp, Sonore Sig Rendu SE, Sonore Optical Module Deluxe w/ a Uptone LPS-1.2. Uptone Audio EtherRegen w/ a Your Final System LPS. After Dark Queen Square Wave Clock w/ a Uptone LPS-1.2. Clearaudio Champion TT Level 1, JLTI Phono Stage, Totem Acoustic Mani-2 Sigs. Silversmith Audio XLR Cables to Amp, Audio Magic Interconnect, Speaker and Power Cables, Lush 2 USB & Monoprice Cat 8 cables.

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I have a question about convolution and the clipping (i.e., 'limited') indicator. 

 

I've using REW and RePhase to generate impulses that are essentially only gain reductions to flatten the response between 30-200Hz and then phase adjustments above 200Hz.

 

Oddly, I've got to run HQPlayer's gain at -10dB in order to avoid hitting the limiter.  This surprises me because I have essentially no boosts and the headroom indicator was 0dB.  So, why am I hitting the limiter?  Could the phase adjustments trip that?

Yamaha A-S3200 | B&W | REL | Holo Audio | Singxer SU-6

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47 minutes ago, Iceaero said:

I have a question about convolution and the clipping (i.e., 'limited') indicator. 

 

I've using REW and RePhase to generate impulses that are essentially only gain reductions to flatten the response between 30-200Hz and then phase adjustments above 200Hz.

 

Oddly, I've got to run HQPlayer's gain at -10dB in order to avoid hitting the limiter.  This surprises me because I have essentially no boosts and the headroom indicator was 0dB.  So, why am I hitting the limiter?  Could the phase adjustments trip that?

Any DSP outside of the HQP engine has been reported to cause this behavior.

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On 3/7/2021 at 10:09 PM, Iceaero said:

I have a question about convolution and the clipping (i.e., 'limited') indicator. 

 

I've using REW and RePhase to generate impulses that are essentially only gain reductions to flatten the response between 30-200Hz and then phase adjustments above 200Hz.

 

Oddly, I've got to run HQPlayer's gain at -10dB in order to avoid hitting the limiter.  This surprises me because I have essentially no boosts and the headroom indicator was 0dB.  So, why am I hitting the limiter?  Could the phase adjustments trip that?

 

You might want to check, when generating your convolution impulses inside rePhase, the gain which is displayed in the message box just under the button "Generate". The gain should be close to zero or below. 

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