HQ Player

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, ambre said:

Hi Jussy,

Does the Arm64  release 4.8.1. also work when  I have updated to Big Sur instead Catallna on my Intel Mac Mini 2018 with I7 (6 cores) ? Does it detect automatically which OS is available resp. needed? Or do I need always the Intel version? 

 

For Intel CPUs you need x64 version. For Apple's new Mx silicon you need arm64 version.

 

OS versions >= 10.14 should work.

 

9 minutes ago, ambre said:

Ps. I can run now without any problems DSD5EC, ASD5EC and even  ASDM7EC instead ASDM7 what I normally do.

Only the fan speed increases from 1700 (standard ) up to approx. 3500 <-> 3700 rpm.

When I enable Multi DSP stuttering starts already with DSD5EC. With the option grayed it works?😃

 

Making "Multicore DSP" checked on Intel CPUs will very likely result in stuttering with all Intel CPUs.

 

[ambre]

3 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

For Intel CPUs you need x64 version. For Apple's new Mx silicon you need arm64 version.

 

OS versions >= 10.14 should work.

 

 

Making "Multicore DSP" checked on Intel CPUs will very likely result in stuttering with all Intel CPUs.

 

Thanks for quick reply.

 

The latest OS 10.16 called Big Sur works for both platforms isn't?  It works for Intel and Apple M1 processors.

 

But your native build  HQPlayer 4.8.0  for Apple's new ARM-based Mac CPU works only for Apple M1 .... gives some confusing imo due to the fact that its OS is the same.

Regards, Andreas

 

 

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, ambre said:

The latest OS 10.16 called Big Sur works for both platforms isn't?  It works for Intel and Apple M1 processors.

 

Yes....

 

7 minutes ago, ambre said:

But your native build  HQPlayer 4.8.0  for Apple's new ARM-based Mac CPU works only for Apple M1 .... gives some confusing imo due to the fact that its OS is the same.

 

OS is branded the same, but CPU architecture is different. So the two run completely different native code. This is not any different from Linux on x64 vs ARM for example. OS may look and be called the same, but the code CPU runs is totally different.

 

For some applications you may find "universal binaries", but these are just two separate binaries bundled into one. I don't see point in distributing 2x bigger HQPlayer binary where the other half would be always unused, instead of distributing two smaller separate binaries.

 

There are two separate native builds of HQPlayer Desktop 4.8.0 (and latest 4.8.1) for both x64 (Intel) and arm64 (ARM/Apple). And will be for foreseeable future, until Intel CPUs become obsolete on Macs.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

Now in HQPlayer Desktop 4.8.1 release, you can leave "Multicore DSP" set to "auto config" (grayed) and it will behave in optimal way on Apple's M1 silicon.

Hello, Jussi. What do you recommend for the Adaptive output rate and CUDA offload options in the newest 4.8.1 version? Is it better to set them grayed too? Thank you!

[jamesg11]

22 hours ago, k6davis said:

 

 

So the M1 can upsample PCM 192k all the way up to DSD256 ASDM7EC x48 (12.288M) !!

 

Very impressive. If this is the performance we're getting from their first generation, budget, battery-sipping laptop chip, I can't wait to see what Apple has in store for 2021.

 

 

So, where we up to then re the new-current macmini M1 - what has been established that it can’t do with asdm7ec & 256?

 

Those of us with the rme ... maybe this is sufficient.

[k6davis]

49 minutes ago, jamesg11 said:

So, where we up to then re the new-current macmini M1 - what has been established that it can’t do with asdm7ec & 256?

 

Those of us with the rme ... maybe this is sufficient.

 

I didn't mean to suggest that there's anything wrong with the M1. I'm very impressed with it. From the initial reports here, it does seem to be a capable DSD256 EC chip.

 

What I'm saying is that I have hope that the forthcoming, more powerful "M" chips from Apple could potentially break the DSD512 EC barrier. I'm not betting on it, but I am encouraged by what I see in the M1.

[ambre]

10 hours ago, Miska said:

 

There are two separate native builds of HQPlayer Desktop 4.8.0 (and latest 4.8.1) for both x64 (Intel) and arm64 (ARM/Apple). And will be for foreseeable future, until Intel CPUs become obsolete on Macs. That will last for at least 20 years😊

 

Jussi,

Thanks for your answer. 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, Nebuchadnezzar said:

Hello, Jussi. What do you recommend for the Adaptive output rate and CUDA offload options in the newest 4.8.1 version? Is it better to set them grayed too? Thank you!

 

Grayed adaptive output rate keeps the asked output rate unless filter capabilities demand change. So it adapts the output rate only when necessary.

 

Grayed CUDA offload enables offloading only for convolution, but not for upsampling filters. Useful when you have a heavy convolution case and also have spare CPU cores for running filters.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, ambre said:

Jussi,

Thanks for your answer. 

 

:D

 

It depends how quickly Apple will drop support for Intel CPUs in new macOS releases. Which in turn depends on how quickly they drop producing new Macs with Intel CPUs.

 

HQPlayer generally supports latest and latest minus one versions of macOS. Many times also latest minus two at least for some time. Like at the moment 10.14 (Mojave) is minimum required macOS version.

 

[Account Closed]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Grayed adaptive output rate keeps the asked output rate unless filter capabilities demand change. So it adapts the output rate only when necessary.

 

Grayed CUDA offload enables offloading only for convolution, but not for upsampling filters. Useful when you have a heavy convolution case and also have spare CPU cores for running filters.

 

If adaptive is grayed it may force rate family conversion which is reported above to not work with the M1 as per @computeraudiophile.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, bobflood said:

If adaptive is grayed it may force rate family conversion which is reported above to not work with the M1 as per @computeraudiophile.

 

It depends on your filter choice. With most DACs you'll need rate family conversion to play 48/96/192k content to 44.1 x256 DSD.

 

It works with all poly-sinc-*-2s filters for me. It doesn't work with ext2 because it uses twice higher intermediate rate. But this is pretty easy to handle since there are the 1x and Nx filter selections...

 

[AudioDoctor]

What is the best way to set HQPlayer to play a DSD file to a non DSD DAC?

[Miska]

4 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

What is the best way to set HQPlayer to play a DSD file to a non DSD DAC?

 

Under DSD source settings in HQPlayer, set PCM conversion to ext2 or sinc-S or similar. Noise filter standard or low. Then just play out to maximum PCM rate the DAC supports.

 

[AudioDoctor]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Under DSD source settings in HQPlayer, set PCM conversion to ext2 or sinc-S or similar. Noise filter standard or low. Then just play out to maximum PCM rate the DAC supports.

 

 

Thanks, streaming to my Yggy now!

[dmccombs]

On 12/13/2020 at 3:11 PM, Miska said:

 

For Intel CPUs you need x64 version. For Apple's new Mx silicon you need arm64 version.

 

OS versions >= 10.14 should work.

 

 

Making "Multicore DSP" checked on Intel CPUs will very likely result in stuttering with all Intel CPUs.

 

So with an Intel CPU would you leave the Mulitcore Box blank/unchecked, or Grey?

[Account Closed]

1 hour ago, dmccombs said:

So with an Intel CPU would you leave the Mulitcore Box blank/unchecked, or Grey?

Grey

[Miska]

1 hour ago, dmccombs said:

So with an Intel CPU would you leave the Mulitcore Box blank/unchecked, or Grey?

 

Yes, if it is blank, then there is not much work split between CPU cores. This setting is probably best for single or dual core CPUs.

 

Grey makes HQPlayer auto-configure how the work split is done based on number of available cores, etc. This auto-configuration has been now tuned for the Apple's M1 silicon (arm64 architecture) as well. It will behave same on other arm64 platforms as well, like RasPi4 when I make next HQPlayer Embedded release. But those quad-core configurations won't achieve as much as M1's 4 + 4 configuration.

 

Checked just blindly enables all possible parallelizations. However, some of these seem to have big performance hit on Intel CPUs. The reasons are not so clear, but the effect is obvious.

 

[bibo01]

@Miskaand other users,

Do you have any experience or recommendations for nuc motherboards, like NUC10i7FNB, using i7-10710U cpu? What are the limits of such systems? Is it possible 44.1->DSD128 with any modulator? Possible ->DSD256?

Thanks  

[k6davis]

3 hours ago, bibo01 said:

Do you have any experience or recommendations for nuc motherboards

 

I tried it a couple of years ago with an i7 NUC. I can't remember which model it was. That older chip was strong enough to do DSD128 without much of an issue but at DSD256, the fan noise was unacceptable. 

 

It was unfortunate, because the quality of sound was excellent (despite the computer not being in any way optimized for audio) and aesthetically, it looked great next to my NUC NAA.

 

The results may be better with the current models. DSD256 (non EC) may be workable now, with some of the filter options.

[Miska]

6 hours ago, bibo01 said:

@Miskaand other users,

Do you have any experience or recommendations for nuc motherboards, like NUC10i7FNB, using i7-10710U cpu? What are the limits of such systems? Is it possible 44.1->DSD128 with any modulator? Possible ->DSD256?  

 

I have not tried recently, but I would stay away from U (ultramobile) CPUs and stick with desktop models. If you want a smaller motherboard, you could get a Mini-ITX one.

 

Something like this for example:

http://asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z490 Phantom Gaming-ITXTB3/index.asp

http://asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z490M-ITXac/index.asp

 

Or this:

http://asrock.com/mb/Intel/X299E-ITXac/index.asp

 

[Luca72c]

3 hours ago, Miska said:

 

I have not tried recently, but I would stay away from U (ultramobile) CPUs and stick with desktop models. If you want a smaller motherboard, you could get a Mini-ITX one.

 

Something like this for example:

http://asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z490 Phantom Gaming-ITXTB3/index.asp

http://asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z490M-ITXac/index.asp

 

Or this:

http://asrock.com/mb/Intel/X299E-ITXac/index.asp

 

 

I agree: by using Mini-ITX motherboards and cases, you can build an audio-dedicated small server PC that is almost as powerful as a normal desktop server, using same RAM modules and SDDs, light and portable, that you can complement with a small 8/10/12" flat monitor. If you need more power, by using slightly bigger cases you can add a CUDA board, a small SFF/AFX/ATX PSU or even a basic liquid AIO cooler. Much better and more flexible than Intel NUCs.

My current Mini-ITX server is a 22x25x7 cm Intel i5 PC that i can easily move around my home. It's very quiet and discrete and very good sounding (thanks to linear + PicoPSU power supply and Gigabyte special USB technology for DACs).

[stefano_mbp]

32 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

My current Mini-ITX server is a 22x25x7 cm Intel i5 PC

... interesting  ... even if I don’t understand why an HQPlayer server (hqplayerd) should be moved around ... are you using HQP Desktop or Embedded version?

I’m trying to learn as much as possible and what is still quite obscure to me is why a Nuc10i7 (or Nuc10i5) shouldn’t be used: as I could understand clock frequency is the most important parameter and these cpu are 4.7GHz / 4.2GHz.

In these days I’m trying hqplayerd (Embedded) on a Nuc8i3/Ubuntu I have on hand ... 3.6GHz and I can play up to 4xDSD/ADSM7/poly-sinc-ext2 or closed form using a rpi4 4GB/RoPieee XL as NAA.

It is very close to its limits (70% cpu and 80° temp)  but it works w/o click or pops, therefore I was thinking about a Nuc10i7 or Nuc10i5 with a fanless case like HdPlex H1 V3 w/ Nuc kit, with a good passive cooling and around +15/25% clock performance it should be quite safe.

A new i5-10400 (gen. 10) is around 4.3GHz, quite similar to Nuc10i5 ... is there any other important parameter that escapes me?

Please @Miska help me to better understand ...

 

 

 

[Luca72c]

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

... interesting  ... even if I don’t understand why an HQPlayer server (hqplayerd) should be moved around ... are you using HQP Desktop or Embedded version?

 

I'm using HQP Desktop, but for many reasons i had to move my entire system more often than i hoped, recently 😅

Anyway, to anticipate Jussi's answer, surely frequency is an important factor, but not sufficient to correctly outline a cpu's actual performance. For example, Apple M1 is DSD256 EC capable even if running just 3,2 ghz frequency, while some 4 ghz cpus are not equally capable. AMD Ryzen 7 5800x at 4,8/4,9 ghz seems to be actually more performing, even in single thread tasks, than 5,2/5,3 ghz Intel Comet Lake cpus. And so on.

You have to take into account many factors, including IPC, cache size and management, cores architecture, memory bandwidth, power and heat management (that affects how long a processor can run turbo frequencies), etc...

Usually notebook processors (including Intel U cpus) are modified versions to allow lower power consumption and lower heat generation, by scaling down their pure computing performance compared to desktop processors.

Their specialty is allowing very low system dimensions and they do that very well, where needed. But where that is not needed, obviously going bigger permits to avoid many limitations (including performance ones) of small, portable devices. Mini ITX seats in an intermediate position, by allowing the use of normal desktop processors and majority of desktop components, so also very versatile to upgrade in time, but still making it possible to stay in relatively small sizes.

But if small size is not needed, full size desktop PCs usually are the best performing and most versatile solution.

[stefano_mbp]

8 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

You have to take into account many factors, including IPC, cache size and management, cores architecture, memory bandwidth, power and heat management (that affects how long a processor can run turbo frequencies), etc...

... this is why every time I try to go deeper in this project I feel lost ... not being a computer engineer you should agree that this is a very complicated task ...

thank you!

[Miska]

1 hour ago, stefano_mbp said:

... interesting  ... even if I don’t understand why an HQPlayer server (hqplayerd) should be moved around ... are you using HQP Desktop or Embedded version?

I’m trying to learn as much as possible and what is still quite obscure to me is why a Nuc10i7 (or Nuc10i5) shouldn’t be used: as I could understand clock frequency is the most important parameter and these cpu are 4.7GHz / 4.2GHz.

In these days I’m trying hqplayerd (Embedded) on a Nuc8i3/Ubuntu I have on hand ... 3.6GHz and I can play up to 4xDSD/ADSM7/poly-sinc-ext2 or closed form using a rpi4 4GB/RoPieee XL as NAA.

It is very close to its limits (70% cpu and 80° temp)  but it works w/o click or pops, therefore I was thinking about a Nuc10i7 or Nuc10i5 with a fanless case like HdPlex H1 V3 w/ Nuc kit, with a good passive cooling and around +15/25% clock performance it should be quite safe.

A new i5-10400 (gen. 10) is around 4.3GHz, quite similar to Nuc10i5 ... is there any other important parameter that escapes me?

Please @Miska help me to better understand ...

 

Have you tried using ASDM7EC or ASDM5EC modulator?

 

NUC10i5 is 4 cores with 1.6 GHz base clock and NUC10i7 is 6 cores with 1.1 GHz base clock. How much turbo clock can be gained for these kind of loads then depends also on the configured TDP figure.

 

If the thermal power limits don't become limiting factor and it can actually run two cores at high enough clocks, it could work.