HQ Player

[AudioDoctor]

I was just considering something re: HQPlayer licensing. I now own two licenses, one for the Desktop variant, and one for the Embedded variant. At which point in their life cycle will these licenses need to be renewed to continue forward with the program and updates?

[Bob Stern]

On 11/20/2020 at 8:37 AM, The Computer Audiophile said:

The issues I found with Rogue Amoeba apps are such that you wouldn't hear anything out of the ordinary. It's a tiny drift that not even the developers could fix. Who knows, by now maybe it's fixed. I haven't tested it in several years. 

 

Rogue Amoeba Loopback's current version either fixed the clock drift problem or reduced it to rarely occurring.  The RME ADI-2 DAC has a built-in bit perfect test based on a very short test file.  It verified the stream as bit perfect when I used either Audacity or Audirvana to play the test file in a repeating loop, outputting to the Loopback virtual device while HQPlayer was streaming to the RME DAC using Loopback as its input.  In other words:

Audacity/Audirvana > Loopback > HQP > RME DAC

 

(fwiw, the DAC showed bit perfect transmission only for 16 or 24 bit data, not 32 bit data, even when Audacity or Audirvana (with Integer mode on or off) was playing the test file directly to the DAC without Loopback or HQP intervening.  Only HQP playing the test file directly to the DAC passed the 32 bit test.  RME's developer said HQP was the only Mac audio player he knew of that passed the 32 bit test.  He found Audirvana failed the 32 bit test even in Direct Mode, which I did not use because I didn’t hack MacOS to install the old kernel extension that enables direct mode.)

[Csaba]

I am not very familiar how the number of CPU threads is influencing HQPlayer's performance, so my question is the following:

 

Which CPU is more preferable when using HQPlayer?

i7-9700T (8 cores, 8 threads, 4,3 Ghz max.)

i7-8700T (6 cores, 12 threads, 4,0 Ghz max.)

 

Thank you for your advice in advance.

[Luca72c]

7 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Yeah, sure, I don't have doubts about that. But not the two-sided thing a loop-back adapter drivers are, where there is Windows audio API at both sides? JRiver has the Windows audio API only facing to the other application?

 

 

Only WDM driver towards the app would be needed, as Hqplayer could stream via network to NAA

[Joerg D]

Hello Miska
I have a 2 PC system.
My IMAC ( 3,5 GHZ, IntelCore I5 , 8 GB Ram , AMD Radeon 2 GB )
makes the Roon Core and Hqplayer desktop.
The music goes via LAN to the Acousence Streamer and from there via LWL( Optic)  to the Acousence DAC . The DAC has a Delta Sigmar converter, 24 Bit 196 khz, no DSD.
Which setting in Hqplayer can you recommend?
Can I use Cuda?
My system is now very high resolution, I would like a little more warmth.

Many greetings
Joerg
 

Hqplayer24.11.20.pdf

[Miska]

7 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Hi @MiskaSpeaking of sound cards, since you've now done a fantastic job with making HQP Embedded device USB Class Audio device with specific hardware + USB cable, does this mean you now have a path to making HQPe a sound card but completely over the network, no USB cable or other specific hardware required?

 

For macOS , for example? I imagine Windows is harder

 

If I understand your question correctly, it has been working over network for quite some time. Since NAA supports input side as well nowadays. So you can boot up suitable NAA (UPBoard for example) with USB input capabilities and use it over network from macOS or Windows (with HQPlayer Desktop).

 

Of course given the HQPlayer Embedded capabilities, you could build all kinds of devices out from it.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Luca72c said:

Only WDM driver towards the app would be needed, as Hqplayer could stream via network to NAA

 

Point was that some of the limitations come from the fact that those loopback drivers are two-sided. They have two WDM devices, one at the input side and another one at the output side. And two applications talking to these two separate sides.

 

Given that HQPlayer is a multi-platform application, it is not enough to create just WDM driver, there would also need to be CoreAudio and ALSA driver.

 

And things work already quite nice through S/PDIF / AES and USB routes.

 

[asdf1000]

24 minutes ago, Miska said:

If I understand your question correctly, it has been working over network for quite some time. Since NAA supports input side as well nowadays. So you can boot up suitable NAA (UPBoard for example) with USB input capabilities and use it over network from macOS or Windows (with HQPlayer Desktop).

 

Noted, I have this working now.

 

What I mean is , as a next step can you make macOS see HQPe Server as a sound card, playing direct over the network - but without USB cable + UPBoard in the middle.

 

Is that something you could do next, or is that too difficult to do?

[Csaba]

2 hours ago, Csaba said:

I am not very familiar how the number of CPU threads is influencing HQPlayer's performance, so my question is the following:

 

Which CPU is more preferable when using HQPlayer?

i7-9700T (8 cores, 8 threads, 4,3 Ghz max.)

i7-8700T (6 cores, 12 threads, 4,0 Ghz max.)

 

Thank you for your advice in advance.

 

Hi @Miska

 

Could you please advice on my question?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Luca72c]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Point was that some of the limitations come from the fact that those loopback drivers are two-sided. They have two WDM devices, one at the input side and another one at the output side. And two applications talking to these two separate sides.

 

Given that HQPlayer is a multi-platform application, it is not enough to create just WDM driver, there would also need to be CoreAudio and ALSA driver.

 

And things work already quite nice through S/PDIF / AES and USB routes.

 

 

As long as Linux platform owners have Embedded to choose, i don't see the need for an ALSA device driver to make Desktop input easier for them.

HQPlayer is a multi-platform family of applications, but only on Linux platform this family offers the ability to input a music stream by another app with variable frequency without the need of additional hardware. This is the asymmetry to be solved IMHO, not as a single-application asymmetry but as a software family asymmetry among different platforms: each user on each platform should be able to have every functionality available on his platform, using a specific HQPlayer application or the other is not a problem i think, as long as licenses cost is the same.

I can believe S/PDIF, AES and USB routes work nice, but you need additional hardware + complications to use them on Windows and Mac, not so cheap hardware too. On Linux you don't. So this is a big difference between platforms. Please try to understand that we are not all audio apps developers who can buy many hundreds (or thousands) USD of audio/computer gears every month (or week) as justifiable developing instruments, or build up ever growing audio systems and multiple NAA devices for every new need. Many of us are already in difficulty buying a new HQPlayer license, as you see... We would like to have a software product that gives us functionalities that work in software without additional expenses and complications, where this is possible.

So i think solutions could be: porting of Embedded on Windows or Mac, or implementing HQP Desktop as an audio device for apps on Windows and Mac, or making HQP Desktop DLNA-compatible on input. Each of them could be feasible, AFAIK. Maybe others too.

 

[Hensema]

4 hours ago, Joerg D said:

My system is now very high resolution, I would like a little more warmth.

MQA-MP is in my opinion the warmest filter

[Miska]

3 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

What I mean is , as a next step can you make macOS see HQPe Server as a sound card, playing direct over the network - but without USB cable + UPBoard in the middle.

 

Is that something you could do next, or is that too difficult to do?

 

That is specifically something I'm not very eager to touch because it means developing CoreAudio driver which in turn is constant battle with new macOS versions. The USB Audio Class driver is maintained by Apple, so it won't break such way.

 

[Miska]

3 hours ago, Csaba said:

Could you please advice on my question?

Thank you in advance.

 

9700T is quite a bit better. Higher clocks and more cores. Cores are the only ones that do real work. Threads are virtual and there to help context switching multiple software processes/threads.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Luca72c said:

So i think solutions could be: porting of Embedded on Windows or Mac, or implementing HQP Desktop as an audio device for apps on Windows and Mac, or making HQP Desktop DLNA-compatible on input. Each of them could be feasible, AFAIK. Maybe others too.

 

More important are the use cases you want to solve, instead of the technical means to achieve it. UPnP for example won't help solving Spotify. By the way HQPlayer Embedded is not DLNA-compatible either.

 

[asdf1000]

38 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

That is specifically something I'm not very eager to touch because it means developing CoreAudio driver which in turn is constant battle with new macOS versions. The USB Audio Class driver is maintained by Apple, so it won't break such way.

 

 

Fair point !

 

[Luca72c]

51 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

More important are the use cases you want to solve, instead of the technical means to achieve it. UPnP for example won't help solving Spotify. By the way HQPlayer Embedded is not DLNA-compatible either.

 

 

Sorry, i meant UPNP, not DLNA. In HQP Embedded page you say : "It can also function as a UPnP AV Renderer".

The functionality i (and many others, as i read in the thread) would like to achieve is reproducing any Windows (and Mac too, i guess) apps audio via HQPlayer, as if it was a filter on output stream or an audio device - obviously doing this without having to use additional hardware, as a software internal process inside the PC, and comfortably (so no manual frequency setting) like you can do streaming via Jriver or a normal audio device. So to allow upsampling and/or DSD conversion with HQPlayer outstanding quality of any PC audio stream.

Is this reasonably feasible? I (probably mistakenly) thought that HQPlayer Desktop input functionality was meant for doing that, isn't it?

Doing something like that on external audio sources would also be good, but obviously additional hardware would not be avoidable for that case...

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Luca72c said:

additional hardware, as a software internal process inside the PC, and comfortably (so no manual frequency setting) like you can do streaming via Jriver or a normal audio device. So to allow upsampling and/or DSD conversion with HQPlayer outstanding quality of any PC audio stream.

 

What would be actual source? If you think you would use it with something like video, I can already tell it won't work.

 

1 hour ago, Luca72c said:

Is this reasonably feasible? I (probably mistakenly) thought that HQPlayer Desktop input functionality was meant for doing that, isn't it?

 

To some extent, and it already works with external hardware. And enough with already existing loopback drivers to be useful for many cases. But primary use case is not from other applications, but from external devices.

 

1 hour ago, Luca72c said:

Doing something like that on external audio sources would also be good, but obviously additional hardware would not be avoidable for that case...

 

Yes, that already exists and works, be it old school CD-spinner or vinyl rig. One idea was to allow same convolution engine path to be used also those sources, so that you get same room corrections for everything.

 

[Luca72c]

7 hours ago, Miska said:

What would be actual source? If you think you would use it with something like video, I can already tell it won't work.

 

No video, just audio from Tidal, Qobuz, Youtube audio streams, Kodi, internet radios and similar things

 

7 hours ago, Miska said:

But primary use case is not from other applications, but from external devices

 

Ok, i hadn't realized that. But surely upsampling/converting audio streams from apps would be a logical and useful functionality, needing just a bit of an improvement...

Using loopback drivers, in facts, it roughly works, but not in a stable way in every system and always needing manual frequency adjustments. I'm sure that can be fixed, but i can only guess how to do it. If you can, an improvement/stabilisation would be much appreciated

[Miska]

13 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

No video, just audio from Tidal, Qobuz, Youtube audio streams, Kodi, internet radios and similar things

 

Tidal and Qobuz you can already get from Roon. YouTube is pretty much fixed sample rate like Spotify, so rate adjustment with a loopback device is not an issue. For use with Kodi search the forum, it has been discussed before.

 

Internet radios can also be directly streamed with HQPlayer as long as they are lossless like FLAC or WavPack.

 

16 minutes ago, Luca72c said:

Using loopback drivers, in facts, it roughly works, but not in a stable way in every system and always needing manual frequency adjustments.

 

Most of the cases you mention go through WASAPI Shared Mode, meaning through OS rate conversion. So you get fixed rate and don't need rate adjustment.

 

[mirekti]

I'd need some help.

Installed Roon Core on QNAP NAS.
Running Roon Client on Windows 10 machine.
Running HQPlayer on the same Windows 10 machine.

When I play music through HQPlayer only the sound comes through.
Initially I had used localhost in Roon, but realized the IP needs to be used when Roon Core is on another device. When it was set to localhost Roon would say no able to connect to HQPlayer. After I deleted old zone and added new with the IP Roon is able to find HQPlayer, but nothing happens. I get #failed to open input device on HQPlayer.

In the past I used to have Core and HQPlayer on the same Windows machine and it worked fine.
Any hints on what I might be doing wrong, please?
 

HQPlayerLog.txt
 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, mirekti said:

I'd need some help.

Installed Roon Core on QNAP NAS.
Running Roon Client on Windows 10 machine.
Running HQPlayer on the same Windows 10 machine.

When I play music through HQPlayer only the sound comes through.
Initially I had used localhost in Roon, but realized the IP needs to be used when Roon Core is on another device. When it was set to localhost Roon would say no able to connect to HQPlayer. After I deleted old zone and added new with the IP Roon is able to find HQPlayer, but nothing happens. I get #failed to open input device on HQPlayer.

In the past I used to have Core and HQPlayer on the same Windows machine and it worked fine.
Any hints on what I might be doing wrong, please?
 

HQPlayerLog.txt 1.36 kB · 1 download
 

 

Do you have some NAA input? Because HQPlayer is trying to access such. Please check your settings that you have correct output device set and that input is disabled if you don't use it.

 

[mirekti]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

Do you have some NAA input? Because HQPlayer is trying to access such. Please check your settings that you have correct output device set and that input is disabled if you don't use it.

 

EDIT: Ah, it seems the network control ended up disabled after multiple attempts to configure all of this.
It is working fine now!!!

Thanks!!!
 

When I set Input Device Settings to None then nothing happens when I play an album from Roon.
Roon shows it started:


but nothing happens in the track bar either.

 

I am running Roon Core on QNAP NAS and HQPlayer and Roon client on Windows desktop.

[FlashingBlade]

I've just purchased HQPlayer and run it through Roon. I'm looking for some help with finding the optimum settings for my DAC which is a Matrix Audio Sabre Pro as some of the settings are beyond my current technical knowledge. I'll hold my hands up and say I'm still learning having previously just used a 'plug and forget' DAC. 

 

I did try a seperate thread but it was suggested I post here to keep it in one place and maybe get @Miska to help out. 

 

I've attached how I've currently got HQPlayer setup and feel free to pull it apart and suggest what I've got wrong. 

[Joerg D]

On 11/24/2020 at 1:41 PM, Hensema said:

MQA-MP is in my opinion the warmest filter

Thank you for your answer. Which dither suits the MQA-MP best?
 

Joerg

[Luca72c]

21 hours ago, Miska said:

Tidal and Qobuz you can already get from Roon. YouTube is pretty much fixed sample rate like Spotify, so rate adjustment with a loopback device is not an issue. For use with Kodi search the forum, it has been discussed before.

Internet radios can also be directly streamed with HQPlayer as long as they are lossless like FLAC or WavPack.

Most of the cases you mention go through WASAPI Shared Mode, meaning through OS rate conversion. So you get fixed rate and don't need rate adjustment.

 

Sorry to take it this long, i feel uncomfortable having to insist so much, as a customer, to have my (and of many others, who i can't understand where are now) request for a functionality fix to be taken into consideration by a commercial developer. I am sorry to see there is not much of an interest for customers requests here, something i have already seen for many others like - just to say one - support for VST plugins. Sometimes i see attempts from you to demonstrate to customers that their needs are wrong, irrational or simply ignorant, that is absolutely impolite and unfair (this could be done in some extent about ANY need, except breathing, eating and drinking... Are you sure you can evaluate each user needs? ), and that your software is ok as it is. Surely it's a great software that has no competition about sound quality, but this doesn't mean it shouldn't be constantly improved adding useful functionality upon customers requests too, where possible (and the fix i request IS possible, maybe relatively easy too): that should be normal for any commercial product.

 

Anyway, things are not as easy as you say in the post i quoted.

Roon is a commercial software, isn't this clear? You have to pay to use it. You have to pay MUCH. It's a brilliant piece of software, perfect for some needs, but not for my needs. I don't care about smart, good looking interface, infos database and 90% of its functionalities. I'm perfectly comfortable with HQPlayer client. Roon support for HQPlayer is an half step, not allowing to remotely change HQPlayer settings. Its library is a mistery to me, with no strict connection to actual physical directories on disc, i like HQPlayer client organizaed library management much more. So why should i pay (on a 2 years base) more than HQPlayer's lifetime license for a software that i wouldn't use, just to have a functionality that could easily (it's half way done actually) be incorporated into HQPlayer itself? I want to pay for HQPlayer, not for Roon! How much should i pay just to listen to Qobuz streaming via HQPlayer? Qobuz licence + Roon licence + HQPlayer licence... this would mean a lot of money for a single functionality!

About Kodi, i tried Supersonic addon by Geoffrey Armstrong but unfortunately i had no success, many things changed from 2018 and it didn't get updated (for something it simply couldn't). Geoff himself told me that he doesn't support Supersonic anymore. So no HQPlayer support in Kodi.

Internet radio is supported by HQPlayer only in flac format, but the vast majority of internet radios are not flac.

Even playing from youtube or the likes, it's true that frequency is fixed, but as i said current reproduction using loopback audio drivers is not stable, i have to spend many tries each time before getting it to work. Maybe the problem is in those loopback drivers, maybe in my hardware, i don't know, but it surely would be much more stable and easy to use for everyone if the stream was passing via software in a much more direct way like UPNP or Jriver allow, avoiding too many complications.

So we remain still with a difficult to use and uncomfortable functionality, a great idea that only some of us (Linux users and additional hardware users) can really exploit at its best. It's a pity, but ok, you are the developer and i can't force you to do what i need if you don't want to. Thank you anyway