Popular Post Miska Posted November 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted November 17, 2020 51 minutes ago, rossco said: This is interesting to me. I have a whole load of different cables in my network, mostly Cat 6 or 7, probably. Some Audioquest, lots of Amazon basiscs etc. I suppose it might be worth checking the last run, so the cable from the switch to the streamer is UTP and not STP/SFTP?? Yes, certainly at least that part. Since it has further connection to the DAC and sensitive analog audio equipment. Use of UTP cables it the default. This is what is used to wire office buildings, homes and connecting computers to the wall sockets. For example in my house and office all in-wall cabling is CAT6/CAT7 UTP. Typically wall sockets are also UTP type. Many internet modems have UTP connectors for safety reasons. This is safe and expected default state. In special cases STP/SFTP can be used. An example is datacenter rack where all equipment gets power from the same earthed IEC power distribution block and the rack itself is earthed with a separate ground wire. In such place, where the grounding design of all associated equipment is carefully designed, the equipment can be interconnected with STP/SFTP cables. The runs that leave the datacenter would typically use UTP or fiber to prevent unwanted ground currents on the shield, which could grow into dangerous levels on long runs. For example different rooms of a building could have mains from a different phase than the other one, and have at least separate earth run, creating very problematic environment if you'd have ground connection between the rooms. For home environment, you definitely want to use UTP for cases like: Interconnected (all involved equipment somehow connected together) equipment is mixed floating and earthed power (three / two pin IEC power cords) Interconnected equipment is powered from different power wall sockets and/or power distribution blocks Interconnected equipment involves connection to coaxial cable TV network or TV antenna Interconnected equipment involves a computer with 3-pin IEC power socket and any piece of audio equipment that doesn't use same type of power connection from the same distribution block Note that even when using same mains socket and same power distribution block, it still doesn't guarantee that notably lowest impedance path would be through the power block. For this reason the reference to the earthed 19" rack case, where chassis of each device is likely connected to the rack itself. This list is not exhaustive, but just some examples where STP/SFTP cable would be very bad. So unless you are absolutely sure that grounding topology design of the entire system that have cables to each other, including mains connections combined with network connection, is fit for use of STP/SFTP cables, stick to UTP cables throughout. I posted these pics about three years ago first time, so I'll repeat just in case. Good cable: Bad cable: Reason: Sure this is simplified, but there have been enough many cases where these things have become problem to the extent that it also becomes a functional problem. When functional problems appear, things are pretty bad already. And the reason why I talk about this is that one function of a NAA is to keep it separated from the upstream network equipment. Optical link certainly does this, but also traditional copper wired ethernet has that capability, but only with correct type of cable. Even without a NAA, or despite of NAA, it is good to take same into account for the other equipment. Confused, bipet, blue2 and 2 others 3 1 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
bipet Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 This made an interesting read! Although I think my entire network is full of 'bad' cables. hmmm. I am in the UK, so I get a ground wire via the plug. My patch box is earthed. The Core, switch, NAA (RPI4) are all run from one PSU, a HD Plex. I might have a route through my wire box to see what is available on hand. If I was to go more UTP in the future, would there be issues of cross-talk? I try and keep cables tidy, but its inevitably a losing battle. Link to comment
Miska Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 18 minutes ago, rossco said: I might have a route through my wire box to see what is available on hand. If I was to go more UTP in the future, would there be issues of cross-talk? I try and keep cables tidy, but its inevitably a losing battle. No, the signaling is differential and any cross-talk or other such would be common mode signal that doesn't affect the differential signaling. And due to differential signaling and the twisted pair cable design, the amount of radiated power is really small. I've been at many corporate patch rooms where there are stacks of 48-port switches and hundreds of bundled UTP cables running from switches to cable carriers above lowered ceiling throughout the office. With cable lengths in tens of meters and probably hundreds of km of cable. And without issues... But just in case, try to keep USB, ethernet and analog audio cables at least 20 mm apart. In addition, modern self respecting switches and network adapters have support for 802.3az (EEE) standard with cable length detection. They can adjust to lower transmit powers for shorter cable runs, without having to blast at the power needed for 200m cable lengths. In addition, they can go into low power idle mode when there is no traffic and thus becoming even more quiet. For this reason it is my recommendation to use this feature as well, although it is not functionally mandatory. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
bipet Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Ok, at the bottom of my wire box, and I do mean the bottom, were a bunch of Belkin Cat6 UTP 24AWG wires! Like I had saved them for later!! I think the majority of my cables currently installed in my house are FTP, which I gather is UTP with a foil jacket but they all have metal connectors aswell. I can easily swap them over. I also have a few Audioquest cables, but not sure what they are, I need to check a bit more, but they defintely have metal connectors. I suppose I can compare before and after. Link to comment
Miska Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, rossco said: I am in the UK, so I get a ground wire via the plug. Note that some computers, like at least Mac Mini's (at leas the one's I've had) are floating ones. They use the small two pin power connector. Many laptop chargers (but not all) are also similar. While desktop PC's and for example iMac use 3-pin grounded power connector. It is even more mixed with audio equipment. Many of my amplifiers have 3-pin connection while some have only 2-pin IEC power (triangular connector, but just two pins). Most problematic and relatively common setup I've seen is a TV connected to cable TV network and HDMI cable going to a PC. Pretty much all TV's are floating and have the antenna/cable coax connector ground connected to chassis. This same ground is also connected to the HDMI connector chassis. Not a problem with most BluRay players and such since they are usually also floating ones. But when you connect a PC with 3-pin mains connector, it's chassis is connected to mains ground. Now you suddenly form a ground path: Cable network -> TV -> HDMI -> Computer -> Mains I have many times seen 115 V AC potential between cable network ground and local mains ground... Sometimes sparks flying from the ground connections when you plugin connector in such setup. Like electrostatic discharge... This ground connection in turn also tends to create audible hum on connected audio equipment. Just an example of extreme problem case with ground connections. blue2 1 Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
bipet Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 hours ago, Miska said: CAT7 UTP Quick question, can you get CAT7 UTP patch cables? Link to comment
Miska Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 14 minutes ago, rossco said: Quick question, can you get CAT7 UTP patch cables? No, AFAIK, not ones that would be standard compliant. So if you want to use 10 Gbps ethernet and have galvanic isolation you definitely want to use fiber instead. Although you can use CAT6 UTP for shorter distances of 10 Gbps ethernet (up to 55m instead of 100m). Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 1 hour ago, rossco said: Ok, at the bottom of my wire box, and I do mean the bottom, were a bunch of Belkin Cat6 UTP 24AWG wires! Like I had saved them for later!! I think the majority of my cables currently installed in my house are FTP, which I gather is UTP with a foil jacket but they all have metal connectors aswell. I can easily swap them over. I also have a few Audioquest cables, but not sure what they are, I need to check a bit more, but they defintely have metal connectors. I suppose I can compare before and after. Just in case, metal covers on some connectors can be easily removed. For example, I easily did it on Supra СAT8. The sound has changed for the better, however, the subsequent replacing Supra CAT8 with Meicord UTP cables has led to a further improvement. Also, another STP cable was used far upstream, for connection to the wi-fi router, and even its replacement with the UTP gave a positive result. Link to comment
bipet Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 30 minutes ago, Miska said: No, AFAIK, not ones that would be standard compliant. So if you want to use 10 Gbps ethernet and have galvanic isolation you definitely want to use fiber instead. Although you can use CAT6 UTP for shorter distances of 10 Gbps ethernet (up to 55m instead of 100m). I am only talking domestic application. I think some black CAT6 UTP cables with plastic connectors, of varying lengths, might be worth buying then. I have had a quick look, but there is quite a lot of variability. Any thoughts on quality makes? Link to comment
bipet Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 15 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said: Just in case, metal covers on some connectors can be easily removed. For example, I easily did it on Supra СAT8. The sound has changed for the better, however, the subsequent replacing Supra CAT8 with Meicord UTP cables has led to a further improvement. Also, another STP cable was used far upstream, for connection to the wi-fi router, and even its replacement with the UTP gave a positive result. Missed this response intially, I will have a look at Meicord. Link to comment
Miska Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, rossco said: I am only talking domestic application. I think some black CAT6 UTP cables with plastic connectors, of varying lengths, might be worth buying then. I have had a quick look, but there is quite a lot of variability. Any thoughts on quality makes? I have various different brands etc, depending what I want at a particular time. There's plenty of choice for the ordinary ones, but for some cases I'm using thin round or flat-ribbon type cables when the device in question is small (like microRendu) to avoid cable pulling the device around etc. Here's one example (sorry for the page in Finnish): https://www.deltaco.fi/tuoteryhmät/kaapelit-ja-sovittimet/verkkokaapelit/cat6a/patch-u-utp/2m/UUTP-1313 https://www.deltaco.fi/tuoteryhmät/kaapelit-ja-sovittimet/verkkokaapelit/cat6a/patch-u-utp/2m/GAM-036 https://www.deltaco.fi/tuoteryhmät/verkkotuotteet/verkkokaapelit/UUTP-2057 These are 500 MHz CAT6a good for 10 Gbps. I'm pretty sure something like Belkin is fine. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 18 minutes ago, rossco said: Missed this response intially, I will have a look at Meicord. This is a small German company that is very attentive to the process of manufacturing its cables, it is their only product. You have to keep in mind that their cables are quite rigid. Link to comment
SunYang Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 Did anybody compare good UTP cable with fiber one? Link to comment
giordy60 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 hi Jussi a question ... have you never thought about implementing audio streaming (Qobuz-tidal) on Hqplayer desktop? there are players (audirvana and Jriver) that have this function, it would be interesting to be able to directly manage the streaming from HQPlayer desktop. thanks for the work you do! sistema: Server HDPlex (i7-6700-WS2016) HQPlayer con Ramdisk + HQPDcontrol > Macmini (roon core+Qobuz) o HQPlayer Client + Qobuz > HDPlex NAA (celeron G1840T-WS2016) NAD con Ramdisk, o miniPC Fitlet con immagine di Miska > Denafrips Ares2 , SPLvolume2 > Monitor KH+sub Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 4 hours ago, giordy60 said: hi Jussi a question ... have you never thought about implementing audio streaming (Qobuz-tidal) on Hqplayer desktop? there are players (audirvana and Jriver) that have this function, it would be interesting to be able to directly manage the streaming from HQPlayer desktop. thanks for the work you do! +1 Link to comment
Miska Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 For Tidal, I can say that they don't seem to want to talk to me. Likely because I'm not huge fan of MQA. :D But since there are other ways to do it, it is not so big problem. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
AnotherSpin Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 25 minutes ago, Miska said: For Tidal, I can say that they don't seem to want to talk to me. Likely because I'm not huge fan of MQA. :D But since there are other ways to do it, it is not so big problem. What are the ways to stream Qobuz through HQPlayer which are not a problem? Thank you 🙂 Link to comment
Miska Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said: What are the ways to stream Qobuz through HQPlayer which are not a problem? Thank you 🙂 I cannot test Qobuz yet, since it is not available in Finland. But so far likely same as Tidal, so either through Roon or digital inputs. Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers Link to comment
giordy60 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 29 minutes ago, Miska said: But so far likely same as Tidal, so either through Roon or digital inputs. what do you mean by digital inputs? can you be more precise? 1 hour ago, Miska said: Likely because I'm not huge fan of MQA. is that a problem? can technically switch from HQP? (there are MQA filters on HQP) it will be up to the user to use this format or not as for pcm or dsd sistema: Server HDPlex (i7-6700-WS2016) HQPlayer con Ramdisk + HQPDcontrol > Macmini (roon core+Qobuz) o HQPlayer Client + Qobuz > HDPlex NAA (celeron G1840T-WS2016) NAD con Ramdisk, o miniPC Fitlet con immagine di Miska > Denafrips Ares2 , SPLvolume2 > Monitor KH+sub Link to comment
bogi Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 14 minutes ago, giordy60 said: what do you mean by digital inputs? can you be more precise? See here https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/19715-hq-player/?do=findComment&comment=1088876 i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500 Link to comment
giordy60 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, bogi said: See here can it be done only with HQPembedded? i already bought a mac license then one for windows, I just miss embedded ..... so I have all three. sistema: Server HDPlex (i7-6700-WS2016) HQPlayer con Ramdisk + HQPDcontrol > Macmini (roon core+Qobuz) o HQPlayer Client + Qobuz > HDPlex NAA (celeron G1840T-WS2016) NAD con Ramdisk, o miniPC Fitlet con immagine di Miska > Denafrips Ares2 , SPLvolume2 > Monitor KH+sub Link to comment
bogi Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 In the Desktop version: File -> Settings -> Input device settings - similar to Output device settings. I didn't try it but it is here ... giordy60 1 i7 11850H + RTX A2000 Win11 HQPlayer ► Topping HS02 ► 2x iFi iSilencer ► SMSL D300 ► DIY headamp DHA1 ► HiFiMan HE-500 Link to comment
giordy60 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 14 minutes ago, bogi said: In the Desktop version: File -> Settings -> Input device settings - similar to Output device settings. I didn't try it but it is here ... great Bogi! 👌 now only a connection diagram is missing sistema: Server HDPlex (i7-6700-WS2016) HQPlayer con Ramdisk + HQPDcontrol > Macmini (roon core+Qobuz) o HQPlayer Client + Qobuz > HDPlex NAA (celeron G1840T-WS2016) NAD con Ramdisk, o miniPC Fitlet con immagine di Miska > Denafrips Ares2 , SPLvolume2 > Monitor KH+sub Link to comment
ccc888 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 On 4/27/2019 at 3:50 AM, Miska said: The new Client application will grow further over time. Technically it can be now built for tablet OS as well. For phones it's design is too big though. Hi Miska, Is it possible to make HQPlayer server run in the background without showing its interface. Something like a Roon server. Being able to control HQPlayer Embedded via web page is a great idea, wondering if it's possible to do the same thing on HQPlayer 4 server. I use Roon to stream music to HQPlayer, I can do most controls via my phone/tablet, but I have to go to the computer to change HQPlayer's configuration, a web interface would be super helpful. I've been wanting it for years. Could you make it happen please? Link to comment
giordy60 Posted November 18, 2020 Share Posted November 18, 2020 you can do it from tablet or cell. by installing HQPDcontrol and enabling the icon on the hqplayer desktop. sistema: Server HDPlex (i7-6700-WS2016) HQPlayer con Ramdisk + HQPDcontrol > Macmini (roon core+Qobuz) o HQPlayer Client + Qobuz > HDPlex NAA (celeron G1840T-WS2016) NAD con Ramdisk, o miniPC Fitlet con immagine di Miska > Denafrips Ares2 , SPLvolume2 > Monitor KH+sub Link to comment
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