HQ Player

[Miska]

7 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Is your preferred loopback software bit-perfect for different sample rates?

 

I don't have any preferred loopback. Only loopback I have ever tested is the ALSA one on Linux.

 

7 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

And does HQP Desktop feature automatic sample rate switching?

 

Most normal audio APIs or drivers don't actually support sample rate slaving. They tend to assume application to set sampling rate instead of being unaware of it. ASIO supports clock slave, but very few drivers actually support this, even though it is in the official documentation.

 

7 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

How to set this up in HQP Desktop?

 

You can select input device in HQPlayer settings. There is some documentation about the operation here and in the manual.

 

[jimdukey]

I've been running the Volume in Prefs at -3 and-3.

Is there any reason I would like -6 and 0 better?

I'm listening to everything at DSD 128, using the new Modulator ASDM7EC, 48/128.

My Desktop system has a bit of an aggressive treble and when I compared the Volume Settings, I found the -6,0 setting to not 

be quite so sharp in the attack .

 

[Miska]

6 minutes ago, jimdukey said:

I've been running the Volume in Prefs at -3 and-3.

Is there any reason I would like -6 and 0 better?

 

Only if you end up with limiting on some albums, like I have couple where -3 dB is not enough. Having range set to -6 to 0 is convenient, default setting of -3 dB on Desktop GUI pointing up and easy turn couple of steps around.

 

11 minutes ago, jimdukey said:

I'm listening to everything at DSD 128, using the new Modulator ASDM7EC, 48/128.

My Desktop system has a bit of an aggressive treble and when I compared the Volume Settings, I found the -6,0 setting to not 

be quite so sharp in the attack .

 

Couple of dB shouldn't really make a difference in that respect. But you could try ASDM5EC instead to check if it sounds less aggressive. At lower DSD rates this makes more difference.

 

[WilliamWykeham]

@Miska

Newish HQPlayer user here, Adaptive rate output question:

 

Why would a user want to leave the “adaptive rate output” box grayed instead of checked? General advice seems to be to leave it gray, but here is my experience:

 

44.1k file playing, poly-sinc-long filter, 192k sample rate limit selected since many of my streamed files are 48k from Tidal.  

 

With adaptive output rate grayed when a 44.1k file plays, HQP selects 192k as the output, causing the program to hang and requiring a restart.

 

With adaptive output rate checked instead of grayed, HQP selects the correct output, 176.4k, all’s good.

 

So when streaming PCM you would recommend to always leave the box checked instead of gray? Any instances when I would want to leave it gray?

 

Meanwhile DSD appears to work as I hoped, with the lower rate as an output when adaptive rate is either checked or when it is grayed; perhaps output would differ if 48k DSD were selected, I will need to experiment with my D90 dac.  

 

I’m using Roon as a client and 4.3.3 Desktop, Windows 10 pro.  

[Miska]

13 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

@Miska

Newish HQPlayer user here, Adaptive rate output question:

 

Why would a user want to leave the “adaptive rate output” box grayed instead of checked? General advice seems to be to leave it gray, but here is my experience:

 

In order to stick to fixed output rate as possible. Grayed is flexible rule, white (unchecked) is strict rule.

 

14 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

44.1k file playing, poly-sinc-long filter, 192k sample rate limit selected since many of my streamed files are 48k from Tidal.  

 

With adaptive output rate grayed when a 44.1k file plays, HQP selects 192k as the output, causing the program to hang and requiring a restart.

 

It doesn't hang, you can see from CPU load that it is doing initialization work on all physical cores. You just need to wait long enough for it to finish. If you select some other filter like poly-sinc-ext2 or poly-sinc-xtr, the initialization goes faster. Initializing poly-sinc-long filter from 44.1-base to 48-base is pretty time consuming process.

 

16 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

With adaptive output rate checked instead of grayed, HQP selects the correct output, 176.4k, all’s good.

 

Why would 176.4k be any more "correct" than any other rate?

 

17 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

So when streaming PCM you would recommend to always leave the box checked instead of gray? Any instances when I would want to leave it gray?

 

No, not necessarily. For example if someone is using one of the modern motherboard audio, they typically support only 44.1, 48, 96 and 192 rates, but not 88.2 or 176.4 at all.

 

In addition, most DACs don't support 48k-base DSD rates, so for SDM output to those DACs (which is the most typical HQPlayer use case) one would probably want to leave the box white to make HQPlayer always stick to the selected output rate. If you have the box checked with such a DAC, HQPlayer refuses to play any 48-base content because there are no matching output rates.

 

31 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

Meanwhile DSD appears to work as I hoped, with the lower rate as an output when adaptive rate is either checked or when it is grayed; perhaps output would differ if 48k DSD were selected, I will need to experiment with my D90 dac.

 

Do not select 48k DSD unless you are absolutely sure it works correctly. With most DACs it doesn't. Although with ASIO drivers it usually doesn't matter because the driver itself likely doesn't expose 48k-base rates unless they are supported.

 

[WilliamWykeham]

@Miska

 

Context for me and this question is that I have only basic technical understanding about computers and drivers, so there may be parts of this and other questions that are a bit confused. 

 

Driver question when using SDM:

 

In a single box setup using Roon and HQPlayer 4.3.3, I got poly-sinc-long-lp working great upsampling to 1536khz.  Sounds quite remarkable and smooth through Denafrips Terminator, no dropouts.  

 

Now I try me some ASDM7EC DSD 256, but find this won’t work, the music drops out for about a second at about 5 second intervals.

 

I suspect this is because I am using a one-box implementation, and have Wasapi selected in my backend input setting, and Terminator does not support DoP above DSD 64.

 

However I think at this point I am stuck since the output setting is AISO for the Terminator.  I have to use Wasapi for the input setting since AISO is taken for the output.  Which means the best I can do in my one box setup is DSD 64 DoP into the Terminator.  
 

Are any of my assumptions above incorrect?  Is there a workaround for Wasapi that will let me stream native DSD instead of DoP into the terminator? Could I try a driver like AISO4all, or will this not work since the output driver with the Terminator has to use ASIO?

 

Thank you! I am eager to compare PCM vs DSD 256/EC modulator in quick A/B test that won’t require switching to a two-box solution -  where I use NAA as output backend and SMS200 selected for the device output,  and AISO driver for the input backend, with Terminator selected as device.  I can get DSD 128 /ASDM7EC working in this two box implementation, but with occasional dropouts, possibly due to network issues that I still need to troubleshoot.  PCM meanwhile doesn’t work well yet in this two box implementation.

 

Further context is that my computer has been stripped down to minimal processes after AO and removal of other processes suggested by @StreamFidelity  in his thread on his recent server build.  

 

Thanks! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Miska]

On 4/18/2020 at 2:24 PM, asdf1000 said:

Both have separate clocks for 44.1kHz and 48kHz base rates

 

 

Does the 48k-base DSD actually work correctly? Having the clocks doesn't mean it works with DSD as we have seen in the past, as strange as it sounds.

 

[Miska]

2 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

However I think at this point I am stuck since the output setting is AISO for the Terminator.  I have to use Wasapi for the input setting since AISO is taken for the output.  Which means the best I can do in my one box setup is DSD 64 DoP into the Terminator.  
 

Are any of my assumptions above incorrect?  Is there a workaround for Wasapi that will let me stream native DSD instead of DoP into the terminator? Could I try a driver like AISO4all, or will this not work since the output driver with the Terminator has to use ASIO?

 

It is not clear to me, are you actually using the input for something? What do you use as input device?

 

ASIO4ALL is just ASIO emulation on top of WASAPI. Not very useful most of the time.

 

4 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

AISO driver for the input backend, with Terminator selected as device

 

I don't think you can use Terminator as input device?

 

5 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

I can get DSD 128 /ASDM7EC working in this two box implementation, but with occasional dropouts, possibly due to network issues that I still need to troubleshoot.  PCM meanwhile doesn’t work well yet in this two box implementation.

 

If you have a smart switch, remember to enable 802.3x flow control for all ports.

 

[WilliamWykeham]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

  33 minutes ago, WilliamWykeham said:

With adaptive output rate checked instead of grayed, HQP selects the correct output, 176.4k, all’s good.

 

Why would 176.4k be any more "correct" than any other rate?

 

  33 mi

 

 

Thank you; misstatement on my part   

 

I think I should have written “HQP selects the output which will allow HQP to play music immediately without requiring a wait for the necessary processing.”

[MemoryPlayer]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

If you select some other filter like poly-sinc-ext2 or poly-sinc-xtr, the initialization goes faster.

 

What is the least CPU demand filter for use with DSD256 ASDM7EC?

[asdf1000]

2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Does the 48k-base DSD actually work correctly? Having the clocks doesn't mean it works with DSD as we have seen in the past, as strange as it sounds.

 

 

I'll ask them if both 11.2896MHz and 12.288MHz DSD sample rates are supported

[Miska]

2 hours ago, MemoryPlayer said:

What is the least CPU demand filter for use with DSD256 ASDM7EC?

 

I would say any poly-sinc -2s variant or -ext2 are so light compared to ASDM7EC modulator, that if a computer can run such modulator, the CPU load posed by said filters is pretty small.

 

[StreamFidelity]

3 hours ago, WilliamWykeham said:

I suspect this is because I am using a one-box implementation, and have Wasapi selected in my backend input setting, and Terminator does not support DoP above DSD 64.

 

I don't understand this setup. No matter if 1 or 2 box system it should always run the same with Roon:

1. select "Add HQPlayer" in Roon setup

2. set the HQPlayer Output Device Setings to Backend "ASIO" and Device to "Vinshine Denafrips USB DAC". Look Denafrips Support "USB driver". Check "48K DSD".

[MemoryPlayer]

30 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I would say any poly-sinc -2s variant or -ext2 are so light compared to ASDM7EC modulator, that if a computer can run such modulator, the CPU load posed by said filters is pretty small.

 

Is DSD128 with ASDM7EC modulator better sound than DSD256 with any modulator combination except ASDM5EC and ASDM7EC?

[ericuco]

6 minutes ago, MemoryPlayer said:

Is DSD128 with ASDM7EC modulator better sound than DSD256 with any modulator combination except ASDM5EC and ASDM7EC?

 

Why not try for yourself and see what YOU like best? This generally comes down to personal taste and equipment (e.g. DAC).

[jimdukey]

Ah, OK, I will try that!

No CPU problems, I can even play most things with Poly Sinc Long-LP,

but not everything.

[jimdukey]

And thanks for the Volume Control Tip!

[WilliamWykeham]

Many thanks @Miska and @StreamFidelity

 

I now understand that my prior few posts reflect a completely erroneous understanding about how HQPlayer works.  

 

I’ve gotten DSD 256 / EC modulator working great now.

 

Only other thing that’s curious to me is that I have to also check the DoP box to ensure that HQPlayer doesn’t default to PCM, but this is something I can ask Alvin at Denafrips about, as their website looks like the Terminator should support non-DoP DSD.

 

 

[MemoryPlayer]

56 minutes ago, ericuco said:

 

Why not try for yourself and see what YOU like best? This generally comes down to personal taste and equipment (e.g. DAC).

 

I can play DSD512 com bootcamp and Win10 (except ASDM5EC or ASDM7EC).

MBP & OS X Catalina DSD256 doesn't play these modulators, this is the reason for the question...

When I can compare, I trust in my ears and don't ask!

[LoryWiv]

1 hour ago, MemoryPlayer said:

Is DSD128 with ASDM7EC modulator better sound than DSD256 with any modulator combination except ASDM5EC and ASDM7EC?

I have  reached the conclusion that yes it is, but of course that's in my system / my ears. I find the EC modulators to be the most natural and musical, without sacrificing "technicalities" for lack of a better word. I can run ASDM7EC with almost any filter at DSD128 and invariably prefer it to non-EC modulators at DSD256. 

[jimdukey]

OK, That is going  to save me a lot of $...!!!

I'm already There!

No, Seriously, thanks for the info.

It has come up before, they agreed with you.

[MemoryPlayer]

1 hour ago, LoryWiv said:

I have  reached the conclusion that yes it is, but of course that's in my system / my ears. I find the EC modulators to be the most natural and musical, without sacrificing "technicalities" for lack of a better word. I can run ASDM7EC with almost any filter at DSD128 and invariably prefer it to non-EC modulators at DSD256. 

Thank you! Non-EC modulators now sound fat and veiled for me, even to DSD512.

I also think the odd transparency with EC modulators is unmatched by any other non-EC ones!

Sounds as EC combined with DSD512 by now is nirvana.

Misha needs work with EC variations that drawn less CPU power..., PLEASE.

[Miska]

5 hours ago, MemoryPlayer said:

Is DSD128 with ASDM7EC modulator better sound than DSD256 with any modulator combination except ASDM5EC and ASDM7EC?

 

There is no simple answer to that. I would personally rather stick to DSD256 with for example ASDM7 if not able to run EC modulators as DSD256. This is what I'm doing on my living room set with passive cooled i5-7600T (with output to either Playback Designs Merlot or TEAC NT-503).

 

But in the end the one you like more matters. Both ways produce good results, even from objective perspective it is hard to say which way to go. Depends on what attributes are weighted the most and what kind of DAC is being used.

[juanitox]

long time  polysync lp DSD5v2  DSD512   adept , i must say that with the T+A DAC8  the  Polysynclp ASMD5ec DSD256 is really a game changer ,  for the price of the HQP3 update to HQP4 i have a brand new dac .   great job Miska 👍

[asdf1000]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

Playback Designs Merlot

 

Oh! When did you get this !?

 

You can't by-pass their internal DSP right?