HQ Player

[LowOrbit]

4 hours ago, rickca said:

@k6davis thanks those are very useful results.  I had been considering i7-9700K and Ryzen 3700X.  The 3700X is particularly attractive because it's 65W, but I'm not sure whether 3700X will outperform 2700X enough to change the Intel/AMD decision in your use case.  I've looked at the published benchmarks, but they may not be representative of HQPlayer performance.  Ryzen 3700x has twice the L3 cache vs 2700X, but I'm not sure that will do the trick.

Hi

 

As per my  post from a couple days ago - I have experimented extensively with Ryzen 3700X on X570 mobo. It seems it doesn't improve on your 2700X as far as running EC modulators. I can almost get 44.1 x 256 SDM running, but never totally smoothly. Always quite brief glitches. I can run any filter with ASDM7EC at DSD128, and that seems the sweet spot for reproduction. Sounds terrific.

 

Looks like the AMD chips just don't boost to high enough core speeds for a stable period of time to deliver the DSD256 experience we crave with the current HQP code. 

 

Going back to Intel may be the only way right now. Good to hear that the 9700K can hit the target, even if it needs some GPU assistance for the heavier filter loads.

[rickca]

3 hours ago, k6davis said:

i7-9900K

In post #15472, you were talking about an i7-9700K.  In post #15475, you say i7-9900K (actually, the 9900K is an i9).

 

Could you please clarify whether your experience is on 9700K vs 9900K?  I'm hoping you mean 9700K.

[k6davis]

58 minutes ago, rickca said:

In post #15472, you were talking about an i7-9700K.  In post #15475, you say i7-9900K (actually, the 9900K is an i9).

 

Could you please clarify whether your experience is on 9700K vs 9900K?  I'm hoping you mean 9700K.

 

Very sorry. Late night sleepy posting. 

 

i7-9700K all the way. I wish I could edit that.

[JTS]

5 hours ago, k6davis said:

i7-9900K + RTX 2080: Full EC DSD256 with all filters including poly-sinc-xtr

Great tests and thanks for sharing your findings @k6davis.

 

You could also add i9-9900K + non ti GTX 1080: Full EC DSD256 with all filters including poly-sinc-xtr

 

Edit: just saw that you were talking about the 9700k. nothing to see here. carry on 🙂

[k6davis]

10 minutes ago, JTS said:

Great tests and thanks for sharing your findings @k6davis.

 

You could also add i9-9900K + non ti GTX 1080: Full EC DSD256 with all filters including poly-sinc-xtr

 

Thanks @JTS

 

Oh okay. I wasn't able to get that from my i7-9700K + GTX 1650 setup. It was the only combination that did not work for me. Everything else it handled with ease.

[k6davis]

55 minutes ago, JTS said:

Edit: just saw that you were talking about the 9700k. nothing to see here. carry on 🙂

 

Yeah, the confusion is my fault. Sorry. 

 

But either way, you still get full EC DSD256, and I was really impressed by the value from the GTX 1650. The RTX 2080 was handling the filters with so much ease that it seemed like more GPU than I needed. That hunch was correct.

[ted_b]

As I continue to sit on the sidelines (my music room isn't built yet) I anticipate loving the newer HQP with all its EC modulators, etc.  And I ask the following questions:

 

* for those of you eschewing DSD512 for a lower DSD256 and its working EC modulators, what specifically is it about the trade off that you love (musically)?  It must be quite significant to go through all the hardware change expenses.  I ask cuz I found that the jump from 256 to 512 was well worth it, back in non-EC days. 

 

* have any of you that are wondering what the EC modulators and 512 sounds like tried doing this offline with the HQP Pro trial (realizing you only get 1 minute of samples, but 1 minute can be enough to make decisions sometime)?  BTW, if you are a classical fan, realize that our NativeDSD site now offers 512 examples done with Jussi's EC modulators, so if you are well versed in what the lower DSD rates sound like in those recordings you can give them a try.

 

I bring up the second question cuz it seems like it is premature to currently try and hardware your way to this when Jussi believes he will eventually create more efficient EC modulators.  But creating offline 512 samples can help resolve whether its even worth waiting around for Jussi or Intel/AMD to solve (it's what I would do if my system were up, but then again I'm a goofball ).

 

[k6davis]

EC is beautiful Ted. It's hard to describe without going into the usual audiophile cliches, but there's a significant increase in clarity on transients with absolutely zero harshness. There's better imaging too. It takes you deeper into the music. I just switched back to non-EC DSD512 when I read your question and while I used to think it was the pinnacle, it seemed a bit flat by comparison. I wanted to switch back immediately.

I'll take it even further. With the AMD chip, I could do non-EC DSD512 all day but was limited to EC DSD128... and I still listened in EC! Jussi has been really modest about it.

I have no idea how much he may optimize his code, but as things stand today, we are nowhere near EC DSD512. It's all very staggered. AMD coasts on hi-res non-EC DSD512, can't get started with RedBook EC DSD256. Intel coasts on hi-res EC DSD256, can't get started with RedBook EC DSD512. For us to get to hi-res EC DSD512 is going to take some major advancements from somebody - probably both Jussi and the chipmakers. Of course, it could happen at any time.

I'm with you about the expense of upgrading. Since I'm expecting to want to upgrade again to whatever will allow EC DSD512 someday, I'm doing it a modest cost. Swapping the i7-9700K and a new motherboard into my existing server is really not very pricey - for this hobby.

As for the 1 minute samples. That would drive me nuts. It would be either too short for me to really evaluate, or it would sound so good that I'd be tempted by buy an HQP Pro licence!

[ted_b]

6 minutes ago, k6davis said:

or it would sound so good that I'd be tempted by buy an HQP Pro licence!

   And a boatload more storage! 

 

Seriously, thanks for the response.  Your "and I still listened in EC" comment says it all.  I am stoked to hear the new HQP (its only been 16 months since I had my system up!!!!! )

[AudioXP]

Very interesting experiences and information shared here 👍. I’m also sitting at the tip of my saddle to start building my new/next system. How far would an i7-9700k - rtx 2060 (or 2070 (super)) setup take us?

[LowOrbit]

49 minutes ago, k6davis said:

EC is beautiful Ted. It's hard to describe without going into the usual audiophile cliches, but there's a significant increase in clarity on transients with absolutely zero harshness. There's better imaging too. It takes you deeper into the music. I just switched back to non-EC DSD512 when I read your question and while I used to think it was the pinnacle, it seemed a bit flat by comparison. I wanted to switch back immediately.

I'll take it even further. With the AMD chip, I could do non-EC DSD512 all day but was limited to EC DSD128... and I still listened in EC! Jussi has been really modest about it.

 

This sums up my experience very nicely. I am not bothered about DSD512 - my primary DAC only runs upto DSD256, and I get so close to EC DSD256 with my setup that it is tantalisingly close. I prefer EC DSD128 over non-EC at any rate. It's both more correct and more musical, bass is cleaner, deeper, transients come across more potently and voices are clearer. Those songs with the odd mumbled or indistinct lyric - now much more intelligible. And the tonal variation and truthfulness (tenor sax, strings, percussion sound richer, more alive).

 

I downloaded HQP-Pro, did the 1 minute sample thing, learned little, went back to listening to music.

[k6davis]

1 hour ago, AudioXP said:

Very interesting experiences and information shared here 👍. I’m also sitting at the tip of my saddle to start building my new/next system. How far would an i7-9700k - rtx 2060 (or 2070 (super)) setup take us?

 

That would be a powerful system. There's a lot of detailed discussion on that topic on the last couple of pages and there's more if you go back a little further.

[AudioXP]

Yes, sure, I’m following the postings “live” 😉. But there was nothing so far on the rtx < 2080 GPU’s... 

[craighartley]

13 minutes ago, AudioXP said:

Yes, sure, I’m following the postings “live” 😉. But there was nothing so far on the rtx < 2080 GPU’s... 

 

[rando]

5 hours ago, ted_b said:

BTW, if you are a classical fan, realize that our NativeDSD site now offers 512 examples done with Jussi's EC modulators, so if you are well versed in what the lower DSD rates sound like in those recordings you can give them a try.

 

Is this by selecting 512 on the current sampler or separate examples? 

 

What rate did you upsample from or how did you use his EC Modulators on native rate DSD?

[dean70]

Question on the Windows NAA - there is an environment variable set for BACKEND to WASAP in the downloaded batch files. I how do I set it to use the ASIO DAC driver?

[Miska]

7 minutes ago, dean70 said:

Question on the Windows NAA - there is an environment variable set for BACKEND to WASAP in the downloaded batch files. I how do I set it to use the ASIO DAC driver?

 

Default is "asio" and you can change it to "wasapi" if you want to. If you explicitly want to define ASIO, then the correct value is "asio".

 

[sixman]

Have not looked in here for a while. So many upgrades. Is upgrading Desktop 4 to 4.1.0 the same as with 3 - do you need to uninstall on windows and then install the new version?

Do the new modulators work in PCM as well?

[asdf1000]

For those having chest pains with ADSM7EC and ext2 filter struggles, try poly-sinc-lp-2s until Jussi optimises things.

 

poly-sinc-lp-2s is a much easier CPU loading and sounds great.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

4 hours ago, sixman said:

Have not looked in here for a while. So many upgrades. Is upgrading Desktop 4 to 4.1.0 the same as with 3 - do you need to uninstall on windows and then install the new version?

Do the new modulators work in PCM as well?

modulators are SDM specific

uninstall, install : yes

[Bob Stern]

14 hours ago, ted_b said:

for those of you eschewing DSD512 for a lower DSD256 and its working EC modulators, what specifically is it about the trade off that you love (musically)?

 

I find ASDM7EC at DSD128 (the highest my CPU can go) has much better "purity" than ASDM7 at either DSD128 or DSD256.  (My DAC cannot do DSD512.)

 

Other parameters were Redbook source, poly-sinc-ext2 filter, 19-bit dither.

 

According to OS X Activity Monitor, ASDM7EC at DSD128 loads CPU about 15% more than ASDM7 at DSD256.

[Yviena]

@Miska Is it not possible to make HQplayer prerender parts of the music storing it in memory etc, so EC modulators can be used with CPU that has worse single thread performance, i don't think the upsampling is latency sensitive but it will probably make the UI not as responsive, and probably vastly increase ram used.

[Miska]

41 minutes ago, Yviena said:

@Miska Is it not possible to make HQplayer prerender parts of the music storing it in memory etc, so EC modulators can be used with CPU that has worse single thread performance, i don't think the upsampling is latency sensitive but it will probably make the UI not as responsive, and probably vastly increase ram used.

 

How much do you think would be nice? If five minute song takes ten minutes to process, waiting 10 minutes for music playback to start is not that nice.

 

[Theobetley]

Which of the new modulators are high performance? All under sdm?

[k6davis]

16 minutes ago, Theobetley said:

Which of the new modulators are high performance? All under sdm?

 

Yes, they are all SDM. They all have "EC" in their names. DSD5EC, ASDM5EC & ASDM7EC.