HQ Player

[Rune]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

Server CPUs are not very nice because they tend to have lot of cores, but not particularly high clock frequencies. With GPU, critical point is "single thread" performance in a case where all cores are loaded, which could mean that CPU drops close to base clock frequency.

will the single core performance of the Ryzen 9 3900X be high enough  for DSD512 with ASDM7EC?

It should do at least 3.8GHz on all 12 cores.

 

I am asking because I am considering getting one as soon as they are in stock in Denmark and have thought about trying HQPlayer for a long time.

I also have a GTX 1080 TI will that be of any benefit?

[Miska]

26 minutes ago, Rune said:

will the single core performance of the Ryzen 9 3900X be high enough  for DSD512 with ASDM7EC?

It should do at least 3.8GHz on all 12 cores.

 

We only know once someone tests. It is extremely hard to estimate...

 

27 minutes ago, Rune said:

I am asking because I am considering getting one as soon as they are in stock in Denmark and have thought about trying HQPlayer for a long time.

 

I will try to get the 16-core model once it becomes available in Finland.

 

28 minutes ago, Rune said:

I also have a GTX 1080 TI will that be of any benefit?

 

Yes, it is useful and can run many of the filters. It is not nearly as fast as RTX 2080 (Ti), but still good for many things. I have the regular GTX 1080 on my i7-6950X server (that's a Windows 10 machine).

 

[Theobetley]

Hey Jussi when do we get the update to HQP4 desktop?

[Le Concombre Masqué]

9 hours ago, Miska said:

 

GV100 would be interesting GPU, but nearly impossible to get. In Turing, Nvidia again has cut on the double precision floating point capacity.

 

Server CPUs are not very nice because they tend to have lot of cores, but not particularly high clock frequencies. With GPU, critical point is "single thread" performance in a case where all cores are loaded, which could mean that CPU drops close to base clock frequency.

 

Here are clock frequencies as reported by /proc/cpuinfo of the 8086K when playing DSD256 with ASDM7EC:

cpu MHz		: 4402.130
cpu MHz		: 4402.126
cpu MHz		: 4397.454
cpu MHz		: 4354.592
cpu MHz		: 4364.532
cpu MHz		: 4400.641
cpu MHz		: 4402.135
cpu MHz		: 4402.150
cpu MHz		: 4305.493
cpu MHz		: 4343.871
cpu MHz		: 4334.970
cpu MHz		: 4379.682

 

CUDA offload is by definition NVIDIA specific but is by essence? That is, could HQP offer the same benefits of using a GPU but with AMD GPUs?

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

CUDA offload is by definition NVIDIA specific but is by essence? That is, could HQP offer the same benefits of using a GPU but with AMD GPUs?

 

For AMD the GPU code would need to be rewritten and AMD doesn't offer anything like CUDA. If there at some point appears some sane support for AMD GPUs then it could be an option.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Theobetley said:

Hey Jussi when do we get the update to HQP4 desktop?

 

I'm working on it... I think I got some multi-core CPU support improvements done for the new algorithm.

 

[Rune]

12 hours ago, Miska said:

will try to get the 16-core model once it becomes available in Finland.

So the 4 extra cores is worth getting even though it will most likely run them all at a lower 3.5GHz compared to the 3950X 3.8Ghz all core.

I presume that at least base clock is what to expect when all cores are maxed out.

[Miska]

12 minutes ago, Rune said:

So the 4 extra cores is worth getting even though it will most likely run them all at a lower 3.5GHz compared to the 3950X 3.8Ghz all core.

I presume that at least base clock is what to expect when all cores are maxed out.

 

Maybe, or maybe not, wish I knew... I'm just making a bet...

 

Those extra cores potentially give more boost than is lost in the clock frequency drop, unless the clock speed becomes limiting factor. That again depends on how efficient the architecture is clock for clock. AMD claims that now with Ryzen 3 it is on par with Intel. But in the end every work load is different.

 

[seatrope]

@Miska 

Need a bit of help Jussi. I'm still on the latest maint. release of HQP3 (need to test before I spring for HQP4).

 

My NAA endpoint is a NUC7i7DNBE running Audiolinux, with the NAA service.

HQP3 Desktop is running on a i7-7700k machine. These are connected through a Brocade ICX-6650 enterprise switch (I got this for 10G support for my other machines, but both NAA and HQP3 machines are on 1G Ethernet connections).

 

Roon works great, very solid reliable connection. But when I try to connect HQP3 desktop to the Audiolinux NAA it is very flaky - I have to keep opening the settings before eventually the endpoint shows my Amanero card. 

 

Even after the connection is made, after a few minutes of playing the connection to the NAA shuts down and music stops. When I go back to HQP settings, there is again no audio device found.

 

Is this a multicast issue on the switch? Will you build in an option for a static route to the NAA endpoint so we can just enter an IP and be done instead of dealing with these autodiscovery protocols?

 

I'd really like to upgrade to HQP4 but given the troubles I've been having with NAA connectivity I would like to see this solved first... I did try the HQP4 trial, same thing.

 

Yeang

[Miska]

4 hours ago, seatrope said:

Even after the connection is made, after a few minutes of playing the connection to the NAA shuts down and music stops. When I go back to HQP settings, there is again no audio device found.

 

Is this a multicast issue on the switch? Will you build in an option for a static route to the NAA endpoint so we can just enter an IP and be done instead of dealing with these autodiscovery protocols?

 

Multicast is used only for finding the wanted NAA, usually NAAs use DHCP and thus end up with different IPs across restarts.

 

Once NAA is found, there's just a single persistent TCP connection between HQPlayer and NAA, no multicast used anymore. Sounds like the connection is lost in your case for some unknown reason. Please take a look at both HQPlayer and NAA logs around the time when it happens. Maybe there's a hint what goes wrong.

 

So entering IP wouldn't fix our problem...

 

As first thing I'd recommend booting up my NAA (or HQPlayer OS) image instead of Audiolinux and see if it makes any difference.

[luisma]

On 7/10/2019 at 6:35 PM, Miska said:

I will try to get the 16-core model once it becomes available

+1

[k6davis]

 

15 hours ago, Miska said:

Those extra cores potentially give more boost than is lost in the clock frequency drop, unless the clock speed becomes limiting factor. That again depends on how efficient the architecture is clock for clock. AMD claims that now with Ryzen 3 it is on par with Intel. But in the end every work load is different.

 

On 7/10/2019 at 6:35 PM, Miska said:

I will try to get the 16-core model once it becomes available in Finland.

 

49 minutes ago, luisma said:

+1

 

19 hours ago, Miska said:

I'm working on it... I think I got some multi-core CPU support improvements done for the new algorithm.

 

The new AMD 12 & 16 core Ryzen chips are the first consumer chips built on the more efficient 7nm process. Plus they have double the floating point performance of the previous generation. According to the many reviews out now, the performance of the AMD 12 core chip far exceeds Intel's i9-9900K for multi-threaded tasks.

 

I wish I knew how the 12 core chip performs with HQP. It's sold out everywhere I've looked - which is just as well, because I think I'll be better off waiting for the 16 core model, available in September. I'm hoping for DSD512 EC for at least RedBook - maybe even for some forms of hi-res.

[seatrope]

5 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Multicast is used only for finding the wanted NAA, usually NAAs use DHCP and thus end up with different IPs across restarts.

 

Once NAA is found, there's just a single persistent TCP connection between HQPlayer and NAA, no multicast used anymore. Sounds like the connection is lost in your case for some unknown reason. Please take a look at both HQPlayer and NAA logs around the time when it happens. Maybe there's a hint what goes wrong.

 

So entering IP wouldn't fix our problem...

 

As first thing I'd recommend booting up my NAA (or HQPlayer OS) image instead of Audiolinux and see if it makes any difference.

Jussi,

Thanks so much for recommending the NAA image. Is your NAA image different from HQPlayer OS?

 

Is there a guide somewhere that I can refer to for basic things like what the login password is, what options I can set/optimize, how to load everything in RAM etc?

 

I have the vanilla image running and it seems to have fixed the issue with the Audiolinux NAA dropping constantly. Will let it run overnight and see.

[seatrope]

23 minutes ago, k6davis said:

 

 

 

 

 

The new AMD 12 & 16 core Ryzen chips are the first consumer chips built on the more efficient 7nm process. Plus they have double the floating point performance of the previous generation. According to the many reviews out now, the performance of the AMD 12 core chip far exceeds Intel's i9-9900K for multi-threaded tasks.

 

I wish I knew how the 12 core chip performs with HQP. It's sold out everywhere I've looked - which is just as well, because I think I'll be better off waiting for the 16 core model, available in September. I'm hoping for DSD512 EC for at least RedBook - maybe even for some forms of hi-res.

I'm pretty excited for this too.

 

I've been running a Threadripper 1950X which was the first machine I owned which could do DSD512 with the xtr- non2s filters. Now with this EC stuff that's another level...

[k6davis]

1 hour ago, seatrope said:

Jussi,

Thanks so much for recommending the NAA image. Is your NAA image different from HQPlayer OS?

 

Is there a guide somewhere that I can refer to for basic things like what the login password is, what options I can set/optimize, how to load everything in RAM etc?

 

I have the vanilla image running and it seems to have fixed the issue with the Audiolinux NAA dropping constantly. Will let it run overnight and see.

 

This link for HQP OS/Embedded can answer some of your questions. 

 

The HQP OS contains the NAA capability and there's also a separate NAA (only) image. I have no idea why it would be, but I preferred the sound of using the full HQP OS image as the NAA. Could easily be placebo, or something I was doing wrong, because they should sound the same, but the cost to run NAA either way is $0. Not sure about your other questions.

 

1 hour ago, seatrope said:

I'm pretty excited for this too.

 

I've been running a Threadripper 1950X which was the first machine I owned which could do DSD512 with the xtr- non2s filters. Now with this EC stuff that's another level...

 

Definitely. There's supposedly a new 64 (!!!!!) core Threadripper CPU coming later this year. It'll cost a lot, and be first gen for that level of tech. The good news is that, more sooner than later, affordable CPU's will be available that can handle any HQP setting... at least until Miska gets some more bright ideas....  😏

[Miska]

17 hours ago, seatrope said:

Thanks so much for recommending the NAA image. Is your NAA image different from HQPlayer OS?

 

There are three differences:

1) HQPlayer OS contains both NAA and HQPlayer Embedded so it is somewhat bigger

2) HQPlayer OS runs all detected network interfaces in bridged mode, so it supports multiple network interfaces that all belong to the same network. While NAA image attempts to run DHCP on all interfaces separately and won't come up unless it succeeds on all, so it is really intended for minimal hardware case with just single network interface.

3) HQPlayer OS runs through regular filesystem and loads only needed things to RAM, since it runs filesystem in read/write mode to enable storing settings and such, proper shutdown (using soft power button(*)) is recommended. While NAA image loads entire filesystem to RAM at boot time (most of the things will be never used, like drivers/firmware for things that don't exist in the hardware), but can be safely powered off by pulling the plug.

 

HQPlayer OS also theoretically supports WiFi (it has drivers and wpa_supplicant), while NAA doesn't (because you cannot store persistent configuration data).

 

*) Some BIOS have setting for "hard power off" delay, for example the Gigabyte motherboard I just installed had "immediate hard power off" by default, so I needed to change it to the other option which is four second delay. Thus short press on power button initiates proper soft shutdown and poweroff. This stuff is handled by PMIC/PMU.

 

[asdf1000]

On 6/6/2019 at 6:08 PM, Miska said:

We are talking about different thing here... None of the ESS models have DSD Direct -type support. TI/BB chips do that always, while some Cirrus Logic chips have "Direct DSD" mode to do the same.

 

Hi Jussi,

 

So Burr Brown's DSD1793 (as used in iFi DACs) always operate in 'Direct DSD' mode?

 

When using HQP for up-sampling to SDM, then the iFi DAC chip delta-sigma modulator is by-passed completely and HQP handles this task?

 

 

[sdmarquart]

Now, for something completely different. I'm an HQPlayer 4 Windows 10 desktop user. I use it on the back end of Roon Software in my home studio room. My home NAS library consists of nearly 11K albums and 230266 tracks. My DAC is the wonderful ADI-2 DAC FS. I use Curious USB cable into Recovery unit and then Curious link into DAC. My speakers are powered FOCAL Solo 6BE on ISOAcoustics stands. For awhile now I've been very happy with this setup and have put a lot of soundproofing in my room, along with lots of money, time and most importantly, listening!

 

Here's a screenshot of my HQPlayer settings. My goal is to get a "FLAT" sound. Nothing pumping up the highs and lows, just a clean flat signal to let the studio FOCAL speakers do their thing. I've done a little music mixing on my computer with a band I play in and the results using these speakers was good.

 

So recently, I had the bug to add a turntable to my home audio. Purchased a Denon DP-300F model and a Denon DL-110 moving coil cartridge. This is sent to a Cambridge Audio 651 Phono preamp. The analog out is sent to a $20 Musou RCA Analog to Digital converter. The optical signal from that is sent into my ADI-2 DAC. For the last couple weeks I've been listening to vinyl. I have a pretty wealthy collection but wanted to purchase some new vinyl to really play around with. These vinyl purchases include Keith Richards "Talk is Cheap: 30th Anniversary", Amy Winehouse "Back To Black", a ton of classic soul reissues from the ACE/KENT Soul label from James Carr, Millie Jackson, Doris Duke, Spencer Wiggins and others. And some high dollar reissues from Intervention Records of Judee Sill's 2 albums on Asylum and today I'm listening to Isaac Hayes classic "Hot Buttered Soul" on 180g from Craft Recordings. Also a bunch of new stuff from the likes of Jason Isbell, Chris Stapleton, Lukas Nelson, Brent Cobb, Pokey LaFarge and some more classics from Jim Ford (Harlan County) and Dan Penn (Nobody's Fool). So that's just a sampling. This is very high quality music.

 

Let me state that I'm not the music audiophile listening snob. I feel my set up is respectable and I just want a wonderful listening experience. Let me state the obvious. Vinyl beats digital by a staggering margin. It's literally a night and day difference. The vinyl sounds warm, pure and real. Then I'll play the same album (from hi-res) through my digital HQ Player setup and it sounds nearly lifeless. The highs are piercing and brittle. It loses a lot of the warmth on the top and bottom end. I was kinda shocked really. I was convinced that my DAC was giving me nearly vinyl quality going through HQPlayer and converted to DSD. I've put the time in to archive everything digitally in the highest quality too. But this is eye and ear opening. No filter. Just vinyl to DAC to FOCAL speakers. It's actually scared me since I don't even want to go back to digital right now. It's such a glaring difference.

 

Here's what I'm wondering. Is there an HQPlayer filter that sounds flat? All of a sudden it all sounds very trebly on the highs. I don't use any kind of equalizer and figured the HQPlayer filter was just giving me a good clean sound. I know I can start testing all the different types of filters too. And I've done a ton of listening with the filter and was perfectly fine with it. That's why I purchased an all digital DAC. But after buying the new turntable and cheap analog to digital converter I'm left thinking, "how do I get digital to sound anywhere near as good as vinyl??".

 

Any thoughts on a HQP flat filter (more analog/vinyl) sounding?  I realize this is opening a can of worms. Not here to debate, I just wanna see what my options are with HQP. In the meantime, I'm stuck listening to vinyl non-stop.

 

You can see my HQP settings attached. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Spencer

 

 

 

  

[Paetrick]

@sdmarquartThis is a complicated topic, since I found out myself that digital audio takes more effort (and money) to get right.

In the past I thought digital should be simpler than analog audio, but now I would say it is the other way round.

First off, just try different filters of HQPlayer and take the one you like most, I'm 99% shure your piercing highs don't come from HQPlayer in any way. There are filters that make the music "softer", but you would just be masking the real problems of digital audio with HQPlayer's filters then. What are the real problems, to me at least:

1. The Computer or Laptop where all starts and HQPlayer works, is an immensely noisy environment.
2. Electrical noise gets transferred over the USB-Cable to your DAC and has a large impact on the sound quality.
3. Digital audio needs good clocks to sound best.

Okay, I would say 1. - 3. are ordered by priority. What can one do about point one? HQPlayer offers a NAA (Network Audio Adapter) endpoint.

This is supposed to run on an isolated machine which doesn't need to be powerful but should be optimized to be electrically silent.

Your desktop version of HQPlayer takes on all the workload and sends the upsampled audio stream data over Ethernet to a NAA device, which just receives the data and transmits it further to the DAC. With that you have separated the ultra noisy audio workstation from your DAC and even added galvanic isolation by using Ethernet. I would also suggest to insert a network switch inbetween which further helps to reduce noise.

What can one do about point two? There are several USB regenerators available which help isolate/clean and reclock the signal before it gets to the DAC. This kind of touches point one and three as well. I would suggest you try to get rid of computer noise at first, which should solve you're problem with the highs. Better clocking helps to refine the sound further but is not as important as isolation in my experience. There is also a software tweak for Windows called Fidelizer which is offered in three different versions. The starter version is free and you can just try if it helps already. The software bundles optimizations which can be done to tune Windows to get out of the way of audio processing, by offering a one-click optimize "everything" solution. It can be configured to run on startup or on demand, either way it is fully reversible and worth a try.

[AnotherSpin]

23 minutes ago, Paetrick said:

@sdmarquartThis is a complicated topic, since I found out myself that digital audio takes more effort (and money) to get right.

In the past I thought digital should be simpler than analog audio, but now I would say it is the other way round.

First off, just try different filters of HQPlayer and take the one you like most, I'm 99% shure your piercing highs don't come from HQPlayer in any way. There are filters that make the music "softer", but you would just be masking the real problems of digital audio with HQPlayer's filters then. What are the real problems, to me at least:

1. The Computer or Laptop where all starts and HQPlayer works, is an immensely noisy environment.
2. Electrical noise gets transferred over the USB-Cable to your DAC and has a large impact on the sound quality.
3. Digital audio needs good clocks to sound best.

Okay, I would say 1. - 3. are ordered by priority. What can one do about point one? HQPlayer offers a NAA (Network Audio Adapter) endpoint.

This is supposed to run on an isolated machine which doesn't need to be powerful but should be optimized to be electrically silent.

Your desktop version of HQPlayer takes on all the workload and sends the upsampled audio stream data over Ethernet to a NAA device, which just receives the data and transmits it further to the DAC. With that you have separated the ultra noisy audio workstation from your DAC and even added galvanic isolation by using Ethernet. I would also suggest to insert a network switch inbetween which further helps to reduce noise.

What can one do about point two? There are several USB regenerators available which help isolate/clean and reclock the signal before it gets to the DAC. This kind of touches point one and three as well. I would suggest you try to get rid of computer noise at first, which should solve you're problem with the highs. Better clocking helps to refine the sound further but is not as important as isolation in my experience. There is also a software tweak for Windows called Fidelizer which is offered in three different versions. The starter version is free and you can just try if it helps already. The software bundles optimizations which can be done to tune Windows to get out of the way of audio processing, by offering a one-click optimize "everything" solution. It can be configured to run on startup or on demand, either way it is fully reversible and worth a try.

 

+ for NAA. It is not difficult to try. Miska's NAA is free, all is needed is second computer which should be booted from USB stick with NAA installed and both computers (server and endpoint) connected through network. If result will be encouraging, upgrade path would require rather merciful budget. 

[sdmarquart]

Thanks guys! Really appreciate the feedback. I understand I'm most likely just hearing digital quite clearly - warts and all. And when something sounds great - like a straight DSD recording, I reap the benefits. I'm happy with my HQPlayer filter and upsampling to DSD.

 

My setup starts with this PC. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CS250v6--sweetwater-custom-computing-cs250-2u-professional-audio-and-video-production-workstation

 

I also have a USB regenerator called "Recovery". This guy. https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/recovery So I feel I'm taking the necessary steps for best digital sound.

 

I need to hear more about NAA. I don't want to have to use another PC as the one I have is quiet and stout. But send some NAA links. Are you talking Micro Rendu? I tried that once, but had continual audio breakups and quickly returned it. My internet is AT&T fiber with 1000 mbps speed. But I'd apprecate any more info.

 

I'm out for the afternoon hiking with a friend. But I'll comment later.

 

Thanks guys. I realize you just can't top good vinyl, but there's always ways to improve digital.

 

Spence

[AnotherSpin]

1 hour ago, sdmarquart said:

Thanks guys! Really appreciate the feedback. I understand I'm most likely just hearing digital quite clearly - warts and all. And when something sounds great - like a straight DSD recording, I reap the benefits. I'm happy with my HQPlayer filter and upsampling to DSD.

 

My setup starts with this PC. https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CS250v6--sweetwater-custom-computing-cs250-2u-professional-audio-and-video-production-workstation

 

I also have a USB regenerator called "Recovery". This guy. https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/recovery So I feel I'm taking the necessary steps for best digital sound.

 

I need to hear more about NAA. I don't want to have to use another PC as the one I have is quiet and stout. But send some NAA links. Are you talking Micro Rendu? I tried that once, but had continual audio breakups and quickly returned it. My internet is AT&T fiber with 1000 mbps speed. But I'd apprecate any more info.

 

I'm out for the afternoon hiking with a friend. But I'll comment later.

 

Thanks guys. I realize you just can't top good vinyl, but there's always ways to improve digital.

 

Spence

 

I came from long years of collecting LPs and appreciate its sound, similar to you. Also wanted my digital set sound alike. You do not need microRendu to try NAA. As I told already, you can flash free Miska's NAA on USB stick. Than you can boot any computer (for trial) with it. Both your quiet and stout computer and NAA trial computer should be in the same ethernet network. DAC should be connected with USB cable to NAA endpoint computer. If you did everything right, HQP desktop will see NAA in the output list. Listen and decide do you like it or not. If yes, you can think about follow-up. You may get one of Sonore or SOtM products, or you may DIY small NUC-type computer which will work with one of the available NAA images, such as free one from Miska or Euphony or Audiolinux – that's what I did. I went this path very recently, and I am not going back to single-computer set as per now. I am not computer-savvy at all, if I did it, anyone would.

[tboooe]

@sdmarquart I suggest you try measuring your room response and try convolution with HQP.  Compare what you are getting with vinyl vs digital.  You can then create filters to use with HQP that mimics what your vinyl setup is giving you. You can use software like REW which is free and buy a decent USB microphone for less than $100.  Room correction was by far the best audio investment I ever did.

[Progisus]

Hi @Miska.Would the new RPi 4 provide better throughput as a NAA using usb to DAC? I am using DietPi as the loader at present.

My favorite filter is closed form - m to PCM at 768k. A direct connection of my computer to dac works great but a pi 3 as NAA stutters. I was hoping the Pi 4 might help.

 

[sdmarquart]

2 hours ago, AnotherSpin said:

As I told already, you can flash free Miska's NAA on USB stick. Than you can boot any computer (for trial) with it. Both your quiet and stout computer and NAA trial computer should be in the same ethernet network. DAC should be connected with USB cable to NAA endpoint computer. If you did everything right, HQP desktop will see NAA in the output list.

 

I'm not quite understanding what this means. What's my quiet computer? I prolly need a video or diagram to show how this all works. I'm not into purchasing another computer.

 

Thanks,

Spence