HQ Player

[asdf1000]

Hi @Miska, for poly-sinc-ext2, manual states "If difference between source and output rates is less than 32x, operates as a single stage with only the first stage."

 

So up-sampling DXD to 44.1x256 kHz (DSD256) is still two (2) stage yes, with ext2 filter?

 

[Miska]

2 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Hi @Miska, for poly-sinc-ext2, manual states "If difference between source and output rates is less than 32x, operates as a single stage with only the first stage."

 

So up-sampling DXD to 44.1x256 kHz (DSD256) is still two (2) stage yes, with ext2 filter?

 

Yes, that's correct... First stage pulls rate to 5.6 MHz and second stage to 11.3 MHz.

 

[asdf1000]

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, that's correct... First stage pulls rate to 5.6 MHz and second stage to 11.3 MHz.

 

 

Thanks! Why is PCM353.kHz (DXD) -> 11.3 MHz up-sampling more CPU intensive than PCM44.1 (RBCD) -> 11.3 MHz? With ext2 filter, ASDM7 modulator.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

Thanks! Why is PCM353.kHz (DXD) -> 11.3 MHz up-sampling more CPU intensive than PCM44.1 (RBCD) -> 11.3 MHz? With ext2 filter, ASDM7 modulator.

 

Because there is more data to process. In first case 352.8 kHz -> 5.6 MHz is processed through the heavy first stage filter. In second case 44.1 kHz -> 705.6 kHz is processed through the heavy first stage filter. Second stage filter is relatively much lighter one to process.

 

[Miska]

I have just updated quick start guide / getting started guide for HQPlayer 4 Desktop:

https://www.signalyst.com/quickstart.html

 

This of course doesn't replace the bundled manual, but it is much shorter version, written in a different way, and from there, it is easier to switch reading the manual. If there seems to be any major omissions, let me know.

 

I hope it can be useful for new users and people switching over to HQPlayer 4. Client part is useful also for HQPlayer 4 Embedded. Note that the Client doesn't need a license key, so it can be used with Desktop/Embedded with their corresponding existing licenses.

 

[Confused]

I have to say that I have been very much enjoying the HQPlayer 4 "loop back" functionality recently.  I am using this on a Windows 10 PC, essentially creating a virtual soundcard.  It works superbly, allowing internet radio, YouTube audio, free Spotify, and anything else I fancy to run audio via NAA to my sMS-200Ultra.  For me, this functionality alone is worth the price of entry.

 

For fun, I tried a comparison between Roon / HQPlayer and running iTunes / Loop back / HQPlayer.  iTunes is set to WASAPI, and I expected the resultant sound quality to be more or less identical.  It wasn't.  Using iTunes / Loopback there was a noticeable step back in resolution and dynamics.  For practical purposes this does not matter, for serious listening I either use Roon or just paste an album direct into HQPlayer, the loop back stuff tends to be background listening or checking out new material prior to purchase.  Plus the margin to Roon is fairly small, it still sounds reasonably good.

 

I presume the slight loss of SQ is down to the fact that the audio path is now running through the Windows mixer, which can only be a negative I guess.  Assuming this is correct, are there any tweaks or settings changes I could make within Windows to improve or optimise the sound quality when using loopback this way?  Any suggestions?

 

 

[4est]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I have to say that I have been very much enjoying the HQPlayer 4 "loop back" functionality recently.  I am using this on a Windows 10 PC, essentially creating a virtual soundcard.  It works superbly, allowing internet radio, YouTube audio, free Spotify, and anything else I fancy to run audio via NAA to my sMS-200Ultra.  For me, this functionality alone is worth the price of entry.

 

For fun, I tried a comparison between Roon / HQPlayer and running iTunes / Loop back / HQPlayer.  iTunes is set to WASAPI, and I expected the resultant sound quality to be more or less identical.  It wasn't.  Using iTunes / Loopback there was a noticeable step back in resolution and dynamics.  For practical purposes this does not matter, for serious listening I either use Roon or just paste an album direct into HQPlayer, the loop back stuff tends to be background listening or checking out new material prior to purchase.  Plus the margin to Roon is fairly small, it still sounds reasonably good.

 

I presume the slight loss of SQ is down to the fact that the audio path is now running through the Windows mixer, which can only be a negative I guess.  Assuming this is correct, are there any tweaks or settings changes I could make within Windows to improve or optimise the sound quality when using loopback this way?  Any suggestions?

 

 

Out of curiosity, when you loopback does the video sync with the audio?

[Confused]

3 minutes ago, 4est said:

Out of curiosity, when you loopback does the video sync with the audio?

No, there is a little bit latency so the audio lags a fraction.

[StreamFidelity]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

I have just updated quick start guide / getting started guide for HQPlayer 4 Desktop:

https://www.signalyst.com/quickstart.html

 

This of course doesn't replace the bundled manual, but it is much shorter version, written in a different way, and from there, it is easier to switch reading the manual. If there seems to be any major omissions, let me know.

 

I hope it can be useful for new users and people switching over to HQPlayer 4. Client part is useful also for HQPlayer 4 Embedded. Note that the Client doesn't need a license key, so it can be used with Desktop/Embedded with their corresponding existing licenses.

 

The quick start guide is really helpful for newcomers.

 

In addition, the HQPlayer client is also very useful for 2-PC solutions, where the HQPlayer 4 Desktop (Server) is running on Audio PC. Until now, I always had to enter the Audio PC remotely, for example to change filters. Now I can do this from the Control PC.

 

[k6davis]

I'm trying out the new EC modulators and they sound great, but wow... you weren't kidding about them being processor intensive.

 

Running an AMD Ryzen 7 2700x, I've had to dial down from 512 to 128!! With that huge output rate discrepancy, I"m hesitant to compare the EC modulators to the older modulators directly. It would be ideal, of course, to hear the new modulators at higher rates.

 

I'm hoping the new 3rd gen Ryzen chips will help, early reviews say they're the most powerful you can buy. I'd be a little surprised if even they can handle EC at 512, but we'll see. 

[rickca]

19 hours ago, Miska said:

The rough CPU load increase compared to earlier ones is 3x.

Does CUDA help with these new EC modulators, or is CUDA only used for filters?  Now that Nvidia has these improved price/performance Super RTX cards, I'm having another look at upgrading.

[Miska]

2 hours ago, rickca said:

Does CUDA help with these new EC modulators, or is CUDA only used for filters?  Now that Nvidia has these improved price/performance Super RTX cards, I'm having another look at upgrading.

 

CUDA doesn't really help directly with modulators due to nature of the algorithms, so only used for filters. But in a way it helps because it helps moving work away from CPU (offloading), freeing resources there.

 

[k6davis]

Miska,

 

I'm looking forward to hearing about what kind of output rates you're able to achieve with the new modulators.

 

I suspect that most people will have to chose between EC at lower rates and older modulators at higher rates. I know we ultimately have to rely on our own ears to decide, but would you say that EC modulators are enough of an improvement that we should lower our output rates to be able to use them?

[Miska]

1 hour ago, k6davis said:

I suspect that most people will have to chose between EC at lower rates and older modulators at higher rates. I know we ultimately have to rely on our own ears to decide, but would you say that EC modulators are enough of an improvement that we should lower our output rates to be able to use them?

 

Going from DSD512 to DSD256 is fine in most cases, if you'd need to go from DSD512 to DSD128, then it is not so straightforward anymore if it is worth it. And you certainly don't want to go down to DSD64.

 

Generally, regardless of modulators, I would say;

DSD64 -> DSD128 is a huge step

DSD128 -> DSD256 is still a big step

DSD256 -> DSD512 is medium to small step

DSD512 -> DSD1024 is small step

 

So you get sort of diminishing returns when you keep increasing the rate. But it is still also largely system dependent, because there are multiple related aspects.

 

[Le Concombre Masqué]

On 7/6/2019 at 10:52 AM, Miska said:

 

I cannot check right now, but I think "top" is there, so if you login as "root" and then run "top" you should see something.

 

@Miska yes it works. I'm surprised by the figures, think it's significantly less than with WS2012 all settings being equal.

 

that makes the temp above thresholds and cpu throttles events more puzzling

 

is there a limit of event counts that I should not pass?

 

@ witmc

WITH 64-bit Intel Mobile Core i7 "Ivy Bridge" (I7-3615QM) processor 

 

OUTPUT SDM 128

 

 

ext2 and xtr lp 2s shine with the new EC.

 

I can't do DSD at all more than a few seconds

 

44 /ext2/ASDM5EC ok (I mean great and it works ; at least a song, haven't tested for hours yet obviously)

96 /xtr lp 2s/ ASDM5EC ok (I mean great and it works ; at least a song, haven't tested for hours yet obviously)

 

have to go DSD5EC for MCH96 and 192 (xtr lp 2s) (I mean great and it works ; at least a song, haven't tested for hours yet obviously)

 

I can't do ASDM7EC at all more than a few seconds

 

Convolution engine is now ADD

 

[k6davis]

AMD's next gen Ryzen 3000 line features a 12 core/24 thread CPU (released today in the US) and a 16 core/32 thread monster (available in September '19).

 

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3405567/ryzen-3000-review-amds-12-core-ryzen-9-3900x.html

 

The new 12 core chip's multi-threaded performance is currently the best on the market by a wide margin, but I'm waiting for the 16 core chip. Hopefully, it can handle upsampling hi-res content to DSD512 with EC modulators with some headroom to spare. 

 

Can we expect that HQP will definitely take advantage of all those cores & threads?

[Miska]

53 minutes ago, k6davis said:

Can we expect that HQP will definitely take advantage of all those cores & threads?

 

Threads are mostly useful for the OS when dealing with context switching between multiple processes, on average they bring about 10% performance gain.

 

There's a limit how much parallelism can be used for modulators, while most filters don't have much limitations. That is also why GPUs are not very good at running modulators, because they are primarily good at doing large number of operations in parallel. For modulators, you need clock frequencies, that's why I use CPUs like i7-7700K and i7-8086K. The new EC modulators can do some amount of parallelism, but not so much. This is also where CUDA comes useful, allowing high speed parallel processing on GPU and high speed "single thread" performance on the CPU in form of high clock speeds (~5 GHz), giving best of both worlds. New Ryzens are also supposed to have good single thread performance as well, unlike earlier models.

 

So generally HQPlayer can utilize large number of CPU cores (HQPlayer avoids using threads, leaving those for the OS). Then the exact number of cores that can be utilized depends on the settings. I will do further tuning when I get my hands on a new Ryzen 9.

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, k6davis said:

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3405567/ryzen-3000-review-amds-12-core-ryzen-9-3900x.html

 

From HQPlayer perspective, the most important parts are improvements in floating point performance, and the massive cache of new Ryzen 9's, which is more than double of Intel's.

 

There's nice amount of benchmarks and info on all relevant sites:

https://hothardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-9-3900x-and-ryzen-7-3700x-zen-2-review

[Hammer]

On 7/6/2019 at 11:07 AM, Confused said:

No, there is a little bit latency so the audio lags a fraction.

 

If using Vlc, there’s an option to adjust the delay so things are back in sync.  A bit of trial and error, but it works!

[Le Concombre Masqué]

Kind of Blue never sounded better to my ears:

 

24/192 mqa-mp/ASDM5EC (can't do 7) via see my sig

 

my recommendations (and it might solve filters choosing predicaments!)

 

in order to keep my cpu in the 25% ballpark (around 40 it stutters, in between I see lots of cpu clock throttles so I might perceive for real hints of harshness)

 

44 ext2/ASDM5EC

 

88 or 96 ps short 2 s either lp or mp (rock etc)/ASDM5EC

 

192 mqa mp/ASDM5EC

 

24/48 is tricky : either ext2/DSD5EC or xtr lp 2s/ASDM5EC load the cpu close to 30%. I think all I have 24/48 is pop rock so I'll probably go mqa mp or short 2s

 

[Le Concombre Masqué]

21 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Threads are mostly useful for the OS when dealing with context switching between multiple processes, on average they bring about 10% performance gain.

 

There's a limit how much parallelism can be used for modulators, while most filters don't have much limitations. That is also why GPUs are not very good at running modulators, because they are primarily good at doing large number of operations in parallel. For modulators, you need clock frequencies, that's why I use CPUs like i7-7700K and i7-8086K. The new EC modulators can do some amount of parallelism, but not so much. This is also where CUDA comes useful, allowing high speed parallel processing on GPU and high speed "single thread" performance on the CPU in form of high clock speeds (~5 GHz), giving best of both worlds. New Ryzens are also supposed to have good single thread performance as well, unlike earlier models.

 

So generally HQPlayer can utilize large number of CPU cores (HQPlayer avoids using threads, leaving those for the OS). Then the exact number of cores that can be utilized depends on the settings. I will do further tuning when I get my hands on a new Ryzen 9.

 

 

Do you expect it should be possible to do convolution and DSD upsampling up to 256 with ext2 and ASDM7EC on a Ryzen (liquid cooled ?) machine WITHOUT CUDA & GPU (Pure Embedded)?

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

Do you expect it should be possible to do convolution and DSD upsampling up to 256 with ext2 and ASDM7EC on a Ryzen (liquid cooled ?) machine WITHOUT CUDA & GPU (Pure Embedded)?

 

I don't know, too early to say... It could need something like dual-socket environment...

 

CUDA can massively help on convolution, etc, so for such cases I think it would be good to use GPU.

[Le Concombre Masqué]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

I don't know, too early to say... It could need something like dual-socket environment...

 

CUDA can massively help on convolution, etc, so for such cases I think it would be good to use GPU.

I'll have to Google dual-socket environment!!

I do love Embedded and IMO and system it beats the other 4 version, Desktop, run on WS2012. Would it ruin its trimmed to the essential design (thus so so good) to open it to GPU capability?

 

I consider the new EC modulors a huge step forward 

 

[Miska]

2 hours ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

I'll have to Google dual-socket environment!!

 

Something like this:

https://www.supermicro.com/en/products/motherboard/X11DAi-N

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/WS-C621E-SAGE/

 

2 hours ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

I do love Embedded and IMO and system it beats the other 4 version, Desktop, run on WS2012. Would it ruin its trimmed to the essential design (thus so so good) to open it to GPU capability?

 

HQPlayer OS doesn't support CUDA, but the package built for Ubuntu Server 18.04 LTS does support CUDA. It would be still quite different from running something big and heavy as OS.

 

[k6davis]

17 minutes ago, Le Concombre Masqué said:

I do love Embedded and IMO and system it beats the other 4 version, Desktop, run on WS2012....

 

I consider the new EC modulors a huge step forward 

 

I have to agree on both counts.

 

Embedded (HQP OS) couldn't be easier to use. Just put it on a USB stick and boot. HQPlayer is available on the network (to Roon & a web browser) as "hqplayer". Boom!! There goes your audiophile optimized OS.

 

And the EC modulators are so nice that I'm dialing my system down from DSD512 to DSD128 to be able listen to them. I can't imagine what they'd sound like at the higher rates. I'll be upgrading my server for that purpose as soon as "we" figure out what CPU is best for the job.

 

Excellent work all around Miska!