HQ Player

[DancingSea]

Lately I’ve had a few albums that HQPlayer refuses to upsample.  They were both PCM, 24/192 AIFF.  HQPlayer would not upsample them to DSD.  It would play them as pcm if I used the Auto setting, but left them at 192 even though the HQPlayer setting is for 352. 

 

This is all in thr Roon/HQPlayer universe. 

 

Roon on its own will upsample the same albums to DSD with no problem. 

 

Amy idea why HQPlayer is refusing to upsample stray albums?

 

Thanks. 

[Miska]

59 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

Lately I’ve had a few albums that HQPlayer refuses to upsample.  They were both PCM, 24/192 AIFF.  HQPlayer would not upsample them to DSD.  It would play them as pcm if I used the Auto setting, but left them at 192 even though the HQPlayer setting is for 352. 

 

This is all in thr Roon/HQPlayer universe. 

 

Roon on its own will upsample the same albums to DSD with no problem. 

 

Amy idea why HQPlayer is refusing to upsample stray albums?

 

If you have Auto rate family enabled and have set max to 352.8k then it means that there's no rates available within the same rate family. 192k with auto rate family would need 384k (192 x 2), but you have cap set at 352.8k.

 

The solution is to either allow 384k (if your DAC supports it), or disable auto rate family to allow conversion from 192k to 352.8k.

[asdf1000]

Hi @Miska

 

With the poly-sinc-short-lp-2s filter, is the 1st stage up-sampling up to PCM384kHz (for PCM source)?

 

If so, what's the reason you don't do 1st stage up-sampling to PCM768kHz?

 

Not that it's relevant, but I saw Rob Watts has a 2 stage up-sampling and the 1st stage is to PCM768kHz.

 

Are there any advantages to that? And would you change your filters to do that?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[Miska]

48 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

With the poly-sinc-short-lp-2s filter, is the 1st stage up-sampling up to PCM384kHz (for PCM source)?

 

It is at minimum 8x.

 

So if your source is 44.1k and output is for example 22.5792 MHz, then the intermediate rate is 352.8k. If your output is 24.576 MHz, then the intermediate rate is 384k.

 

If your source is 192 kHz and output is 22.5792 MHz, then intermediate rate is 2.8224 MHz and if your output is 24.576 MHz then the intermediate rate is 1.536 MHz.

 

If your source is 352.8 kHz and output is 2.8224 MHz, then there's no intermediate rate, only 1st stage.

 

If you use ext2, the intermediate rates are 2x higher.

 

48 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

If so, what's the reason you don't do 1st stage up-sampling to PCM768kHz?

 

Because the intermediate rate is suitable for the second stage already at 8x. And because I never use anything crappy like S/H (ZOH), linear interpolation, simple IIR, or similar for the second stage like many DACs do to save on computing resources.

 

I'm not trading anything on the second stage either, it is just as perfect as the first stage. And of course you can also run poly-sinc-short-lp single stage version always.

 

48 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Not that it's relevant, but I saw Rob Watts has a 2 stage up-sampling and the 1st stage is to PCM768kHz.

 

He has different filter design for the stages, and probably the first stage stays at 768k even if you increase input sampling rate. And when you reach 768k the first stage falls off. In my case output of the first stage keeps moving up as you increase source sampling rate and eventually the second stage falls off.

 

[asdf1000]

Thanks Jussi! 

 

7 minutes ago, Miska said:

He has different filter design for the stages, and probably the first stage stays at 768k even if you increase input sampling rate. And when you reach 768k the first stage falls off. In my case output of the first stage keeps moving up as you increase source sampling rate and eventually the second stage falls off.

 

 

Yes this  is also my understanding of what he does - if you feed PCM705/768k (like his M-Scaler outputs or via HQPlayer via USB for example) to his DACs, then you by-pass his WTA1 (1st stage) filter.

 

[DancingSea]

6 hours ago, Miska said:

 

If you have Auto rate family enabled and have set max to 352.8k then it means that there's no rates available within the same rate family. 192k with auto rate family would need 384k (192 x 2), but you have cap set at 352.8k.

 

The solution is to either allow 384k (if your DAC supports it), or disable auto rate family to allow conversion from 192k to 352.8k.

 

But why won’t it upsample those 24/193 albums to DSD 128 with it set for SDM?

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

But why won’t it upsample those 24/193 albums to DSD 128 with it set for SDM?

 

Do you have "Auto rate family" set?

 

If you DAC doesn't support 48k-base DSD rates and you demand output to be within the same rate family, you cannot do DSD output from any 48k-base PCM rates.

 

So assuming you have either "44.1k x128" or "48k x128" set as limit, making sure "Auto rate family" is disabled should make it work. And again assuming that output format is set to "SDM (DSD)" instead of "Auto".

 

[dc-audiogeek]

2 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Do you have "Auto rate family" set?

 

If you DAC doesn't support 48k-base DSD rates and you demand output to be within the same rate family, you cannot do DSD output from any 48k-base PCM rates.

 

So assuming you have either "44.1k x128" or "48k x128" set as limit, making sure "Auto rate family" is disabled should make it work. And again assuming that output format is set to "SDM (DSD)" instead of "Auto".

 

 

Thanks for your quick response, Jussi! I had the same question as DancingSea.

[DancingSea]

39 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Do you have "Auto rate family" set?

 

If you DAC doesn't support 48k-base DSD rates and you demand output to be within the same rate family, you cannot do DSD output from any 48k-base PCM rates.

 

So assuming you have either "44.1k x128" or "48k x128" set as limit, making sure "Auto rate family" is disabled should make it work. And again assuming that output format is set to "SDM (DSD)" instead of "Auto". 

 

 

Yes, I did have "auto family rate" set because I was trying out someone's preferred settings, even though I didn't really know what "auto family rate" means.

 

Here's a theoretical question.  My DirectStream Junior DAC upsamples everything to DSD 1024.  It does this regardless of what happens upstream.  According to Ted Smith, the DSJ designer, upsampling ahead of time on my Mac doesn't save the DSJ any work as it does what it does regardless. 

 

Given the DAC is upsampling to DSD 1025 regardless, is there any theoretical point in using HQP for PCM --> DSD upsampling?  Is it best to upsample PCM to the max (352) my DAC will allow and leave DSD as its original rate in HQP?

 

Just curious, in theory, how HQP fits into the picture with a DSD upsampling DAC...

 

Thanks

[Miska]

1 minute ago, DancingSea said:

Here's a theoretical question.  My DirectStream Junior DAC upsamples everything to DSD 1024.  It does this regardless of what happens upstream.  According to Ted Smith, the DSJ designer, upsampling ahead of time on my Mac doesn't save the DSJ any work as it does what it does regardless. 

 

Given the DAC is upsampling to DSD 1025 regardless, is there any theoretical point in using HQP for PCM --> DSD upsampling?  Is it best to upsample PCM to the max (352) my DAC will allow and leave DSD as its original rate in HQP?

 

My current thinking is, that with PS DS DACs that do internal DSD upsampling, and with Chord, it is best to send highest supported PCM rate there instead of DSD.

 

If I would have a chance to test DirectStream, I could tell better, but my current strong hunch is that you are better off with PCM output.

 

4 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

Just curious, in theory, how HQP fits into the picture with a DSD upsampling DAC...

 

There's no generalization for these. It largely depends on how the particular DAC deals with DSD. For example with dCS, Playback Designs or Meitner you would be likely better off sending DSD there instead.

 

[jvvita]

My experience with PS Audio DS Dac is that better results comes sending PCM 176 (from 44.1khz sources) or 192 (from 48khz sources).

 

The bass extension is better, and the sound has more weight.

[DancingSea]

17 minutes ago, jvvita said:

My experience with PS Audio DS Dac is that better results comes sending PCM 176 (from 44.1khz sources) or 192 (from 48khz sources).

 

The bass extension is better, and the sound has more weight.

 

Thanks for this.  Jussi, is it possible to set the PCM side of HQP to automatically  make 44.1 sources into 176, and 48khz into 192?  Or must one manually change the setting?

[Quadman]

I encountered a problem today that I have never seen before in HQP and thats with over 3 years using it.  I was on a team viewer session with a friend in NYC he was having issues getting roon with HQP to play music.  He would hit play then the dancing blue bars appeared like it was playing but time counter remained at 0 and HQP timer also stayed at zero.  I couldn't get anything to play.

 

So we reinstalled roon server, HQP and the driver for his singxer SU-1.  Of course we un-installed all programs before doing re-install.  Normally he upsamples all music to DSD512 and doing so successfully until his PC had a few unfortunate on off cycles (no music was playing when this happened).  That also prompted me to re-install programs above.

 

Now when I go to HQPlayer settings I set ASIO for backend, device is Singxer USB driver and set both PCM and SDM filters like this, HQP setting shot, attached.  Then I go to main screen and in drop down below volume knob I select SDM and the filters to the left remain the PCM filters.  Like this shot. When you select a track from roon it plays, HQP plays and the output is PCM 352.8, despite the box under the volume knob saying SDM as photo indicates.  If I switch this box to PCM the filters stay as the PCM (photo attached) and playing a track from roon it outputs PCM 352.8 like it should.  Of course the output zone in roon is HQP and signal path verifies it is handed off to HQP.

 

So why when main HQP screen is set to SDM does HQP output 352.8 PCM.  Before his pc undergone the unfortunate power cycling,  when HQP was set to SDM the output was DSD512.  Any ideas, I'm stumped and have never seen anything like this.  All appears as it should to me.

 

HQP is V3.25.1

Roon is latest and singxer driver is V4.45, windows 10 pro, with fidelizer pro 8.3

 

 

[Miska]

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

Thanks for this.  Jussi, is it possible to set the PCM side of HQP to automatically  make 44.1 sources into 176, and 48khz into 192?  Or must one manually change the setting?

 

"Auto rate family" does that, but it applies equally to both PCM and DSD outputs. You also need to set rate limit to higher of the two, so 192k in this case.

 

But technically, for PCM I would keep 192k output whenever possible because the difference in CPU load too  is so minimal. Some filters that cannot convert between rate families will enforce that rule in any case.

 

[Miska]

20 minutes ago, Quadman said:

Now when I go to HQPlayer settings I set ASIO for backend, device is Singxer USB driver and set both PCM and SDM filters like this, HQP setting shot, attached.  Then I go to main screen and in drop down below volume knob I select SDM and the filters to the left remain the PCM filters.  Like this shot. When you select a track from roon it plays, HQP plays and the output is PCM 352.8, despite the box under the volume knob saying SDM as photo indicates.

 

This happens if the driver says it supports DSD but then refuses to switch over when asked to...

 

There is some problem between HQPlayer <-> ASIO driver <-> DAC. I've seen so far one report here on this forum for driver problems with Win10 1809 update.

 

[Quadman]

6 minutes ago, Miska said:

There is some problem between HQPlayer <-> ASIO driver <-> DAC. I've seen so far one report here on this forum for driver problems with Win10 1809 update.

 

 

Thanks Jussi, any ideas on best method to solve.  I did not check if his windows is 1809 or 1803.  Just un-install Driver, reboot and re-download it and install again and hope.  Maybe try 3.25.2.  He did just add an isoregen to the chain at the singxer, can't imagine that being a problem I use one too and never had issues.

[Miska]

1 hour ago, Quadman said:

Thanks Jussi, any ideas on best method to solve.  I did not check if his windows is 1809 or 1803.  Just un-install Driver, reboot and re-download it and install again and hope.  Maybe try 3.25.2.  He did just add an isoregen to the chain at the singxer, can't imagine that being a problem I use one too and never had issues.

 

Just remove the extra gadgets between computer and DAC and use standard USB HiSpeed certified cable (costs like $10).

 

Also make sure that DAC is powered up and USB input selected before starting HQPlayer.

 

The way ASIO drivers work is that they can be loaded by the application if they are installed, even if the device is not plugged in / recognized. But only when you try to use the device it will fail, at latest when you attempt to start playback.

 

[jvvita]

3 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

Thanks for this.  Jussi, is it possible to set the PCM side of HQP to automatically  make 44.1 sources into 176, and 48khz into 192?  Or must one manually change the setting?

And don't forget to upgrade to Snowmass. Ted has worked his magic once again. Huge difference. 

[cat6man]

What is the current best practice for integrating Qobuz (or Tidal) into HQP?

I'm using HQPDcontrol as my control point and an ultraRendu as my NAA.

[Quadman]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

The way ASIO drivers work is that they can be loaded by the application if they are installed, even if the device is not plugged in / recognized. But only when you try to use the device it will fail, at latest when you attempt to start playback.

 

Thanks Jussi.  we'll get it sorted out with this advice.

[asdf1000]

On 1/20/2019 at 2:10 AM, Miska said:

For example based on this they are fairly close in multi-core performance, while Intel leads in single core performance:

https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/2063

https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/2128

 

For HQP Embedded, is multi-core performance more important? Or both single and MC performance equally important?

For example, when trying to up-sample PCM44.1kHz to non-2s DSD512 poly-sinc filters.

 

Assuming there's no GPU CUDA offloading help.

 

Edit: just saw an older post in this thread explaining this. Both important.

 

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, cat6man said:

What is the current best practice for integrating Qobuz (or Tidal) into HQP?

I'm using HQPDcontrol as my control point and an ultraRendu as my NAA.

 

Is this HQPlayer Desktop or Embedded? For Desktop, currently only option is Roon for playing Tidal. For Embedded there are other possibilities too.

 

If you have Embedded, do you have other computers in the network?

[asdf1000]

On 1/18/2019 at 7:28 AM, Miska said:

 

For long time I've been using poly-sinc-short-mp for rock/pop kind of music and poly-sinc-lp for classical. And ASDM7 as modulator.

 

Now recently I've been running quite a lot with newer poly-sinc-ext2 and ASDM7.

 

 

Does poly-sinc-ext2 have similar time domain performance as poly-sinc-xtr?

 

And stop-band attenuation?

 

[Miska]

34 minutes ago, Em2016 said:

Does poly-sinc-ext2 have similar time domain performance as poly-sinc-xtr?

 

And stop-band attenuation?

 

Yes, they are very similar, yet different.

 

ext2 is >240 dB stop-band attenuation.

 

[cat6man]

10 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Is this HQPlayer Desktop or Embedded? For Desktop, currently only option is Roon for playing Tidal. For Embedded there are other possibilities too.

 

If you have Embedded, do you have other computers in the network?

 

 

Embedded running on a NUC, bionic beaver.

 

All home PC's are ubuntu/bionic.......and looking for non-roon solution

 

edit:  should probably move to Embedded thread.