HQ Player

[Miska]

38 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

It would be helpful if the HQP interface was more user friendly.  I utilize Roon's headroom management because its so easy to implement.

 

HQP sounds great, but the interface is antiquated at this point....

 

I just feel that Roon has copied that from HQPlayer... If you set HQPlayer volume control to the same setting as Roon's "headroom management" you gain the same result. Alternatively you can set maximum volume in HQPlayer to same value as you have in Roon as "headroom management". So it is even easier to implement, without going through multiple layers of menus (max two clicks get you everywhere). In addition to that, HQPlayer also provides gain compensation for convolution that gets also switched in/out at the same time you switch in/out the convolution filter on the fly making it easier to compare the effect - straight from the main window.

 

However, HQPlayer never clips, because there's always built-in soft limiter. Limiter getting activated is indicated in two ways 1) "Limited" counter incrementing and 2) volume knob turning red.

 

HQPlayer's desktop interface is designed to be lightweight to render, with minimal eyecandy to keep GPU loads low, for example when you are utilizing GPU for DSP. The alternative full-screen/touch interface is more heavy to render while still being light, but flicks and other transitions can tax the GPU (or swiping the cover flow to high scrolling speed).

 

P.S. The HQPlayer's interface is much less antiquated than what for example macOS has for everything...

 

[DancingSea]

16 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I just feel that Roon has copied that from HQPlayer... If you set HQPlayer volume control to the same setting as Roon's "headroom management" you gain the same result. Alternatively you can set maximum volume in HQPlayer to same value as you have in Roon as "headroom management". So it is even easier to implement, without going through multiple layers of menus (max two clicks get you everywhere). In addition to that, HQPlayer also provides gain compensation for convolution that gets also switched in/out at the same time you switch in/out the convolution filter on the fly making it easier to compare the effect - straight from the main window.

 

However, HQPlayer never clips, because there's always built-in soft limiter. Limiter getting activated is indicated in two ways 1) "Limited" counter incrementing and 2) volume knob turning red.

 

HQPlayer's desktop interface is designed to be lightweight to render, with minimal eyecandy to keep GPU loads low, for example when you are utilizing GPU for DSP. The alternative full-screen/touch interface is more heavy to render while still being light, but flicks and other transitions can tax the GPU (or swiping the cover flow to high scrolling speed).

 

P.S. The HQPlayer's interface is much less antiquated than what for example macOS has for everything...

 

 

I see, thanks.   I use HQP with Roon and the HQP volume knob is always red.  Are you suggesting that I can ignore the Roon clipping indicator since HQP will automatically take care of any clipping?  With Roon, if I see the indicator turn red, I manually adjust the headroom in the DSP engine.  I know, you recommend turning the Roon DSP engine off, but I'm hooked on its EQ as well, please forgive

 

By antiquated, I'm referring to HQP's old school interface.  Nearly all of the other players have moved forward to a more up to date, non Finder like interface.  As a less technical type of user, I prefer the Roon like interface.  I could care less about Roon's meta data magazine features, and even less about its price.  But I like its easy access to DSP functions, and for how it presents my library mixed with Tidal.

 

I continue to hope one of the other players (A+, Amarra, etc), including my current favorite, HQP, can give us Roon's user friendliness and functionality without the silly subscription model... I pay for Roon because I feel like I have to, not because I feel good about the deal they provide...

[Miska]

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

I see, thanks.   I use HQP with Roon and the HQP volume knob is always red.  Are you suggesting that I can ignore the Roon clipping indicator since HQP will automatically take care of any clipping?  With Roon, if I see the indicator turn red, I manually adjust the headroom in the DSP engine.  I know, you recommend turning the Roon DSP engine off, but I'm hooked on its EQ as well, please forgive

 

Then you have sort of a mess and need to do both, headroom management at Roon side and possibly at HQPlayer side too. Roon's indicator likely doesn't tell anything what is going on at HQPlayer side (it could though).

 

I just see it more complex if you need to go to Roon's DSP settings to make the adjustment if you see the indicator going red. With HQPlayer you just turn down the volume knob if you see it going red, no need to hassle into any menus.

 

1 hour ago, DancingSea said:

By antiquated, I'm referring to HQP's old school interface.  Nearly all of the other players have moved forward to a more up to date, non Finder like interface.  As a less technical type of user, I prefer the Roon like interface.  I could care less about Roon's meta data magazine features, and even less about its price.  But I like its easy access to DSP functions, and for how it presents my library mixed with Tidal.

 

Let's not mix looks with functionality. HQPlayer's "old school interface" is themeable and indeed looks different on different platforms, trying to look "native" on each platform. But the looks don't have anything to do with functionality.

 

And of course, for dealing with library, HQPlayer has the two different interfaces, plus third-party ones like HQPDcontrol, muso and Alchemy in addition to Roon and HQPlayer's own two interfaces.

[DancingSea]

1 hour ago, Miska said:

 

Then you have sort of a mess and need to do both, headroom management at Roon side and possibly at HQPlayer side too. Roon's indicator likely doesn't tell anything what is going on at HQPlayer side (it could though).

 

I just see it more complex if you need to go to Roon's DSP settings to make the adjustment if you see the indicator going red. With HQPlayer you just turn down the volume knob if you see it going red, no need to hassle into any menus.

 

 

Let's not mix looks with functionality. HQPlayer's "old school interface" is themeable and indeed looks different on different platforms, trying to look "native" on each platform. But the looks don't have anything to do with functionality.

 

And of course, for dealing with library, HQPlayer has the two different interfaces, plus third-party ones like HQPDcontrol, muso and Alchemy in addition to Roon and HQPlayer's own two interfaces.

 

Yes, HQP is very functional.  But to the unwashed masses, the interface could use refinement, and with that, more market share for you.  But you're probably all set in your Lapland mansion and don't need to sell yet more of HQP

 

Per your suggestion, I have the HQP volume set at -3 and 0.  With or without Roon, and even with no music playing, the HQP volume knob is always red and there's no way to adjust it.  To shift my headroom adjusting from Roon to HQP, do I need to set a wider volume range in the HQP preferences?

 

And is it possible to adjust the HQP headroom in real time with Roon, or do I have to stop the music first?

[jimdukey]

I think it's -3 and -3, not 0.

[Nikhil]

7 hours ago, Miska said:

HQPlayer's "old school interface" is themeable

 

Sorry for the OT but this is interesting!    Where are these themes available?

 

 

 

[firedog]

10 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

It would be helpful if the HQP interface was more user friendly.  I utilize Roon's headroom management because its so easy to implement.

 

HQP sounds great, but the interface is antiquated at this point....

Well if you have Roon and want to use HQP, Roon takes care of almost all the UI issues you might have.

 

I think most users have one or two settings in HQP they prefer and they use them. If you aren't constantly switching the settings, HQP can basically be left running and ignored. Then you just use Roon for the UI. And changing a filter or modulator in HQP isn't really that big a deal. 

 

I can understand the complaints about the UI if iHQP is your main interface, but not when you also have Roon.

[DancingSea]

2 hours ago, jimdukey said:

I think it's -3 and -3, not 0.

 

Is -3 and -3 the correct setting for using the DAC's volume control?

 

I thought for sure it was -3 and 0.  But I could be mistaken.

[Confused]

11 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Then you should run those in HQPlayer instead so that Roon becomes bit-perfect...

This is interesting.  I have only recently started experimenting with Room correction convolutions.  I have been trying some "HAF" convolutions produced by "Home Audio Fidelity".  They can produce the convolutions for Roon, HQPlayer and others.  I typically run Roon into HQPlayer, and when I got my first convolutions I asked Home Audio Fidelity if it was best to have them in Roon or HQPlayer.  The answer was something along the lines of "it is easier to have them in Roon, particularly if you are switching sample rates, but we can do them for HQPlayer if you want."  I went the easy route and took the Roon compatible convolutions.

 

That said, the key thing that interests me is performance and sound quality.  So this takes me to a new question, when running Roon to HQPlayer does having the convolution in Roon have a performance disadvantage / sound quality penalty versus running Roon bit-perfect to feed HQPlayer, and having the convolutions, headroom management, upsampling etc. all in HQPlayer?  I am already running both Roon and HQPlayer, so I am simply looking for the absolute optimum set-up.  For the record, I am currently getting best results in my system upsampling to 192kHz PCM, if this has any relevance to the answer above.

[sixman]

I did this comparison with HAF xtalk reduction filters. Iam upsampling to dsd256 though, not sure if dsd upsampling makes a difference or not. But running the filters in pipeline matrix in hqp-naa sounded much better to me than running the filters and upsampling and outputting from roon-roonbridge.

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Nikhil said:

Sorry for the OT but this is interesting!    Where are these themes available?

 

The ones that are used are built into the GUI toolkit, but you can make your owns if you want. For the fullscreen/touch interface you can reimplement the entire interface yourself if you like to.

 

Here you have find more info about theming the desktop GUI and how to switch styles:

https://doc.qt.io/archives/qt-5.6/qstyle.html

 

[Miska]

9 hours ago, DancingSea said:

Yes, HQP is very functional.  But to the unwashed masses, the interface could use refinement, and with that, more market share for you.  But you're probably all set in your Lapland mansion and don't need to sell yet more of HQP

 

Ahh, no Lapland for me, I rather go somewhere south...

Since my time is limited, it is more question how much time I should put in creating eye candy vs how much time I should put in sound quality. And should I potentially trade sound quality for eye candy (more CPU/GPU intensive GUI).

 

Certainly at some point I will reimplement the HQPlayer Desktop GUI, but now it has been more or less that way for almost 10 years.

 

The alternate option is now HQPlayer Embedded, without any other GUI except simple web interface to set configuration parameters. So sort of opposite direction. If you use Roon or a mobile app for control, or use UPnP, you don't need more.

 

9 hours ago, DancingSea said:

Per your suggestion, I have the HQP volume set at -3 and 0.  With or without Roon, and even with no music playing, the HQP volume knob is always red and there's no way to adjust it.  To shift my headroom adjusting from Roon to HQP, do I need to set a wider volume range in the HQP preferences?

 

You mean min=-3 max=0? If you have disabled "DirectSDM" or you output PCM you can then adjust volume. If you output SDM and you have "DirectSDM" enabled, then there's fixed headroom setting of about -3 dB in use and you cannot adjust it from the volume knob.

 

9 hours ago, DancingSea said:

And is it possible to adjust the HQP headroom in real time with Roon, or do I have to stop the music first?

 

Yes, at least when you have Roon's DSP disabled, the volume control in Roon adjusts HQPlayer's volume.

 

[juanitox]

On 7/1/2018 at 2:55 PM, Miska said:

 

Different filter, different initialization algorithm... Also the conversion ratio is different which also has impact on initialization time. This is totally different from the amount of CPU time it takes when running the filter.

 

2 minutes sound like quite long time, what kind of CPU do you have?

 

what will be the minimum GPU config to get polysync XTR 512 working with my I7 6700K PC , 

cheap and "silent" if possible ?

[Miska]

17 minutes ago, juanitox said:

what will be the minimum GPU config to get polysync XTR 512 working with my I7 6700K PC , 

cheap and "silent" if possible ?

 

I'm not aware of any, but the most likely candidate is Titan V (someone needs to test it first!). Probably not something most would consider "cheap" nor "silent"...

https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/titan/titan-v/

 

If Nvidia doesn't again cripple it's upcoming Volta-based 20-series gaming cards for these type of computations (to sell more expensive variants), those could potentially be it. I'm expecting them to release the new family during Q3. So I think best thing to do now is just wait...

[juanitox]

thanks Miska , is there a new CPU capable to play it alone ?

[DancingSea]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

Well if you have Roon and want to use HQP, Roon takes care of almost all the UI issues you might have.

 

I think most users have one or two settings in HQP they prefer and they use them. If you aren't constantly switching the settings, HQP can basically be left running and ignored. Then you just use Roon for the UI. And changing a filter or modulator in HQP isn't really that big a deal. 

 

I can understand the complaints about the UI if iHQP is your main interface, but not when you also have Roon.

 

I want to escape Roon and only use Roon because of the HQP GUI.....

[Miska]

1 hour ago, juanitox said:

thanks Miska , is there a new CPU capable to play it alone ?

 

I have the "old" i7 6950X. I think @louisxiawei had something newer...

 

[jimdukey]

Miska told me about the -3 -3 Vol Setting.

The Red Circle will disappear.

[Confused]

7 hours ago, sixman said:

I did this comparison with HAF xtalk reduction filters. Iam upsampling to dsd256 though, not sure if dsd upsampling makes a difference or not. But running the filters in pipeline matrix in hqp-naa sounded much better to me than running the filters and upsampling and outputting from roon-roonbridge.

Thanks, good to know.  I was advised on another forum that the HAF convolutions sound better in HQPlayer, rather than in Roon feeding HQPlayer, this was from someone with a very similar system to myself, upsampling to PCM.

 

So we have a small consensus on the subjective view, I was wondering if there is a sound technical reason for this?  Does anyone know?

[firedog]

23 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

I want to escape Roon and only use Roon because of the HQP GUI.....

Okay,so have you tried one of the external GUI’s written for HQP?

[mtcs]

28 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

 

I want to escape Roon and only use Roon because of the HQP GUI.....

It seems to me that there are plenty of good options for GUI. Personally, I'm very happy using the Roon/HPQe solution. I hope Miska continues to focus on improving SQ.

[Jamesroy]

I have been using SOX filter setting with A+ and sound good. No more highs too high.

[DancingSea]

1 hour ago, mtcs said:

It seems to me that there are plenty of good options for GUI. Personally, I'm very happy using the Roon/HPQe solution. I hope Miska continues to focus on improving SQ.

 

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Okay,so have you tried one of the external GUI’s written for HQP?

 

For the most part, I like Roon quite a bit.  I wish in playlists, they would allow album and artist views, instead of only track views. 

 

The price is extreme. I’d gladly buy Roon for a normal price, like $100, and give up the meta data subscription. 

 

I have not tried, or ever heard of, the HQPlayer skins.  I like having an easy to use equalizer, something Amarra, JRiver and Audirvana all allow for.  I find the convolution engine to be unnecessarily, well, convoluted. 

 

Do the hqp skins provide a dsp eq?

[DancingSea]

8 hours ago, Miska said:

 

Ahh, no Lapland for me, I rather go somewhere south...

Since my time is limited, it is more question how much time I should put in creating eye candy vs how much time I should put in sound quality. And should I potentially trade sound quality for eye candy (more CPU/GPU intensive GUI).

 

Certainly at some point I will reimplement the HQPlayer Desktop GUI, but now it has been more or less that way for almost 10 years.

 

The alternate option is now HQPlayer Embedded, without any other GUI except simple web interface to set configuration parameters. So sort of opposite direction. If you use Roon or a mobile app for control, or use UPnP, you don't need more.

 

 

You mean min=-3 max=0? If you have disabled "DirectSDM" or you output PCM you can then adjust volume. If you output SDM and you have "DirectSDM" enabled, then there's fixed headroom setting of about -3 dB in use and you cannot adjust it from the volume knob.

 

 

Yes, at least when you have Roon's DSP disabled, the volume control in Roon adjusts HQPlayer's volume.

 

 

Thanks Miska. To clarify, when using the DAC volume, what is your recommended HQPlayer volume setting?

[Miska]

26 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

Thanks Miska. To clarify, when using the DAC volume, what is your recommended HQPlayer volume setting?

 

Low enough that "Limited" counter stays zero. -3 dBFS is a good starting point, but in the end it depends on your filter selection and source material. I have content where -3 dBFS is not enough, but that is quite rare in the end.

 

32 minutes ago, DancingSea said:

Do the hqp skins provide a dsp eq?

 

Themes/skins/styles provide look-and-feel, but they cannot change the functionality, only how things are presented / look like.