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5 hours ago, sgr said:

I’ve not found that to be true. I have Ultrarendu as NAA and use two PCs one as file server and the other running HQPlayer. 

 

Every improvement I’ve made in the chain before the NAA just makes the overall sound much better. Things like lps-1, FMC and fiber, WSY2K12 and 16, the AudiophileOptimizer, Fidelizer, linear power supplies to power the pc and SSD drives, Elfidelity tweaks, Aurios under the PCs, Ethernet cables all contribute to making a System sound awesome. 

 

One of the points with NAA using networking technology is that you can use optical Ethernet to give maximum isolation between everything else and the NAA. You don't need to have optical networking on your HQPlayer computer, but you can have it between your switch and NAA - many bigger switches have option for one or two optical ports using SFP module slots. Having a NAA hardware with SFP slot insted of fixed copper Ethernet connector would be actually great because that would easy switching different physical connections.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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4 hours ago, Sevenfeet said:

And optical Ethernet isn't necessary (and expensive).  If you're getting a lot of EMI interference that affecting your data on your LAN, you have much bigger problems.

 

For a computer connecting to a DAC this is not about something affecting the data. This about something affecting the D/A step inside the DAC. This is analog process and very sensitive with way over 100 dB SNR requirement. If you use for example USB to connect your DAC to a computer (be it NAA or HQPlayer directly) you frequently have galvanic connection here, including ground path from the computer device to the DAC and that ground path likely continues to the PSU and audio ground inside the DAC. Any noisy ground current there also creates noise in the analog DAC output. This is all measurable. Details depend on DAC in question and the overall system setup. For this very reason, copper ethernet cables used to connect to a NAA must be unshielded (UTP), because otherwise a shielded network cable will once again connect the ground and break the isolation Ethernet would otherwise provide... Copper Ethernet provides transformer isolation, so you get galvanic isolation and no ground connection (again when using UTP cables). This is also where optical Ethernet also comes into play, because by definition there cannot be any ground currents or RFI/EMI conduction over optical links so it gives the last drop of guaranteed isolation.

 

In a networked system all this matters only to the last step - the one connecting to the DAC. Network is the barrier here (when used as intended/designed). That is one of the primary reasons why NAA exists.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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4 hours ago, Sevenfeet said:

The world of technology you depend on for your data every day will also transport your audio data around the world, into your house and to your DAC precisely every time.

 

Problem here is the DAC part and precisely the point where D/A conversion happens, the step from digital to analog. And how to isolate that step and the analog path from rest of the world.

 

But a lot depends on the DAC. I don't have all my DACs behind a NAA. Only some of them. Partially also because many of my HQPlayer computers are built to be only HQPlayer computers with extra care and many DACs are directly connected to those computers. For example Gigabyte makes nice motherboards with special low noise "DAC-UP" USB ports where you can also shut off the +5V feed from BIOS settings (if wanted).

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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8 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

Then you might be also able to tell us when does Tidal stream the best SQ during a day? IOW, can you tell any SQ difference if any changes on the Tidal server side?

 

NAA is the key device before the DAC. Optical Ethernet route before NAA is good approach for preventing EMI/RFI. 

 

My HQ PC is located in a different place from NAA with quite a long distance, and I can detect no difference whatsoever changing any things on HQ PC side.

 

BTW, I was also a fidelizer user and now I quit using it on HQ PC.

That software could improve the performance when you just want to use your PC solely for audio since it shut down lots of background services, but other features like “core-isolation” totally messed up with HQplayer and other software, games either causing HQPlayer stutter or frame stutter during gaming... and I will not encourage one to use fidelizer on HQ pc if the performance of your PC is not at the edge.

 

First I’m replying in general to all those who are close minded and perhaps won’t give ideas a try. As far as Tidal goes, I’m a fan. I subscribe to the premium package. The convenience is not open for debate. 

 

But it while the sound quality is very good, no matter how I’d like to despence with my PCs and library, I’ve found the sound quality of Tidal does not compete sonically with the sever and audio pc in my system. Other guests have heard the same many times. 

 

The reaction to my post feels like the “jRiver” crew is alive and well. 

 

I do use Fidelizer with HQPlayer and I don’t have any trouble, really. 

 

I also use my PCs for Audio only. No games. So I have no experience there. I’d bet that playing any game will alter the  sound quality while playing music 

I’d play games on a different PC. Why wouldn’t it, using virus protectors and other similar programs are not recommended by many as they can cause more stress to the PC and effect sound quality?

 

An analogy might be appropriate.  A phono stage would be much like an NAA. It is the last ‘box’ in the chain. According to the NAA philosophy I could just purchase an Audio Research phono stage and a $200 table and cartridge because the phono stage fixes everything. Hmmm. 

 

I kinda figured my post would merit a response but I still wanted to put it out there so others could see and try. 

 

If one one claimed their audio system sounded better played during a “Blue Moon” I might be skeptical but I’ve seen and heard some strange things so I’d never say never until I tried it. 

 

Oh, forgot to mention NAAs don’t all sound the same. ?

 

Sorry for any any confusion and consternation but I’m deaf in one ear and can’t hear out the other so please forgive my audio transgressions. ?

 

 

 

SteVe's V's

 

Speakers- Legacy Audio Vs & 2 Legacy LF Extreme Subwoofers, Amplifiers- 2 Coda 15.5 Amplifiers Biamped, Preamp- TRL Dude, DAC- Lampizator Golden Gate Legacy Audio WaveletPC Software-ROON, HQplayer, jPlay, Fidelizer, AudiophileOptimizer 2.10, jRiver, WSY2K12V2 Roon Server PC- , HqPlayer PC- Turntable- SOTA Sapphire, Sumiko FT3 Arm, Audioquest Cartridge, CODA Phono stage, Accessories- HAL Footers, PS Audio Powerbases, Aurios, HiFi Tuning Supreme Fuses, Power- PurePower+ 2000 & 3000, PS Audio: Powerbases, LAN Rover, Noise Harvester, Quintet, Ultimate Outlets HC, Welborne Labs & HdPlex LPSUs,

Cables- Clarus Crimson USB, Lampizator Silver Ghost USB, Clarus Crimson PC, Western Electric 10 gauge DIY Speaker Cables and Best-Tronics Belden 8402 Balanced Interconnects Equipment Racks- SolidSteel

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2 hours ago, sgr said:

An analogy might be appropriate.  A phono stage would be much like an NAA. It is the last ‘box’ in the chain. According to the NAA philosophy I could just purchase an Audio Research phono stage and a $200 table and cartridge because the phono stage fixes everything. Hmmm. 

 

With this analogy, HQPlayer is the vinyl you play. Everything else is on the NAA side.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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22 minutes ago, Miska said:

the

While my analogy might not be perfect I was trying to point out that by insisting the NAA cannot be influenced by players, software, servers, hardware and so on before it that is like saying the phonostage sound quality is not influenced by the cartridge, interconnects, turntable, etc before it. 

Of course all components before the phono stage influence the sound (In this case I’m connecting my phonostsgr directly to the amps as some can do without  the preamp.) 

 

So of course optimizing the sound and signal before the NAA  only makes sense. The NAA is only as magical as the components before allow it to be. 

 

I wanttd to so believe after reading about the NAA that the PC or equipment before the NAA would not matter. Buy a PC from Old Egg of necessary speed and storage and one is done. But that’s not what I’ve heard and found to be true.

 

I don’t listen alone and have quite a panel of listeners who come over often and familiar with my system. They concur with my findings. 

 

That’s ok but don’t expect the best possible. 

 

I’m not debating further I enjoy HQPlayer and ROON. But this insistence concerning the NAA reminds me of jRiver and jPlay. Bits are bits and nothing effects the bits. 

 

Exactly why I no longer use jRiver. 

 

SteVe's V's

 

Speakers- Legacy Audio Vs & 2 Legacy LF Extreme Subwoofers, Amplifiers- 2 Coda 15.5 Amplifiers Biamped, Preamp- TRL Dude, DAC- Lampizator Golden Gate Legacy Audio WaveletPC Software-ROON, HQplayer, jPlay, Fidelizer, AudiophileOptimizer 2.10, jRiver, WSY2K12V2 Roon Server PC- , HqPlayer PC- Turntable- SOTA Sapphire, Sumiko FT3 Arm, Audioquest Cartridge, CODA Phono stage, Accessories- HAL Footers, PS Audio Powerbases, Aurios, HiFi Tuning Supreme Fuses, Power- PurePower+ 2000 & 3000, PS Audio: Powerbases, LAN Rover, Noise Harvester, Quintet, Ultimate Outlets HC, Welborne Labs & HdPlex LPSUs,

Cables- Clarus Crimson USB, Lampizator Silver Ghost USB, Clarus Crimson PC, Western Electric 10 gauge DIY Speaker Cables and Best-Tronics Belden 8402 Balanced Interconnects Equipment Racks- SolidSteel

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Sometimes it's pointless arguing. Some people just want to believe what they want to believe.

 

I've seen this kind of discussion about "NAA upstream" many times (on both eastern and western side). Reasonable explanations are made every time and being ignored/twisted understood every time. 

 

 

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp, RTX 3090; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100 powered by Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

Rack: HRS SXR signature

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3 hours ago, DancingSea said:

Is there a more detailed description than the HQP manual regarding what HQP filters do?  Specifically the DSD settings, the various version of poly-sinc, the modulators, etc.

 

What kind of explanation are you after? If you have some specific question in mind, I can try to answer it.

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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2 hours ago, Miska said:

 

What kind of explanation are you after? If you have some specific question in mind, I can try to answer it.

 

Moi Miska,

 

My primary interest is for the SDM (DSD) settings, and even for the PCM settings, it would be helpful to have a chart, like you have, but with less technical explanations - and instead explanations that explain the sound.  When I read the explanations in the manual, I usually am more confused than I was before ;)

 

For instance, if you read a review in Stereophile or TAS, they use an extensive sonic vocabulary that is relatively non-technical.  It would be helpful to read an entire list of all the HQP options written in that vein.  Yes, I can adjust the settings and listen for myself, but I like having guidance of what to listen for.....

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9 hours ago, sgr said:

While my analogy might not be perfect I was trying to point out that by insisting the NAA cannot be influenced by players, software, servers, hardware and so on before it that is like saying the phonostage sound quality is not influenced by the cartridge, interconnects, turntable, etc before it. 

Of course all components before the phono stage influence the sound (In this case I’m connecting my phonostsgr directly to the amps as some can do without  the preamp.) 

 

So of course optimizing the sound and signal before the NAA  only makes sense. The NAA is only as magical as the components before allow it to be. 

 

I wanttd to so believe after reading about the NAA that the PC or equipment before the NAA would not matter. Buy a PC from Old Egg of necessary speed and storage and one is done. But that’s not what I’ve heard and found to be true.

 

I don’t listen alone and have quite a panel of listeners who come over often and familiar with my system. They concur with my findings. 

 

That’s ok but don’t expect the best possible. 

 

I’m not debating further I enjoy HQPlayer and ROON. But this insistence concerning the NAA reminds me of jRiver and jPlay. Bits are bits and nothing effects the bits. 

 

Exactly why I no longer use jRiver. 

 

Hi @sgr, I whole heartly agree with you. You have made the analogy similar to what I want to provide. This is the reason why I had mentioned in my following post earlier:

 

 

It would not be very meaningful to distinguish or even argue on which one of the two is the most important. If any of you or @westside are really an audiophile, would you after getting an excellent loudspeaker, and then leave all the other improvement work on upstream components of the HiFi gear untouched (e.g. power amplifier, pre-amplifier, DAC, and etc.)?

 

Well, if this is the case, then you may keep on pursuing in this question. If not, another case that I can think of that may render your question meaningful is that you may want to set priority in your upgrading work. If that's the case, then I will suggest you to pay more attention to the NAA in this case, since its importance is of no doubt. Further than that, it will be your own choice to decide whether to try the upgrading/optimization work on the server PC and/or even other components in the chain or not. After all, it is an hobby to enjoy rather than to argue. Is it correct?

 

Hope this have been of help to you. Cheers!

 

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9 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

Sometimes it's pointless arguing. Some people just want to believe what they want to believe.

 

I've seen this kind of discussion about "NAA upstream" many times (on both eastern and western side). Reasonable explanations are made every time and being ignored/twisted understood every time. 

 

 

Exactly...

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I Agree.. I am also of the opinion that everything matters. The NAA while it does insulate the upstream from the DAC, it suffices to say that the isolation can never be perfect.

My personal journey has been gradual upgrading of my HQPlayer i7 6700k PC. 

Noisy beast ain't it even with a top grade SMPS Corsair AX 760. 

SQ improvements are all gradual but definite - Not crazy imagination of a sleep deprived Audiophile (Me!!)

1. Filtering - Big fan of Elfidelity - PCie Mobo filters (twin), PC case fan filters (2 units)

modded the wiring of this filter and manage to fit it to the CPU fan (PWM signals still direct to Mobo fan header but power and earth filtered thru the filter pcb), DRAM DDR4 filters in 2 RAM slots (2x16gb and 2 Elfidelity DDR4 filters)

Sata III filter on my HDD, and on my 120gb SSD for the Win 10 Pro OS.

Great Sound- I use Fidelizer Pro 8.1, Process Lasso, stopped as many processes I can in TaskMgr ---- Good SQ through a Quad Core fanless minipc as NAA to Isoregen and iFi iDSD BL to DSD512 upsampling (xtr -2s)

2. So I thought try Win Server 2016 and intel X25-E Sata II SSD with SOTM Sata II filter with Audiophile Optimizer. Went GUI mode first then Core Mode (Definite SQ jump) 

3. Added in-line anti-ripple capacitors to my Corsair EPS, ATX 24 pin and PCie cables. 

4. SHAAR (Clones Audio USB3.0) PCie Card with 5 V linear psu dedicated supply.

5. Bridged the SHAAR usb3.0 output through a USB3.0 to Ethernet bridging unit with filtered DC power from a Elfidelity 5.32V supply

 

Upcoming a 820Watt Teradak ATX Linear PSU with a Add2Psu card to segregate the GPU from the rest. (I will use the modded Corsair AX760 for the GPU.

 

My long winded (thx for patience in reading the above) is that at each stage the SQ got better and better. The NAA remained the same. Could not open it, Could not mod it but upstream changes and the impact on SQ improvements could be heard progressively and definitively. _ on my shopping list , a new NAA that can run Win Server 2016 - Now that will be another SQ jump!

Good listening to all

Kelvin

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Maybe someone misunderstood my last post. I’m not along with people claiming “everything matters”.

 

Things are pretty clear here: NAA is the key device. Doing optimised things on NAA will make sense such as using a better power supply, using fiber Ethernet, etc. 

 

NAA just transmits the data from HQ PC to the DAC, and I don’t believe and also cannot detect any significant SQ difference when any changes on the HQ PC side/upstream.

 

I don’t understand why people jibber jabber so much about NAA upstream and giving so many irrelevant examples.

 

Here is another sarcastic analogy: you are having Skype chat with your family across the globe, and you claimed that by optimising the OS, PSU of the PC on your family side will improve the audio/video quality such as: voice is more crispy clearer, higher resolution in video transmitting. 

 

Software: Roon, Tidal, HQplayer 

HQplayer PC: i9 7980XE, Titan Xp, RTX 3090; i9 9900K, Titan V

DAC: Holo Audio MAY L2, T+A DAC8 DSD, exasound e12, iFi micro iDSD BL

USB tweaks: Intona, Uptone (ISO) regen, LPS-1, LPS-1.2, Sbooster Vbus2, Curious cables, SUPRA Certified HiSpeed USB cable

NAA: Logic CL100 powered by Uptone JS-2

AMP: Spectral DMC 30SV, Spectral DMA 300RS

Speaker: Magico S3 MKII

Rack: HRS SXR signature

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3 hours ago, louisxiawei said:

Maybe someone misunderstood my last post. I’m not along with people claiming “everything matters”.

 

Things are pretty clear here: NAA is the key device. Doing optimised things on NAA will make sense such as using a better power supply, using fiber Ethernet, etc. 

 

NAA just transmits the data from HQ PC to the DAC, and I don’t believe and also cannot detect any significant SQ difference when any changes on the HQ PC side/upstream.

 

I don’t understand why people jibber jabber so much about NAA upstream and giving so many irrelevant examples.

 

Here is another sarcastic analogy: you are having Skype chat with your family across the globe, and you claimed that by optimising the OS, PSU of the PC on your family side will improve the audio/video quality such as: voice is more crispy clearer, higher resolution in video transmitting. 

 

Hi @louisxiawei, thank you for your clarification. I also agree with you that NAA is the key device.

 

What I even more agree with you is your statement that "Sometimes, it's pointless arguing. Some people want to believe in what they want to believe."

 

However, kindly please note that this statement can be applied from the two opposite stances.

 

I just would like to elaborate that, after all, playing CAS or HiFi is our hobby to enjoy with rather than to argue. We all may have different setup and hardware & software configurations under different conditions. This may also affect our interpretation of the final result. If someone do things that they believe in finding improvement, it is their own choice and enjoyment. Is it correct? Cheers!

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13 hours ago, DancingSea said:

 

Moi Miska,

 

My primary interest is for the SDM (DSD) settings, and even for the PCM settings, it would be helpful to have a chart, like you have, but with less technical explanations - and instead explanations that explain the sound.  When I read the explanations in the manual, I usually am more confused than I was before ;)

 

For instance, if you read a review in Stereophile or TAS, they use an extensive sonic vocabulary that is relatively non-technical.  It would be helpful to read an entire list of all the HQP options written in that vein.  Yes, I can adjust the settings and listen for myself, but I like having guidance of what to listen for.....

I am in...?

Jensen VRD-iFF>Router>Rj45>opticalModule>
SFP>Buffalo2016>SFP>opticalModule >Rj45>

IZen Mk3>Rj45> Delock62619>Rj45>
etherRegen (Master Clock+ Mini-Circuits BLP)>SFP>opticalRendu>USB>IsoRegen>

USB>Phoenix>USB>OPPO 205 (Modded)>HMS “the Perfect Match”>Proac Tablette Reference 8 Signature.
 

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Hello, 

I been using HQPlayer for a while, and would like to try convolution, I currently has a j1900 fanless. will this enough for me to run convolution? if so 2CH or multi-ch?

if not, what do i need to look for as an upgrade?

 

Thanks for the help.

B

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On 6/18/2018 at 5:35 AM, louisxiawei said:

Then you might be also able to tell us when does Tidal stream the best SQ during a day? IOW, can you tell any SQ difference if any changes on the Tidal server side?

 

NAA is the key device before the DAC. Optical Ethernet route before NAA is good approach for preventing EMI/RFI. 

 

My HQ pc is located in a different place from NAA with quite a long distance, and I can detect no difference whatsoever changing any things on HQ PC side.

 

BTW, I was also a fidelizer user and now I quit using it on HQ PC.

That software could improve the performance when you just want to use your PC solely for audio since it shut down lots of background services, but other features like “core-isolation” totally messed up with HQplayer and other software, games either causing HQPlayer stutter or frame stutter during gaming... and I will not encourage one to use fidelizer on HQ pc if the performance of your PC is not at the edge.

 

My experience mirrors yours on all counts.

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3 hours ago, Ben2300 said:

I been using HQPlayer for a while, and would like to try convolution, I currently has a j1900 fanless. will this enough for me to run convolution? if so 2CH or multi-ch?

if not, what do i need to look for as an upgrade?

 

Generally it depends on source sampling rates you want to process, size of your filters and number of channels. Processing fairly small filters for 44.1k sampling rate is not very heavy. While processing large filters for multi-channel DSD is very heavy.

 

So the answer heavily dependens on these aspects.

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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On 6/19/2018 at 1:00 PM, bibo01 said:

How far apart are your HQPlayer server and your NAA? Are they on the same electrical line? Do you use a router/switch in between? 

Same 20Amp dedicated circuit. But I feed the NAA {Quadcore Intel X5 Z8300 fanless minipc) powered by a Linear PSU fed by AC through a EMF/RFI filter, an Oyaide R0 then through a Furotech power bar. The HQ PC is to the wall socket with its own EMF/RFI filter. SQ seems better as maybe less current restriction to the big current draw for the i7 6700k PC.

I take the fibre broad band from the ISP's modem (LPS powered) to an Asus AC68U (LPS powered) then to  a LPS power Netgear GS105NA Switch between the HQ PC. and the ASUS (more filtering) All Cat 6e cables with the JS insulation shielding and earth wire treatment

The HQ PC is connected from the CLONES Audio SHAAR(PCie) USB 3.0 output to the NAA via Unitek USB 3.0 Dual LAN Gigabit Converter Adapter - This gives a Hard ware bridge between my HQ PC and the NAA. This is powered by a special Elfidelity USB 3.0 ultra low distortion PSU.

I get the benefits of the bridging, the linear power for all in line devices, ethernet filtering, additional filtering via the NetGear GS105 and all the shielded and earthed Cat 6e cables. amplifying the benefits of separation of HQ PC from the NAA . 

Don't know about other CA members, I hear SQ improvements every step of the way through all of these progressive tweaks and mods (was not a lot of money but yes fussy- done a step at a time it wasn't so bad).

Best wishes

 

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43 minutes ago, kelvinwsy said:

I get the benefits of the bridging, the linear power for all in line devices, ethernet filtering, additional filtering via the NetGear GS105 and all the shielded and earthed Cat 6e cables. amplifying the benefits of separation of HQ PC from the NAA . 

 

I would use unshielded cable at least to the NAA, preferably to all devices, to break ground currents between the devices... Point of NAA was to provide isolation, and with shielded cables that doesn't work anymore...

 

Signalyst - Developer of HQPlayer

Pulse & Fidelity - Software Defined Amplifiers

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5 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

I would use unshielded cable at least to the NAA, preferably to all devices, to break ground currents between the devices... Point of NAA was to provide isolation, and with shielded cables that doesn't work anymore...

 

No Jussi i took your advice. I swapped out my Ugreen Cat 7 (with the metal RJ-45) for these Cat 6 UTP cables with plastic RJ-45. The shielding is external aluminium foil wrapping with a connecting earth wire to link both ends of this foil shield. It is an External shield NOT connected at all to the RJ45 connectors( a la John Swenson) .

 

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