HQ Player

[Quadman]

I searched the forum and skimmed the new manual but I cant find what does it mean when the volume knob on HQP main screen has a red circle around it.  I know fully red means clipping, this is just a outline red circle.

[markjock3]

On 11/8/2017 at 9:56 AM, shadowlight said:

 

Mark,

 

You can use the following link to change the version number to see if Jussi has older version hosted on his site.

 

https://www3.signalyst.com/bins/HQPlayerDesktop3-mac-3182.dmg - change 3182 to some older version to see if it works.

Thanks Shadowlight, I will give that a try.

[markjock3]

On 11/8/2017 at 4:02 AM, AnotherSpin said:

 

If you ask for any particular build someone would send you a file. Some people store old versions just in case.

 

I have some builds from 2014 - 2015

Thank you Anotherspin, I will be sending a PM.

[Miska]

39 minutes ago, Quadman said:

I searched the forum and skimmed the new manual but I cant find what does it mean when the volume knob on HQP main screen has a red circle around it.  I know fully red means clipping, this is just a outline red circle.

 

That you have volume set too high... Yellow is warning that you are in danger zone and red indicates setting that is likely to cause limiting, or has already caused limiting (if it suddenly turns red while playing).

 

[Quadman]

4 hours ago, Miska said:

That you have volume set too high... Yellow is warning

  Wow I am at -7 for max volume.  I do upsample all files mostly 16/44 aiff to DSD512 tho.  Still -7 as max and limiting

[juanitox]

HQplayer volume question,   i know that the volume for upsampling to DSD must be set top -3db but  what is the limit of Hqplayer attenuation not to loose too much resolution   -6db  -12b  -20db ?

 

thanks

[Miska]

1 hour ago, juanitox said:

HQplayer volume question,   i know that the volume for upsampling to DSD must be set top -3db but  what is the limit of Hqplayer attenuation not to loose too much resolution   -6db  -12b  -20db ?

 

I would say that is not relevant... The question applies more to analog domain of your DAC and amplifiers than anything in digital domain.

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Quadman said:

  Wow I am at -7 for max volume.  I do upsample all files mostly 16/44 aiff to DSD512 tho.  Still -7 as max and limiting

 

You have some strange material then. I'm curious what filter do you use? I've found only very few albums where I hit limiter with -3 dB setting.

 

[Quadman]

7 hours ago, Miska said:

You have some strange material then

  Not really, one album that did cause limiting was an all acoustic album- Buddy Guy and Junior Wells Alone and Acoustic.  Guitar, Harmonica and voice.  Filters are usually XTR-MP 2s, DSD5V2, 48x512 with autorate family checked.  This PC was the 1700X (3700Ghz OC), no cuda, 16Gb ram.   I think at the end of the night the limiter count was about 13 over a 6 hour listening period.  I use HQP with Roon so usually I cannot see the HQP screen as Roon overlays it.  DSP in Roon is off.  No convolution used at all either.  HQP was 3.18.2.  I remember a Michael Jackson album, Invincible I think also caused limiting

[ted_b]

Quadman, an eval of your log file will show which tracks cause limiting and by how much.  I had a huge playlist on repeat while breaking in a new component and saw that one single track, on a heretofore-benign PCM Diana Krall hirez album, was the culprit.  And it reported -11!  Weird.

[austinpop]

On this volume min/max setting thing... Since I don't use SW volume control at all, I had been setting min = max = 0 to bypass.

 

Based on the discussion here, it sounds like I need to pay closer attention to this. If I am doing ONLY PCM->PCM upsampling, is there any reason to lower these settings?

 

Further, if the answer above is yes, should I do something like min = max = -3? Or is there a reason for min to be lower than max?

[Quadman]

1 hour ago, ted_b said:

Quadman, an eval of your log file

Ted, I'll have to enable logging in settings and review once I see clipping has occurred.  The PC above I just sent to the person I built it for so I'll watch my 6700K machine for clipping.  I was not on a repeat cycle so it was definitely more than 1 track that caused the issue.

 

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

ONLY PCM->PCM upsampling

PCM up sampling really does not tax the system so clipping probably would not occur but I really hear no difference between -3 and 0 so I would set max to -2 or -3 just to be safe.  I always set min to much lower -50 I think, don't know why, I use my dac's volume control to adjust volume as I use a buffered preamp with no remote volume.

[ted_b]

18 minutes ago, Quadman said:

PCM up sampling really does not tax the system so clipping probably would not occur but I really hear no difference between -3 and 0 so I would set max to -2 or -3 just to be safe.

My comment about the DK track being -11 was PCM to PCM (I do Holo Spring PCM to 384k and DSD to DSD512).  My min/max is -4 FYI.

[Dr Tone]

50 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Further, if the answer above is yes, should I do something like min = max = -3? Or is there a reason for min to be lower than max?

 

No reason for min and max to be different unless you want to control the volume via hqplayer's volume knob.

 

I've seen HQPlayer's clipping indicator on some music still at -4db.  Set yours to -6db for min and max, it's the safest setting in my experience.

[austinpop]

9 minutes ago, ted_b said:

My min/max is -4 FYI.

 

2 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

Set yours to -6db for min and max, it's the safest setting in my experience.

 

Thank you both for the advice. I'll do as you suggest.

[Dr Tone]

@austinpop On a side note which filter/settings do you prefer for PCM->PCM upsampling over the internal Ayre filtering?

[austinpop]

10 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

@austinpop On a side note which filter/settings do you prefer for PCM->PCM upsampling over the internal Ayre filtering?

 

When it comes to settings, I'm a set it and forget it kind of guy. I hate playing with filters and dither every time I listen to a song. I am really struggling with the multitude of choices on HQPlayer. I don't have the patience to try the 207 different combinations (23 x 9) of filter and dither.

 

Based on recommendations, I've tried poly-sinc-xtr and poly-sinc-xtr-mp. I like the -mp. For dither, I tried NS5 and TPDF (per @ted_b) and can't really hear a difference.

 

So my default for now is poly-sinc-xtr-mp and NS5. And I upsample to the max of 352.8 or 384, based on rate family.

[Johnseye]

On 11/10/2017 at 3:24 PM, Miska said:

 

Those filter's don't allow you to do such ratios in first place. If you experience problems from 44.1k to 192k then there is something seriously wrong somewhere. Because that doesn't consume any notable amount of CPU time either.

 

What OS and backend are you using?

 

Would this be buffer related, not processor?

 

I noticed another issue.  I have my dac bits set at 32 but HDPlayer is not upsampling to 32 bits.  My dac supports 32 bits.  Roon will upsample to 32 bits, if increasing the bit depth is even considered upsampling.

 

[d_elm]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

When it comes to settings, I'm a set it and forget it kind of guy. I hate playing with filters and dither every time I listen to a song. I am really struggling with the multitude of choices on HQPlayer. I don't have the patience to try the 207 different combinations (23 x 9) of filter and dither.

 

Based on recommendations, I've tried poly-sinc-xtr and poly-sinc-xtr-mp. I like the -mp. For dither, I tried NS5 and TPDF (per @ted_b) and can't really hear a difference.

 

So my default for now is poly-sinc-xtr-mp and NS5. And I upsample to the max of 352.8 or 384, based on rate family.

@austinpop when you upsample PCM is it worth the trouble over what the Codex will do ?

[austinpop]

22 minutes ago, d_elm said:

@austinpop when you upsample PCM is it worth the trouble over what the Codex will do ?

 

Just barely, and I think that's why it's all seeming like a chore to me.  

 

Don't get me wrong - there IS an improvement, but it is small. That's not a surprise - I know the improvements vary with DAC. In fact, the first time I evaluated HQPlayer, it didn't do anything for me, so I let the eval period expire. More recently, with the improved resolution in my chain with the whole trifecta, I tried again. This time I did hear a modest improvement - nice, but the earth didn't move.

 

I am sure if I move to one of the specific DACs that appear to benefit greatly - like the T+A DAC 8 DSD or the iFi MicroDSD Black - and upsample everything to DSD512, I might hear more of the magic.

 

With my DAC, if I'm being totally honest, I hear a similar improvement by just using Roon upsampling. Heresy on this thread, I know, but there it is.

 

I don't regret buying an HQPlayer license, as one day I might upgrade to a DAC that benefits more. Until then, I'm not sure yet whether it'll stay in my chain or not.

[Miska]

4 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Would this be buffer related, not processor?

 

I noticed another issue.  I have my dac bits set at 32 but HDPlayer is not upsampling to 32 bits.  My dac supports 32 bits.  Roon will upsample to 32 bits, if increasing the bit depth is even considered upsampling.

 

Trying to figure out your signal chain... Are you sending to SMS-200 running as a NAA? In that case, leave HQPlayer buffer setting to "Default". How are you determining that HQPlayer is not upsampling to 32-bits?

 

[Miska]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

On this volume min/max setting thing... Since I don't use SW volume control at all, I had been setting min = max = 0 to bypass.

 

Based on the discussion here, it sounds like I need to pay closer attention to this. If I am doing ONLY PCM->PCM upsampling, is there any reason to lower these settings?

 

Further, if the answer above is yes, should I do something like min = max = -3? Or is there a reason for min to be lower than max?

 

Yes, because you need to leave headroom for material that contains digital clipping / inter-sample-overs (most modern RedBook material). HQPlayer will anyway force the signal to stay within the bounds through it's special limiter functionality and you may not notice anything, but it is better not to trigger the limiter. So keep eye on the "Limited" counter in main window and the volume knob. The limited counter should stay 0 at all times. For most (but not all) material -3 dB is enough.

 

I have my range set to min=-6 max=0, allowing me to fine tune if necessary with normal setting knob pointing up.

 

 

[Miska]

8 hours ago, Quadman said:

  Not really, one album that did cause limiting was an all acoustic album- Buddy Guy and Junior Wells Alone and Acoustic.  Guitar, Harmonica and voice.  Filters are usually XTR-MP 2s, DSD5V2, 48x512 with autorate family checked.  This PC was the 1700X (3700Ghz OC), no cuda, 16Gb ram.   I think at the end of the night the limiter count was about 13 over a 6 hour listening period.  I use HQP with Roon so usually I cannot see the HQP screen as Roon overlays it.  DSP in Roon is off.  No convolution used at all either.  HQP was 3.18.2.  I remember a Michael Jackson album, Invincible I think also caused limiting

 

There are some albums that contain so heavy digital clipping that 3 dB is still not enough headroom. Machine itself doesn't matter, what matters is mostly source material and conversion ratio (higher ratios tend to increase likelihood and amount of inter-sample-overs), and to some extent filter.

 

[austinpop]

9 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yes, because you need to leave headroom for material that contains digital clipping / inter-sample-overs (most modern RedBook material). HQPlayer will anyway force the signal to stay within the bounds through it's special limiter functionality and you may not notice anything, but it is better not to trigger the limiter. So keep eye on the "Limited" counter in main window and the volume knob. The limited counter should stay 0 at all times. For most (but not all) material -3 dB is enough.

 

I have my range set to min=-6 max=0, allowing me to fine tune if necessary with normal setting knob pointing up.

 

 

 

Thanks, that is really great to know. I'll do as you suggest, and keep an eye on the Limited count. Luckily, mine is showing 0 right now, but I'm guessing it's only since the last time I started the process.

[Quadman]

8 minutes ago, Miska said:

what matters is mostly source material and conversion ratio (higher ratios tend to increase likelihood and amount of inter-sample-overs)

So source has more to do with this, good to know as I mentioned this machine was on -7 for Max volume and the counter at end of night said 13.  By conversion ratio I assume you mean if 44.1 is source and DSD512 is the output the conversion ratio is 512?