HQ Player

[craighartley]

If you use Roon, did you check that Roon actually stopped HQPlayer? When you click pause in Roon it doesn't stop HQPlayer immediately, but instead puts HQPlayer into pause meaning that HQPlayer switches to playing silence instead of music. This is because Roon doesn't have a stop-button at all.

 

Doesn't long press on pause button = Stop ?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[Dr Tone]

Doesn't long press on pause button = Stop ?

 

Normally yes, but I don't think it works with HQPlayer, not sure which end is the problem.

[Miska]

Doesn't long press on pause button = Stop ?

 

I don't know, someone could of course try and see if it works. I don't have Roon at hand right now.

 

So far Roon first sends pause and then after ~10 - 15 seconds it sends stop to HQPlayer. And I think it is probably good idea that it works this way with it's current UI design.

 

I personally think it is good idea to have a separate pause and stop buttons, just like CD players and tape decks have. Software cannot deduct user's intention when pause and stop are overloaded on the same button.

[craighartley]

I don't know, someone could of course try and see if it works. I don't have Roon at hand right now.

 

So far Roon first sends pause and then after ~10 - 15 seconds it sends stop to HQPlayer.

 

I'm not at home (with Roon) until Friday. But yes, perhaps someone could check how HQP/NAA respond to a long press on the Pause button in Roon.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Computer Audiophile

[luchoh]

I'm not at home (with Roon) until Friday. But yes, perhaps someone could check how HQP/NAA respond to a long press on the Pause button in Roon.

 

This is correct, long press positions at the beginning of the track, i.e. stop. HQPlayer receives the stop command immediately.

[christoph]

Hi Dave

Hi Misha,

Many thanks for looking into this.

You are correct, I am using HQPlayer with Roon. As you say... no stop button just "pause".

The sequence of restart you describe (turn on DAC, start NAA, start HQPlayer etc.) is what works.

Interesting re: ASIO driver architecture.

I will contact T + A. Hopefully they can update their ASIO driver....

Cheers,

Dave

 

You need to hold pause in roon for about 2-3 seconds then roon sends a stop instead of pause.

 

Sorry, was too late...

[shadowlight]

The patch I sent to support both LE and BE native DSD variants is merged upstream and should appear in 4.10 kernel.

 

It seems that the patch missed 4.10 but is included in 4.11rc1 under sounce/usb/quirks.c

 

Miska, will you be releasing a custom kernel for Stretch the same way you do for Xenial LTS?

[Miska]

It seems that the patch missed 4.10 but is included in 4.11rc1 under sounce/usb/quirks.c

 

Miska, will you be releasing a custom kernel for Stretch the same way you do for Xenial LTS?

 

I've been building slightly reconfigured stable kernels as packages for Stretch for my own use, but no extra patches on top. I'm so fully occupied with everything that I really don't have time to maintain another kernel branch.

 

Maybe I unify the kernel configurations at some point in future and build packages for both out of same sources and configuration, but not right now.

[sfox7076]

Hi Misha,

Many thanks for looking into this.

You are correct, I am using HQPlayer with Roon. As you say... no stop button just "pause".

The sequence of restart you describe (turn on DAC, start NAA, start HQPlayer etc.) is what works.

Interesting re: ASIO driver architecture.

I will contact T + A. Hopefully they can update their ASIO driver....

Cheers,

Dave

 

 

I struggle with that a lot using Roon and HQPlayer. I have used a Cubox with the custom image, a Raspberry Pi and a Dell Windows 10 based computer. Each one of them had issues when I powered down my DAC (I use a DAC with an Amanero board). Without fail, if I turned the DAC off (even after hitting pause on ROON and waiting 15 seconds before shutting down), it would not restart without me shutting down the NAA, restarting the NAA and then relaunching HQplayer on my server (which is under the bed in my bedroom). It caused me to tear my hair out. I had mildly more success with the Dell Windows solution. It still is far from ideal. When Roon put out its new DSP, I used it to just check it out. I thought the sound quality was inferior to HQ Player. That said, I wanted to see if it was afflicted with the same issues (meaning I would have to reboot the NAA/Roon endpoint with each power cycle). Low and behold, it did not have the issue HQ Player had. I could shut my DAC on and off even mid-song without issue. So now I only use HQ Player when I really want to do critical listening. For critical listening, I guess I will still go though the HQ Player reboot sequence... Anyway, just my thoughts. Good luck.

[Miska]

I struggle with that a lot using Roon and HQPlayer. I have used a Cubox with the custom image, a Raspberry Pi and a Dell Windows 10 based computer. Each one of them had issues when I powered down my DAC (I use a DAC with an Amanero board). Without fail, if I turned the DAC off (even after hitting pause on ROON and waiting 15 seconds before shutting down), it would not restart without me shutting down the NAA, restarting the NAA and then relaunching HQplayer on my server (which is under the bed in my bedroom). It caused me to tear my hair out. I had mildly more success with the Dell Windows solution. It still is far from ideal. When Roon put out its new DSP, I used it to just check it out. I thought the sound quality was inferior to HQ Player. That said, I wanted to see if it was afflicted with the same issues (meaning I would have to reboot the NAA/Roon endpoint with each power cycle). Low and behold, it did not have the issue HQ Player had. I could shut my DAC on and off even mid-song without issue. So now I only use HQ Player when I really want to do critical listening. For critical listening, I guess I will still go though the HQ Player reboot sequence... Anyway, just my thoughts. Good luck.

 

Are you using latest HQPlayer and NAA? Because this was improved in the past and I've been hammering this a lot without issues on recent versions. For example if you reboot NAA, you don't need to restart HQPlayer. It'll reconnect.

 

But overall, please use the NAA thread for NAA related things:

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f22-networking-networked-audio-and-streaming/hqplayers-network-audio-adapter-13892

 

This thread is so long with lot of stuff that it would be good to split different topics to respective threads. Thanks...

[shadowlight]

I've been building slightly reconfigured stable kernels as packages for Stretch for my own use, but no extra patches on top. I'm so fully occupied with everything that I really don't have time to maintain another kernel branch.

 

Maybe I unify the kernel configurations at some point in future and build packages for both out of same sources and configuration, but not right now.

 

Understood. Any chance you can share your customization file?

[rickca]

This thread is so long with lot of stuff that it would be good to split different topics to respective threads.

You think?

There is so much excellent information in this thread. I hope maybe the new CA software coming on 3/18 will enable better search capability.

[bogi]

For NAA:

 

Two options, get Ubuntu 16.04 LTS Server (amd64) from here and then install my custom kernel from here.

 

Alternatively get Debian Stretch form here and then install optional linux-image-rt-amd64 kernel straight from Debian repository.

 

When installing, do not create any swap partition (installer will complain a little, but it doesn't matter). When installer of either one asks what extra package selections to install, at most install "Standard utilities" and "OpenSSH server". Nothing else.

 

OpenSSH server makes life easier for managing a headless system for example from Windows, because then you can use PuTTY to login remotely.

 

Remember to configure network through /etc/network/interfaces file. See "man interfaces" for documentation how to use it.

 

Miska, thanks for the steps and links. I installed Xenial according to your recommendations to 2GB partition without swap. I installed your kernel, headers and the library provided together with them. To successfully install networkaudiod, I had to download and install ALSA libraries first. I configured IPv6 with autoconfiguration option for my direct cable connection. Directly using IPv6 addresses, ping works from both sides. putty and WinSCP works from my Win10 notebook. hqplayerd is running on the miniPC.

 

HQPlayer Desktop on Win10 doesn't see the Linux NAA. It opens the Settings dialog and then crashes. Is the Linux NAA version supposed to work over IPv6 autoconfiguration? The Win10 NAA version works in this mode. I didn't try yet IPv5 fixed addresses.

[Miska]

HQPlayer Desktop on Win10 doesn't see the Linux NAA. It opens the Settings dialog and then crashes. Is the Linux NAA version supposed to work over IPv6 autoconfiguration? The Win10 NAA version works in this mode. I didn't try yet IPv5 fixed addresses.

 

Crash is strange are you on 3.15.1? Yes, IPv6 works for me, but I have not tried tried direct cable because it is not recommended. My network infra has two smart switches and three unmanaged ones.

 

In multi-homed setups problem is usually multicast routing so that multicasts go to the right interface.

[bogi]

Crash is strange are you on 3.15.1? Yes, IPv6 works for me, but I have not tried tried direct cable because it is not recommended. My network infra has two smart switches and three unmanaged ones.

 

In multi-homed setups problem is usually multicast routing so that multicasts go to the right interface.

 

 

Direct cable connection from dedicated NIC without router on that physical network was found as best sounding. See for example here - people are using 2nd NIC to connect to MicroRendu and using bridge between NICs if necessary.

 

HQPlayer Desktop 3.15.1 log:

 

* 2017/03/07 09:49:34 Starting...
 2017/03/07 09:49:34 Signalyst HQPlayer Desktop v3.15.1b2
 2017/03/07 09:49:34 Engine selected: 
 2017/03/07 09:49:34 Windows version 6.2.9200 (2), 
* 2017/03/07 09:49:34 Control server started
 2017/03/07 09:49:39 Restore GUI state
 2017/03/07 09:49:39 libDSP version 18.2.2
 2017/03/07 09:49:39 Audio engine: network6
 2017/03/07 09:49:39 Network Audio IPv6 support enabled
 2017/03/07 09:49:39 Discovery from ::
 2017/03/07 09:49:41 Discovered 0 Network Audio Adapters
 2017/03/07 09:49:41 Set channels: 2 (2)
 2017/03/07 09:49:41 DAC bits: 24
 2017/03/07 09:49:41 SDM packing: 1
! 2017/03/07 09:49:41 createEngine(): clHQPlayerEngine::Initialize(): clNetMiniEngine::Initialize(): adapter not found
& 2017/03/07 09:49:45 Playlist save: C:\Users\bogi\AppData\Local\HQPlayer\current.m3u8
- 2017/03/07 09:49:45 Network engine stopping...
 2017/03/07 09:49:45 Network Audio IPv6 support enabled
 2017/03/07 09:49:45 Discovery from ::
- 2017/03/07 09:49:52 Network engine stopping...
 2017/03/07 09:49:52 libDSP version 18.2.2
 2017/03/07 09:49:52 Audio engine: network6
 2017/03/07 09:49:52 Network Audio IPv6 support enabled
 2017/03/07 09:49:52 Discovery from ::
 2017/03/07 09:49:54 Discovered 0 Network Audio Adapters
 2017/03/07 09:49:54 Set channels: 2 (2)
 2017/03/07 09:49:54 DAC bits: 24
 2017/03/07 09:49:54 SDM packing: 1
- 2017/03/07 09:49:54 Network engine stopping...
! 2017/03/07 09:49:54 clMainWindow::settingsTriggered(): clMainWindow::reinitEngine(): clHQPlayerEngine::Initialize(): clNetMiniEngine::Initialize(): adapter not found

 

I don't know where networkaudiod log is stored on Linux but it probably didn't observe any connection attempt.

[Miska]

Direct cable connection from dedicated NIC without router on that physical network was found as best sounding.

 

Another thing I don't agree on. You just make your life miserable trying to deal with multi-homed computers. More you have switches on the way, more isolation you have between the two computers. Every hop has two isolation transformers. Just use good quality switches with metal casing.

 

people are using 2nd NIC to connect to MicroRendu and using bridge between NICs if necessary.

 

My microRendu is connected to my 24-port HP smart switch with auto-adjusting transmit power (based on the cable length it measures).

 

HQPlayer Desktop 3.15.1 log

 

Looks like it doesn't find any NAAs and as a result the already configured one is not found.

 

2017/03/07 09:49:34 Signalyst HQPlayer Desktop v3.15.1b2

 

This is old beta, I'd recommend to update to the final release.

Probably doesn't have much effect on this issue though.

 

I don't know where networkaudiod log is stored on Linux but it probably didn't observe any connection attempt.

 

It is not stored by default so that the NAA wouldn't eventually run out of disk space. Did you check networkaudiod is running? IOW, did you reboot after the installation or start it manually? Check what "systemctl status networkaudiod" says.

 

You can see the output log if you stop the service first with "systemctl stop networkaudiod" and then start it in terminal with "networkaudiod".

[bogi]

Another thing I don't agree on. You just make your life miserable trying to deal with multi-homed computers. More you have switches on the way, more isolation you have between the two computers. Every hop has two isolation transformers. Just use good quality switches with metal casing.

...

My microRendu is connected to my 24-port HP smart switch with auto-adjusting transmit power (based on the cable length it measures).

 

Not relevant in my case as I am using no physical home network (expect of the cable to NAA). I am connected to internet via 4G USB dongle on my notebook and yet I tend to switch it off in the case of listening. I don't use WiFi at home. The only my Ethernet is the direct cable between my notebook and NAA.

 

It has only advantages for me. I don't need a router to connect 2 devices. Less devices less noise. Especielly when it works so conveniently with Win10 NAA. I didn't need to configure anything network related in OS on the Win10 notebook and Win10 NAA side. Both devices are seeing each other using IPv6 autoconfiguration and Win10 NAA works with HQPlayer flawlessly in this mode. I am trying Linux NAA mainly to make sonic comparison. Convenience of use and configuration are naturally part of my comparison too.

 

This is old beta, I'd recommend to update to the final release.

Probably doesn't have much effect on this issue though.

OK, I will update. Should I use the latest from your consumer page or the latest beta?

 

Did you check networkaudiod is running?

Yes, I already mentioned that in my previous mail. I found hqplayerd running after reboot.

 

IOW, did you reboot after the installation or start it manually? Check what "systemctl status networkaudiod" says.

 

You can see the output log if you stop the service first with "systemctl stop networkaudiod" and then start it in terminal with "networkaudiod".

I will try it on evening when I will return home. Thanks.

[Miska]

It has only advantages for me. I don't need a router to connect 2 devices. Less devices less noise.

 

Less devices doesn't necessarily mean less noise. It may mean less isolation and thus more noise...

 

My point is mostly that network equipment, software and the overall infrastructure are designed specifically for networks and not for point-to-point connections. This is why point-to-point connections tend to create more problems than they solve.

 

OK, I will update. Should I use the latest from your consumer page or the latest beta?

 

Whenever there's a non-beta version that has version number equal or higher to the latest beta, use the non-beta. The beta-page is only updated when/if there are nwq beta versions (usually there are no beta versions between HQPlayer releases).

 

Yes, I already mentioned that in my previous mail. I found hqplayerd running after reboot.

 

You mean networkaudiod? If you have hqplayerd running it will steal the device from networkaudiod.

[bogi]

You mean networkaudiod? If you have hqplayerd running it will steal the device from networkaudiod.

 

Yes, I meant networkaudiod.

[bogi]

Less devices doesn't necessarily mean less noise. It may mean less isolation and thus more noise...

 

It may ... or not. Depending on the concrete case. You can find repeated reports in this thread how connecting MicroRendu to separate NIC with dedicated cable sonically helped. Written by NAA users.

[Miska]

It may ... or not. Depending on the concrete case. You can find repeated reports in this thread how connecting MicroRendu to separate NIC with dedicated cable sonically helped. Written by NAA users.

 

You know, I prefer objective means of verification. At least I know my switch puts out less noise than my computer.

 

But I also prefer not to use audiophile USB and network cables that in many cases could possibly fail standard compliance certification.

 

Also for networking and USB gear, improving the clocks used on those make the noise signature worse. Best is to use one with spread spectrum clocking, where jitter is added on purpose to produce less spurious tones. It is good because none of these clocks have anything to do with audio timing.

 

One good example why the original M2Tech hiFace is still one of the best USB-to-S/PDIF converters because it doesn't have strict packet timing interval, unlike USB Audio Class devices. Main problem with USB Audio Class devices is the static 8 kHz packet interval that tends to pop up at measurements, especially for USB bus powered devices. When that interval becomes less deterministic the level of the 8 kHz spurious tone drops.

[mirekti]

Theoretically yes, however that would multiply the RAM usage and wouldn't even work for the 32-bit binary because it would run out of the address space. But that is possibility in future when most people start having 16 - 32 GB of RAM.

I would say material for 4.x series.

 

When is the 4.x series due?

[bogi]

You know, I prefer objective means of verification. At least I know my switch puts out less noise than my computer.

But I also prefer not to use audiophile USB and network cables that in many cases could possibly fail standard compliance certification.

I'm using standard LAN cable, nothing 'audiophile'.

If to isolate 'network' consisting of 2 devices only, the question is, if to invest into router, when in principle the goal is not to 'route' traffic but to isolate.

 

Win10 NAA improved sound against direct DAC connection to my notebook. Not night and day, but audible. Except of better network isolation I could yet try better power supply, for example iFi iPower 12V 1.8A would be enough for my miniPC.

 

Yet more improvement gave me my DIY USB cable. Very short few cm long data wires - my NAA miniPC lies now on the metal DAC chassis. Ground is lead as a few cm longer cable not so near to data wires to avoid influence. +5V is taken from LPS. The result - audibly better than 60cm long Supra cable. More dynamics, more detail, clearer sound. I couldn't connect my notebook with such a short USB cable, but the miniPC can sit on my DAC chassis.

[Miska]

If to isolate 'network' consisting of 2 devices only, the question is, if to invest into router, when in principle the goal is not to 'route' traffic but to isolate.

 

Not router, but a switch. It adds one extra isolation layer, but of course there are better and worse switches. I have two routers too, but only traffic they ever see is the internet one, because of the switches. Having internet access from the NAA makes pulling Debian OS updates easy, same for the Win10 based NAA too.

 

Except of better network isolation I could yet try better power supply, for example iFi iPower 12V 1.8A would be enough for my miniPC.

 

Or Teddy Pardo...

 

Yet more improvement gave me my DIY USB cable. Very short few cm long data wires - my NAA miniPC lies now on the metal DAC chassis. Ground is lead as a few cm longer cable not so near to data wires to avoid influence. +5V is taken from LPS. The result - audibly better than 60cm long Supra cable. More dynamics, more detail, clearer sound. I couldn't connect my notebook with such a short USB cable, but the miniPC can sit on my DAC chassis.

 

Best approach is to build NAA straight inside the DAC and use I2S/DSD data lines straight instead of USB. Some people do this with BeagleBone Black and Botic driver.

 

But certainly that kind of nearby USB connection is also good.

 

I have also one that kind of Supra USB cable (all my analog cables are Supra), but I didn't notice that it would have made any difference to a normal USB cable with TEAC DACs.

[bogi]

I look at NAA more like to 'setup and use' device and the only operation has to be powering on and off. Therefore (currently) I think updates are not so important thing to consider. I thought not to connect my NAA to internet at all ... and to run it without firewall, antivirus etc. My Win10 NAA is stripped down on that level.

 

I could try something for better network isolation but it's about price/performance ratio. Some people use optical isolation ... it may be better solution than switch.

 

Teddy Pardo is about 350 EUR and iPower about 50 EUR. My DAC was 450 EUR and my NAA miniPC was 77 EUR. For my equipment level iPower seems to be appropriate device.

 

The BB I2S solution is nice thing, I wish such a thing would become a standard ... but I am not going to modify my DAC in that extent.