HQ Player

[zorntel]

Miska,

 

I'm having some performance problems and I'm not sure what's up. I'm using 3.11 on a variety of macs...from an 4 core mac mini i7 16gb ram to several mac pro's with 4 to 8 cores with at least 24gb of ram. The mac pros are all in the 13000 range for multi-core 64bit in geekbench. I'm using DoP to an ifi micro dac2.

 

I'm fine playing DXD and DSD256 native with directSDM checked. I can also upsample PCM to DXD and redbook to DSD256 with no problem. But as soon as I try to upsample anything greater than redbook or DSD64 or DSD128 TO DSD256 my CPU usage blows up to over 200% and I get stuttering. DSD64 upsampled to DSD128 is pulling about 130%. Looking at the cores individually they don't look anywhere close to maxed...all running at less than 40% or so. Any ideas what might be causing the stuttering? I've tried all the different DSD modulators including the 256 ones...same result.

 

I'm going to try using an NAA to buffer things better...perhaps that will help...but I'm not sure what to make of the high CPU usage.

 

Comments?

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Do you have Pipeline SDM enabled in settings? If you have a quad core CPU you get the DSD upsampling load distributed to more cores by using Pipeline SDM. You can also lower the load by using -2s filter variants.

 

 

Brilliant, Miska. Pipeline SDM totally did the trick...now able to beautifully convert even DXD to DSD256. The % CPU in the mac activity monitor is deceptive...must be based on just a single core. Thus, DXD to DSD256 is showing as nearly 370% CPU...but when you look at the 8 cores, none is going at more than 60%. The strange thing is that even without pipeline SDM checked I was getting spread across the 8 cores...and none of them were over capacity...but regardless checking pipeline SDM totally addressed the stuttering problem...super!

 

One other question, what is the difference between the regular DSD5v2 and DSD7 modulators vs DSD5 fs+256 and DSD7 fs+256 modulators? I'm assuming the latter are optimized for DSD256?

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Thanks, you have to be the most responsive software developer ever!

 

Sorry to ask a question that you have probably answered over and over but what do the 5 and 7 indicate? Are they 5th and 7th order filters? Thus the 5 rolls off faster than 7? Do you adjust the center of the transfer function for the 5 and 7 filters as well?

 

Also when you mentioned the adaptive versions, do they automatically adjust based on the output sampling frequency of the resample or the original file?

 

If I'm resampling everything to 256 where do you generally suggest is the best place to start with the modulators? How about resampling to 128? As it stands right now I'm resampling to 256 for my IFI and 128 for my Auralic vega. I imagine that once the firmware gets upgraded to 256 for the Auralic that's the way I'll go there as well. Planning to insert a NAA into the ifi chain... Once I do that I imagine I could go to 512...does that change anything as far as the suggestions go?

[zorntel]

Wondering if anyone has tried HQplayer with a Mytek Brooklyn yet...have one on order but no idea on when I will receive it...I know the first ones have landed. Supposed to be USB-2 driverless with mac and linux up to DSD256. Also curious about integration with linux NAA's. Looking to pump a IFI micro iDSD from my second system.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Jussi,

 

Just fired up 3.13.0beta2 to do some Roon build99 testing. What is poly-sinc-mqa?

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Jussi,

 

I'm testing Roon build 99 with HQplayer 3.13.0 beta 2. I have two systems:

 

System 1: Mac Mini 2012 (Intel Graphics) > Cubox-i NAA (your most recent build) > Auralic vega (older firmware still capped at DSD128)

 

System 2: Mac Pro 2009 (with Geforce GTX780-CUDA) > Sonore Sonicorbiter SE > IFI micro iDSD

 

I use Pipeline SDM on both systems, CUDA offload on System 2.

 

With system 1 I typically up(down)sample to DSD128. With system 2 I typically upsample (pass through) to DSD256. Interestingly I have to check DoP in system 1 or SDM won't show up in the interface, while system 2 doesn't require this. I don't know whether this is a difference between the two NAA's or DACs.

 

Regardless I'm having playback problems with DSD64 content on System 1. Several tracks will go through ok and then playback will stop mid track. I have to disconnect in roon to get things running again. I don't seem to have this problem in system 2. I believe Kman may be having the same problem. DSD64 content in System 1 plays fine if the files are dropped directly into hqplayer (no roon). I've reported this problem over at the Roon community as well, but Brian is suggesting that the problem is probably at the HQplayer end of things.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

And I should report that I also can'd do DSD to PCM in the beta either through Roon or directly from the HQplayer interface.

[zorntel]

Jussi,

 

I'm testing Roon build 99 with HQplayer 3.13.0 beta 2. I have two systems:

 

System 1: Mac Mini 2012 (Intel Graphics) > Cubox-i NAA (your most recent build) > Auralic vega (older firmware still capped at DSD128)

 

System 2: Mac Pro 2009 (with Geforce GTX780-CUDA) > Sonore Sonicorbiter SE > IFI micro iDSD

 

I use Pipeline SDM on both systems, CUDA offload on System 2.

 

With system 1 I typically up(down)sample to DSD128. With system 2 I typically upsample (pass through) to DSD256. Interestingly I have to check DoP in system 1 or SDM won't show up in the interface, while system 2 doesn't require this. I don't know whether this is a difference between the two NAA's or DACs.

 

Regardless I'm having playback problems with DSD64 content on System 1. Several tracks will go through ok and then playback will stop mid track. I have to disconnect in roon to get things running again. I don't seem to have this problem in system 2. I believe Kman may be having the same problem. DSD64 content in System 1 plays fine if the files are dropped directly into hqplayer (no roon). I've reported this problem over at the Roon community as well, but Brian is suggesting that the problem is probably at the HQplayer end of things.

 

Robert

 

System 2 is showing the same behavior...regular freezes while upsampling DSD64 playing from roon.

[zorntel]

Is the system (1) running OS X? If that is the case, it will always require DoP because OS X doesn't have support for raw DSD (except exaSound DACs with ASIO, but that is not supported by networkaudiod).

 

If in system (2) the NAA is running fresh enough Linux/networkaudiod (I assume it is), then it works just fine without DoP to iDSD.

 

I think in your case system (1) is limited to DoP by both OS and the DAC.

 

Both systems are using OSX...but only the one with the IFI dac will go without DoP. I've switched out the Cubox-i with your NAA linux build and the Sonicorbiter and that doesn't make any difference. So I'm assuming that the issue here is the Auralic requiring DoP, while the IFI apparently doesn't? Do you know if the Mytek DACs will run without DoP like the IFI? I have a new Brooklyn on order. I believe that uses the same chip as the Auralic...but obviously the chip isn't the issue as to whether DoP is required or not.

[zorntel]

Jussi,

 

Not sure whether you are seeing this over on the Roon community or not:

 

KMan

2h

 

Regarding DSD playback stopping, I am seeing a very repeatable pattern .

 

• While playing DSD64 (selecting the album and using Play Album -> Play Now), the time/waveform slider stops on Roon exactly after 12 minutes and 38 seconds.
  
• But music continues to play, it finishes playing the current track and plays the next track too. Then stops.
  
• If you ask Roon to skip forward, It skips two tracks.
  

Previously, I thought the music stops where the time slider stopped, but looking closer, I realized it is always after a fixed amount of time. Would be interesting to see if this time is specific to my setup or anyone else is seeing similar behavior. 12 minutes 38 seconds of stereo DSD64 is approximately half a gigabyte of uncompressed PCM, if that rings any bells to the devs re buffer size.

I was able to repeat the above every time. Both Roon and HQPlayer on Mac- >playing to NAA -> Hugo TT. Hqplayer (3.13.0b2, DSD->PCM 384KHz or direct DSD)

 

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zorntelRobert Morrison

1h

 

ooo...fun KMan. Mine just stopped once again (I'm back to running 3.12 incidentally). I'm going to run it with a long track so its easy to keep an eye on the timing. I'll also run it with a DSD128 file...that should fail twice as fast if it is a buffer issue as you suggest.

 

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zorntelRobert Morrison

9m

 

As anticipated Roon froze at 6:20 on a DSD128 Opus3 DSF file...Kman QED! I had only loaded a track that was about 7 minutes...it played out in HQplayer...but roon's progress bar was frozen right at 6:20. Then I loaded a longer DSD128 track (Reference Recordings DSF file) and once again Roon froze at exactly 6:20. As KMan reported playback continued all the way through the 13:54 track and went onto the next track. Note...Roon was still showing that it was frozen on the prior track at 6:20. The next DSD128 track was 8:31 and it played to its conclusion (which was a total of 22:26 in HQplayer). Playback then stopped in spite of another track in the Roon queue. Now onto DSD256 for more fun and faster tests.

HQPlayer on Mac Mini > playing to NAA > Auralic Vega. HQplayer (3.12) Roon build 99. Output in HQ player was DSD128 (5644800)

 

 

 

 

 

[zorntel]

Could you guys looking at the Roon integration issues, please use:

 

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f11-software/roon-hqplayer-integration-26975/ thread

 

sorry guys...just trying to make sure Jussi saw this as its on his to do list for 3.13.

[zorntel]

So I've been in search of the holy grail of DSD512 with my IFI micro iDSD...I know there are a bunch of others out there too.

 

My mac mini 2012 (2.3gHz i7; intel graphics) isn't close.

 

Then I went to a Mac Pro (2.3gHz 8-core; GTX780 cuda)...that was a lot closer but still stuttered.

 

Then I went to a Dell Precision T5600 (2.6gHz 16-core; 48 GB RAM; Quadro 4000...so no CUDA for HQplayer) with Ubuntu Studio 14.04 installed on a Samsung 850 SSD...that was really close...only showing about 18-19% processer...but it still stutters...definitely the closest I've gotten with polysinc-2s.

 

My final assault is to add a MSI GTX970 for CUDA...but if that doesn't do it...I'm going to try to forget about this and be content with DSD256.

 

I should also mention that I use NAA's for actual playback my IFI...currently a Sonicorbiter SE running HQplayer.

 

Am I missing something? Jussi...I think you mentioned that you had to turn graphics off with your E5 and CUDA card to get there? How do I do that?

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Yes, probably won't be able to do DSD512... I think it should do DSD256 just fine with -2s filters.

 

For your case, clock speed is more important than number of cores once you get at least quad-core (or 6-core). Do you have Pipeline SDM enabled?

 

Yes, I have pipeline SDM enabled and I can do DSD256 with -2s filters.

 

Should work fine, I was able to run 8 channels @DSD256 to exaSound e28 using GTX980. Do you have the proprietary nVidia drivers installed on your Linux machine? The open source drivers don't support CUDA or many other features. And 14.04 comes with too old proprietary drivers, so you need to download and install latest from nVidia website.

 

On Linux, also set "Buffer time" in HQPlayer to 100 ms to relax the OS latency requirements a bit.

 

Don't have the GTX970 yet...do to arrive on Wednesday. I know about the proprietary drivers and will be sure to install. Have you tested the ones that just shipped a week ago? Already using 250ms buffer time.

 

I'm having trouble getting the right Linux drivers for the native DSD. I know I need to use the trusty ones...but can you tell me exactly which ones for this system? I'm installing with Gdebi and got some errors on the libasound drivers. These are the ones I tried to install:

 

libasound2_1.0.27.2-3.1jl2_i386.deb

libasound2-data_1.0.27.2-3.1jl2_all.deb

linux-headers-3.13.0-39.66j2_all.deb

linux-tools-3.13.0-48-lowlatency_3.13.0-48.80jil14_i386.deb

 

 

 

Best approach is to first get the playback running locally, and then add NAA once you have things running fine locally. Otherwise you could be chasing a network problem by changing computers which doesn't really help much.

 

Seems reasonable. I'll give that a try. Just need to make sure I have all my DSD drivers correct first.

 

 

My Xeon E5 is running DSD512 upsampling just fine with -2s filters and Pipeline SDM. Works with and without CUDA.

 

When the GPU is getting close to maximum loads, then one needs to be careful what to do with graphics simultaneously, because doing something like scrolling Facebook web page on browser or watching YouTube videos puts some load on the GPU too.

 

If I remember correctly your E5 is clocked higher than mine...though. I do have pipelineSDM checked...and I noticed that HQplayer isn't using all of the 16 cores evenly...some running hot while others not running at all.

 

Thanks for all the help as usual!

 

Robert

[zorntel]

I agree with you. I have a Sabre dac that can do dsd 512 and I am at a loss to hear any significant gain over dsd 256. I keep it set on dsd 256 and never bother with dsd 512. Some other dac's might produce different or better results with dsd 512 but I haven't heard one yet.

 

Thanks guys...very helpful.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

You need 64-bit OS version, and thus you need the "amd64" packages.

 

You need following:

libasound2-data_1.0.27.2-3.1jl2_all.deb

libasound2_1.0.27.2-3.1jl2_amd64.deb

linux-headers-3.13.0-76_3.13.0-76.120jl35_all.deb

linux-headers-3.13.0-76-lowlatency_3.13.0-76.120jl35_amd64.deb

linux-image-3.13.0-76-lowlatency_3.13.0-76.120jl35_amd64.deb

 

Notice the 76.120jl35 is the latest kernel. There are fairly frequent kernel updates, so it is good to stay up to date on that front.

 

Sorry...another Linux newbie question. I'm assuming that I shouldn't update to a new kernal that you don't already have a header or image file for...correct? And is the 3.13.0 reference in the files above suggest that these are for the 3.13.0b3? How important is all of this to match exactly? I'm a mac user and this is a lot to keep track of...but I guess that's the fun!

 

Robert

[zorntel]

One other interesting note...on processor speed related to DSD256/512 and CUDA. I can run polysinc (not *2) at DSD256 on my 2.2ghz 8-core mac pro only when I have CUDA enabled (GTX 780). The same file won't go (stutters a lot) on my 2.6ghz 16-core linux machine that doesn't have CUDA (installing a GTX970 tomorrow).

 

So thank you, Jussi, for implementing CUDA! Gives us another way to breath new life into older processors.

 

Also on the processor front. Is there any hope of developing a "server" version of HQplayer that would make use of more processing cores (not CUDA cores)? I'm not a serious programmer...but it seems like offloading part of the job to the GPU is helping...would be nice to see heavy loads take advantage of more cores when one has them. I realize this probably isn't on the top of the priority list as many people have 4-core machines...also not sure whether it is technically possible given the types of processing you need to do for 2-channel conversion.

[zorntel]

Yes, there's some delay before I get new kernel built when Canonical releases a new kernel for Ubuntu.

 

That 3.13 is just the kernel version Ubuntu is using in 14.04 LTS, but it is not related to HQPlayer version. So the libasound2/linux packages are independent, just that they are needed for running HQPlayer.

 

In about two months there is supposed to be new 16.04 LTS release, so at that point you don't anymore need those custom package versions from me. You can do upgrade from 14.04 to 16.04 when it is available. I recommend waiting for me check that everything works fine also on the new version though.

 

 

Thanks again. One related question. If I'm using your NAA builds to interface to the Dacs...do I even need these files installed on the HQplayer machine doing the processing? Not sure how the drivers work when there is a NAA in between the processing computer and the DAC.

[zorntel]

That would be great... As I mentioned previously Cuda can really be a tie breaker. A much cheaper option thread b upgrading processors.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Jussi,

 

This may have already been suggested...if so...+1...but it would be great if you could change "format" in the "Time:" box to "Input Format" and include "Output Format" right under it. That would solve the problem of not knowing what sampling rate is currently being used in the auto mode.

 

The Auto rate mode still seems to be a bit idiosyncratic in my hands. This may partly be the result of specific equipment. For instance the Auralic Vega, at least with my current firmware, will only do 5644800 but not 6144000. As long as you know that and cap it at the lower rate, auto rate mode works with DSD or PCM 44/88/176 content but not 48/96/192 content. If you turn off the auto rate mode...no problem. Likewise the Auralic will only report DSD64 or DSD128...not finer distinctions. My IFI DACs only have colored lights and they are not very discriminating...thus it would be really useful...particularly for troubleshooting to have what HQplayer is trying to output clearly visible.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

I've thought about it, but it doesn't actually fit there. On some OS and some display/font size settings it would fit, but for example for me on Linux with 4K display it doesn't fit and I'm reluctant to make the information boxes larger because it immediately cuts out one line of space from library or playlist views. I rather just fit it on the same format line.

 

If you use latest Roon builds with HQPlayer, the active rate is actually reported there...

 

 

Edit: I changed it to look like this a bit of fitting exercise, is this better than before?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24014[/ATTACH]

 

That's super...thanks Jussi.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

You need 64-bit OS version, and thus you need the "amd64" packages.

 

You need following:

libasound2-data_1.0.27.2-3.1jl2_all.deb

libasound2_1.0.27.2-3.1jl2_amd64.deb

linux-headers-3.13.0-76_3.13.0-76.120jl35_all.deb

linux-headers-3.13.0-76-lowlatency_3.13.0-76.120jl35_amd64.deb

linux-image-3.13.0-76-lowlatency_3.13.0-76.120jl35_amd64.deb

 

Notice the 76.120jl35 is the latest kernel. There are fairly frequent kernel updates, so it is good to stay up to date on that front.

 

At some point when I find time I'll try to setup a proper package repository, then you can get updates automatically.

 

 

 

Jussi,

 

I'm still struggling with getting the native DSD support installed on my linux machine. I downloaded the LTS version of Ubuntu Studio 14.04.3 It appears that the kernal that is installed is Linux 3.19.0-25-low latency (x86_64). Was this not the correct version of Ubuntu Studio? Not sure how to reconcile that with the 3.13.0-76 that you have listed.

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Thanks, I think I might be giving up on Linux for the time being. I've spent several days trying to get just one driver to install for my new graphics card so I can use CUDA, no luck. I'm afraid I'm too much of a Mac user... took me 10 minutes to install a new graphics card update the driver, install Cuda, and get it to work. You pay a premium for that apple control but it does make things easy and works in the end. Maybe I'll retreat to Windows 10 on this machinr until the official ubuntu 16 release is out... hopefully that will also play better with Nvidia drivers.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

You don't need to install CUDA, just the official nVidia display drivers.

 

Win10 is probably easier to install, you need the OS and nVidia drivers from here:

Drivers - Download NVIDIA Drivers

(you can get also Linux drivers from the same place)

 

The normal Ubuntu Desktop version also offers the official nVidia driver install, but 16.04 probably comes with much more recent drivers, set to be released Apr 21st.

 

Ubuntu Studio is much more bare bones than normal Ubuntu Desktop. If you still have patience left you could try the normal 15.10 from here:

Download Ubuntu Desktop | Download | Ubuntu

Usually it offers the official nVidia drivers for installation when it detects nVidia GPU, but I have not checked how recent the offered driver is. The 900-series cards are pretty fresh, so those need also fresh drivers.

 

Thanks, I'll give 15.10 a shot. I'm also going to take a look at audiolinux as another alternative. Really Don't like working with MS OS's so I'm going to try to have another go or two at linux...I know some unix...because of working with OSX since the beginning...but I'm just not familiar with linux.

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Thanks, I'll give 15.10 a shot. I'm also going to take a look at audiolinux as another alternative. Really Don't like working with MS OS's so I'm going to try to have another go or two at linux...I know some unix...because of working with OSX since the beginning...but I'm just not familiar with linux.

 

Robert

 

Ok, I did a clean install of 15.10 and updated to the latest version. I went into software and Updates and went to the proprietary driver tab. I selected "Using NVIDIA binary driver-version 352.63 from nvidia-352 (proprietary, tested) and hit apply changes. I then restarted the machine. When I go to the NVIDIA X Server Settings it says it is using 352.63. This is the driver from December and is both GTX970 and CUDA compatible.

 

However, if I try to install CUDA-Z it says that no CUDA compatible devices are found. Likewise when I install HQplayer 3.13.0_beta7, check SDM pipeline and CUDA enabled, restart HQplayer and then try to play music it says offload=resampler=disabled. When I have tried to download the NVIDIA driver directly from them and update I end up with a machine that won't boot in 14.04...I've tried several different procedures and all failed the same way...end up having to do a clean install...so I'm a little hesitant to try anything again without some who knows what they are doing.

 

Any suggestions?

 

Robert

[zorntel]

Ubuntu Studio is much more bare bones than normal Ubuntu Desktop. If you still have patience left you could try the normal 15.10 from here:

Download Ubuntu Desktop | Download | Ubuntu

Usually it offers the official nVidia drivers for installation when it detects nVidia GPU, but I have not checked how recent the offered driver is. The 900-series cards are pretty fresh, so those need also fresh drivers.

 

The "official nVidia drivers" that come with the installation are not working for me. No CUDA. Can't seem to get the ones from the nVidia to install. Do you know what you did to get them to go?

 

You don't need to install CUDA, just the official nVidia display drivers.

 

Win10 is probably easier to install, you need the OS and nVidia drivers from here:

Drivers - Download NVIDIA Drivers

(you can get also Linux drivers from the same place)

 

 

Went back to Windows 10 and installed the official driver. Worked right away...including CUDA in HQplayer. Wow...what a difference in processing! DSD512...no problem. DSD256 with polysinc...no problem. CUDA really bumps things up...just like with my mac pro.

 

Just wish I could make it work with linux.

 

Now off to the listening tests.

 

Robert