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The end of de USB discussion: I2S bridge


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Ok I'll bite.

 

The solution to what problem exactly ?

 

I only see piles of jitter.

 

Are you from Pink Faun ?

 

Greetings from Holland as well,

Peter

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XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

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Hello,

 

This is probably the solution for computer and dac connection. In my Dac (Pink Faun 2.24 Dac) and my computer (windows 7) it works like a dream!

 

It can be build in in almost every dac. And in the computer it's just plug 'n play.

 

I2S Bridge

 

greetings from Holland.

 

Froex

I2S made a brief flurry a while back but, although it works, didn't stick. AudioAlchemy and SonicFrontiers (Anthem) had commercial products. I wrote a pair of articles many years back (1995-7) about how to adapt the output of a player for I2S. They appeared in Audio Amateur which has morphed into AudioXpress. The articles were called "Get on the Bus" parts 1 and 2. While the specific devices referred to are a bit dated, the general principles are the same.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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I2S made a brief flurry a while back but, although it works, didn't stick. AudioAlchemy and SonicFrontiers (Anthem) had commercial products. I wrote a pair of articles many years back (1995-7) about how to adapt the output of a player for I2S. They appeared in Audio Amateur which has morphed into AudioXpress. The articles were called "Get on the Bus" parts 1 and 2. While the specific devices referred to are a bit dated, the general principles are the same.

 

Kal that brings back some memories

 

 

Today these manufacturers "Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 outputs both differential HDMI I2S and single-ended RJ-45 I2S. it works with W4S DAC2, PS Audio PWD, Northstar, Stello, Empirical Audio, Perpetual Technologies, Buffalo " these companies appear to have I2S working quite well

The Truth Is Out There

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Well, it will be quite hard to find a DAC which does not use i2s internally. So for that matter all DACs will appear to have i2s working quite well. Our DAC too can have an official i2s input, but the reason for it is beyond me.

 

But the culprit is in you own text :

 

Today these manufacturers "Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 outputs both differential HDMI I2S and single-ended RJ-45 I2S.

 

This is a converter - not a PC. Yeah, you knew that. ;-) But the point is

a. this is fed with USB;

b. this allows for at least theoretically "doable" short i2s cable runs.

 

Ad b. : Not so much with a PC (but a bit depending on where you can put it in your rack of course).

 

What I mean in the end is that such converters (meant to let your legacy DACs work while nicely fed over USB) are justified. Of course the DAC involved still needs to accept a mod for i2s input when i2s is chosen for the converter's output (but more common would be SPDIF), but what it is about is the USB interface now being "allowed" to use.

Of course someone (Pink Faun) can now tell that USB can be avoided after all by means of a PCI(e) card outputting i2s, but this doesn't seem much right to me (the piles of jitter).

 

Otherwise you don't want to know how often I received the question whether something like an OffRamp wouldn't be better for interface. Apparently it is hard to grasp that this is beating around the bush because more direct that completely direct is not possible (so, direct USB to i2s and FYI how e.g. a today's Buffalo is meant to work).

 

Maybe I myself don't get it ...

Peter

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2      Ethernet^2     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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Hello,

 

This is probably the solution for computer and dac connection. In my Dac (Pink Faun 2.24 Dac) and my computer (windows 7) it works like a dream!

 

It can be build in in almost every dac. And in the computer it's just plug 'n play.

 

http://pinkfaun.nl/portal/productaanbod/dac-streaming-audio/1440-i2s-bridge

 

greetings from Holland.

 

Froex

 

Hey Froex, welcome to the forums.

 

And thanks for bringing more attention to this little piece from Pink Faun. I learned of it about a month or two ago and thought it'd work great with my PWD Mkii. I haven't bought one yet, or any I2s output/convertor for that matter, but I'd love to see it get more attention and ~hopefully~ a few more reviews.

 

As for PeterST, yes, we're all welcome to our own views on the topic. Since you're in Holland as well, you haven't bought the card, trialed it, and come to any conclusions have you? When you're going to talk down an approach (internal PCIe->I2s->I2s input on DAC->internal use of I2s in said DAC vs. internal USB->USB input on DAC->internal conversion to I2s->internal use of I2s in said DAC), that's generally the best way to make your results actually have value as opposed to someone simply interpreting them as condemning an approach that's different than one that your flagship component lacks ;-)

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Hello,

 

This is probably the solution for computer and dac connection. In my Dac (Pink Faun 2.24 Dac) and my computer (windows 7) it works like a dream!

 

It can be build in in almost every dac. And in the computer it's just plug 'n play.

 

I2S Bridge

 

greetings from Holland.

 

Froex

 

Hey Froex, welcome to the forums.

 

And thanks for bringing more attention to this little piece from Pink Faun. I learned of it about a month or two ago and thought it'd work great with my PWD Mkii. I haven't bought one yet, or any I2s output/convertor for that matter, but I'd love to see it get more attention and ~hopefully~ a few more reviews.

 

As for PeterST, yes, we're all welcome to our own views on the topic. Since you're in Holland as well, you haven't bought the card, trialed it, and come to any conclusions have you? When you're going to talk down an approach (internal PCIe->I2s->I2s input on DAC->internal use of I2s in said DAC vs. internal USB->USB input on DAC->internal conversion to I2s->internal use of I2s in said DAC), that's generally the best way to make your results actually have value as opposed to someone simply interpreting them as condemning an approach that's different than one that your flagship component lacks ;-)

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Kal that brings back some memories

Today these manufacturers "Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5 outputs both differential HDMI I2S and single-ended RJ-45 I2S. it works with W4S DAC2, PS Audio PWD, Northstar, Stello, Empirical Audio, Perpetual Technologies, Buffalo " these companies appear to have I2S working quite well

It always did work but the problem was wide enough acceptance of I2S for intercomponent connections.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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;-)

 

Hey Ben,

 

You can see I started with that wink so you'll know the atmosphere I'm writing this in. So all OK, but ...

 

you haven't bought the card, trialed it, and come to any conclusions have you?

 

What about no necessity for buying such a card because we produced our own in the past ?

Yes, really so and those who followed the path to the development of the NOS1 DAC know, as a quite large forum topic shows all that. Also, the first version of the NOS1 contained exactly that, but in good fashion because of 10cm i2s length only. This was for a reason of course. Btw, that interface was totally unique and somewhere on CA there has been a topic with pictures of it, but I'm afraid the pictures vanished when the forum changed forum software. But alas, you will believe me I think.

 

On a side note, this PCI(e) to i2s is nothing much new, and might you not know it, it was Steve Nugent himself trialing with that like me, and actually many others in the DIY scene.

 

All this is not so important, if only the technical merits are understood a.o. the longer the length the more jitter implied. For some this is easy because it's just electrical knowledge for others it needs listening first. That's fine. But it does not mean that I need that - working on such things all the time.

 

that's generally the best way to make your results actually have value

 

Oh, I would like to do that, but I'm afraid if you pose it like that, while not accepting

a. the longer the wires the more jitter implied;

b. the clock at the PC side doing that;

c. the clock at the DAC side NOT doing that

then I'm afraid I don't know where top begin because it is too basic, plus this very forum is totally full with it already.

 

So nothing much left than wink a bit back.

'-))

 

 

PS: You should be able to receive a quite objective answer from Steve Nugent, but I'm afraid he has been banned from this forum.

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2      Ethernet^2     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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...

Oh, I would like to do that, but I'm afraid if you pose it like that, while not accepting

a. the longer the wires the more jitter implied;

b. the clock at the PC side doing that;

c. the clock at the DAC side NOT doing that

then I'm afraid I don't know where top begin because it is too basic, plus this very forum is totally full with it already.

 

So nothing much left than wink a bit back.

'-))

 

 

PS: You should be able to receive a quite objective answer from Steve Nugent, but I'm afraid he has been banned from this forum.

Hi Peter,

 

perhaps it's our reciprocal English, but what do you mean in your c. (evidenced)?

Are you saying that if the clock is at the DAC side there is no jitter?!

Are you saying that I2S to work has to have clock at DAC side and act as master?! Doesn't MSB Technology's I2S Pro interface work like that?!

Thanks

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Hi there Bibo, hope all is well.

 

If the clock is at the DAC side there is less jitter; Outside any asynchronous interface and further all the same, there is less jitter because the wires (the cable) are shorter.

Outside that, but it's a bit of the same, when the interface is asynchronous the part of the cable from PC (transport) to the DAC is jitter free because it will be normal data and not "audio data" subject to jitter.

 

Any clock at the DAC side with asynchronous connection can be regarded master (read : not so with e.g. SPDIF).

 

With i2s and the clock at the PC (transport) side, that clock is master too. Difference with the above ? there's one clock (oscillator per base rate (44.1/48)) only. This of course in the simple setup, with the more sophisticated one being a PLL in-DAC. But this can hardly be a subject here (because I don't think any "mod" (for this card) will allow to utilize an existing PLL and making that for the situation is a horse behind the wagon).

 

Are you saying that I2S to work has to have clock at DAC side and act as master?!

 

No, not at all. Like Kal said, it will work (with sufficient reflection protection). But it is 100% easy to see how the clock signal is deteriorated compared to how it can be. This is partly reflections, and for a larger deal the noisy environment which a PC is. DACs are way less noisy (if all has been done right of course) and further with the notice that all noise on the clock line implies jitter. Outside of that we also have supply noise and this now generates "noise" in the oscillator itself (it just can't be as stable (without adding jitter) when the supply to it already is noisy).

 

Doesn't MSB Technology's I2S Pro interface work like that?!

 

I didn't investigate that. But if that is an i2s interface where the DAC's end is incorporated (functionally) then the only thing I can see with an oscillator at that end is a PLL (this is good). If there now is no oscillator at the interface's end, it's or a USB interface or something else that implies all to remain data up to the input of the interface. What's also possible I think is that the interface itself is SPDIF, then reclocked and then proceeds as i2s.

Many ways can lead to Rome here, and I think we all try to find the best paths to it. No need to repeat my first post. '-)

 

Regards,

Peter

Lush^3-e      Lush^2      Blaxius^2      Ethernet^2     HDMI^2     XLR^2

XXHighEnd (developer)

Phasure NOS1 24/768 Async USB DAC (manufacturer)

Phasure Mach III Audio PC with Linear PSU (manufacturer)

Orelino & Orelo MKII Speakers (designer/supplier)

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