Audiophile Equipment and Downloads - Cost vs. Value and Performance.

[realhifi]

None of the above. I sure used to purchase vintage gear back in the day but mine was always the Spendor, Conrad Johnson, Rogers, Naim, Linn variety. Had the real old stuff years and years ago. Was fun but wouldn't search it out today.

[Paul R]

I have had a few people, mostly some local guys here, assert that price "always" equates to quality. I do not agree with that, but since these guys are really BTOs, with systems that cost as much as my house or more, I wondered.

 

The little poll/survey is anonymous just for that reason. If someone wants to check those options, then nobody will know who they are or be able to pick on them. I note that a person or two has the opinion that expensive cables will improve their system, and they are probably right. But I bet they have some really hot systems to start with.

 

One thing about the whole hobby that constantly amazes me is how often we have to change our thinking and opinions about equipment and gear. At one time, I would have thought - spend $15K on a DAC and keep it forever. Now, it is more like, spend $600 on a DAC and change it in a couple years for another $600 DAC. The performance and quality will most likely have increased a lot. (Change $600 to whatever figure you like there...)

 

The digital world doesn't seem to be as staid as the amplifier or turntable world.

 

-Paul

 

 

 

The only option that I checked was that I spent more than $15K in the past 3 years. Most of the other options were not acceptable, especially when the absolute term "always" is included. Note that no one has yet checked those.

[realhifi]

I have had a few people, mostly some local guys here, assert that price "always" equates to quality. I do not agree with that, but since these guys are really BTOs, with systems that cost as much as my house or more, I wondered.

 

The little poll/survey is anonymous just for that reason. If someone wants to check those options, then nobody will know who they are or be able to pick on them. I note that a person or two has the opinion that expensive cables will improve their system, and they are probably right. But I bet they have some really hot systems to start with.

 

One thing about the whole hobby that constantly amazes me is how often we have to change our thinking and opinions about equipment and gear. At one time, I would have thought - spend $15K on a DAC and keep it forever. Now, it is more like, spend $600 on a DAC and change it in a couple years for another $600 DAC. The performance and quality will most likely have increased a lot. (Change $600 to whatever figure you like there...)

 

The digital world doesn't seem to be as staid as the amplifier or turntable world.

 

-Paul

 

I agree that using the absolute "always" to determine if something is better or not strictly because of cost is not acceptable simply because using absolutes seem to "never" work. That said, I also disagree with a tendency to "never" think that spending more or even lot's more, will not bring improvements. There really are no absolutes in this world of audio reproduction and I have seen where there are modest costing components that sound terrific and costlier ones not so terrific, to modest ones sounding....well, very modest, to very expensive ones sounding utterly sublime and everything in between. What I have not heard in a long long time is the giant killer, the thing that tips everything on it's ear as far as price to performance ratio. When it does happen it is usually a bolt of lightening and one off that surprises everyone. It does not happen often. Modest equipment usually sounds modest, a lot of pricier gear (certainly not all) sounds (and of course looks) pricier. Everybody wants the Apple computer that costs $200 or the pair of speakers that sell for $1000 that sound like a pair of Sonus fabers. Fact is, the old saying still goes for much of the time. You get what you pay for.

 

PS. If you haven't yet, you should go to a show that has Nordost doing there famous cable demos. They always use fairly modest equipment and slowly move up their line starting with power cords to let people hear for themselves whether cables make a difference or not and if it's worth it to spend good money on higher priced cables for even modest systems. I know I'll get flack for this but hey...fire away. *s*

[wkhanna]

Aside from my DAC, all of my gear has been purchased used (though my phono cartridges are re-tipped) & my speakers & PC server are DIY I built myself. As with my cars & motorcycles, I have found careful research & shopping for used items can allow you to ‘live’ a bit above your normal means. I could never afford gear the likes of which I currently have otherwise. Affordability (relative to my world) is key for me.

 

Not all vintage or used gear is necessarily a good value, either. And older components will nearly always need refurbishment. Whether you do it yourself or have someone else handle it, this is a cost you must factor into the total.

 

If you are willing to invest the time & assume the potential risks (i.e. no factory warranty, deadbeat sellers, shipping damage, etc.) that go with buying older gear, it can be cost very effective. I have put my 20+ year old pre-amp up against some much newer $5k units without embarrassment. Oh, wait.....nobody is using pre-amps anymore!

[sandyk]

I have put my 20+ year old pre-amp up against some much newer $5k units without embarrassment. Oh, wait.....nobody is using pre-amps anymore!

 

A good preamp coupled with a decent DAC can often beat a typical DAC/player with a digital volume control.

[Paul R]

PS. If you haven't yet, you should go to a show that has Nordost doing there famous cable demos. They always use fairly modest equipment and slowly move up their line starting with power cords to let people hear for themselves whether cables make a difference or not and if it's worth it to spend good money on higher priced cables for even modest systems. I know I'll get flack for this but hey...fire away. *s*

 

I saw that a year or so ago, and was very pleased and interested in the demo. I wish everyone could go to that, it would certainly put at least a few honest questions into some folk's minds.

 

-Paul

[Allan F]

A good preamp coupled with a decent DAC can often beat a typical DAC/player with a digital volume control.

 

+1

[rwwjr44]

"Always" not the word I would have used.

[Daphne]

The current high cost of high end audio is incredible. Since I am seeking a new system for a new home I am experiencing sticker shock. In the past I would always upgrade one or two items at a time, and if I parted with five figures every other year it did not seem like I was spending all that much. However, starting with an empty room can easily add up to a six figure project.

 

I had this idea of assembling a system with a much improved sound quality than I currently have in the home I am selling. After doing some research and long hours of auditioning at audio stores, I have come to the conclusion that there are some very nice high end audio components, and then quite a number of ultra high priced audio components. There is a large price gap from an excellent component to one that is perhaps 3% to 5% better. I find myself asking if I am willing to part with twice as much for that slightly extra sound quality.

 

Does a higher price automatically mean higher quality? I do not believe it does. From what I have seen from a good amount of high end components, they all exhibit excellent quality construction and sound quality. However, we all know that appearance can be deceiving. In my opinion, higher quality should include reliability, longevity, with dependable and responsive customer service. Without this added value, I am unwilling to pay a higher price and will move on to another brand.

 

It is justifiable to charge $3000 for a USB cable? How about $10K point of entry speakers? Justifiable – That which can be shown to be or can be defended as being just, right, or warranted. Manufacturers can easily supply a long list of reasons and excuses to justify their retail prices. If the target audience is unwilling to pay the asking price, then volume wholesalers will have them for sale on E-Bay for pennies on the dollar.

 

I tend to be a cautious and frugal buyer, and like to think I apply some degree of common sense. However, for an unhinged audiophile, I tend to believe it is all about perceived value. Nothing more than a feeling you received a good value for the price you were willing to pay.

 

I have a good example. I have a long time (more than 30 years) audiophile friend. Last year he purchased a pair of Transparent Opus speaker cables; a $36,000 investment to connect a pair of $24,000 speakers to a $10,000 amplifier, yielding a 1% improvement over the previous cables. I did not question his logic because he was quite pleased with himself. When it comes to spending that much on a single pair of 3 meter wires my perceived value is completely different. If someone asked me to put out my hands, and placed those cables in one hand and a $36,000 chunk of gold in the other (which is about an ounce shy of 2 pounds by today’s price per troy ounce), then asked which one I would keep, well… those cables would hit the floor before the word “keep” passed their lips, and I would have a death grip on that bar of gold.

 

Receiving a value for the price from anything in the audio market comes down to a personal feeling of satisfaction. Although, from the way some audiophiles constantly bitch on this forum it seems their perceived value can be summed up in the words of Mick Jagger: “I can’t get no…”

[realhifi]

The current high cost of high end audio is incredible. Since I am seeking a new system for a new home I am experiencing sticker shock. In the past I would always upgrade one or two items at a time, and if I parted with five figures every other year it did not seem like I was spending all that much. However, starting with an empty room can easily add up to a six figure project.

 

I had this idea of assembling a system with a much improved sound quality than I currently have in the home I am selling. After doing some research and long hours of auditioning at audio stores, I have come to the conclusion that there are some very nice high end audio components, and then quite a number of ultra high priced audio components. There is a large price gap from an excellent component to one that is perhaps 3% to 5% better. I find myself asking if I am willing to part with twice as much for that slightly extra sound quality.

 

Does a higher price automatically mean higher quality? I do not believe it does. From what I have seen from a good amount of high end components, they all exhibit excellent quality construction and sound quality. However, we all know that appearance can be deceiving. In my opinion, higher quality should include reliability, longevity, with dependable and responsive customer service. Without this added value, I am unwilling to pay a higher price and will move on to another brand.

 

It is justifiable to charge $3000 for a USB cable? How about $10K point of entry speakers? Justifiable – That which can be shown to be or can be defended as being just, right, or warranted. Manufacturers can easily supply a long list of reasons and excuses to justify their retail prices. If the target audience is unwilling to pay the asking price, then volume wholesalers will have them for sale on E-Bay for pennies on the dollar.

 

I tend to be a cautious and frugal buyer, and like to think I apply some degree of common sense. However, for an unhinged audiophile, I tend to believe it is all about perceived value. Nothing more than a feeling you received a good value for the price you were willing to pay.

 

I have a good example. I have a long time (more than 30 years) audiophile friend. Last year he purchased a pair of Transparent Opus speaker cables; a $36,000 investment to connect a pair of $24,000 speakers to a $10,000 amplifier, yielding a 1% improvement over the previous cables. I did not question his logic because he was quite pleased with himself. When it comes to spending that much on a single pair of 3 meter wires my perceived value is completely different. If someone asked me to put out my hands, and placed those cables in one hand and a $36,000 chunk of gold in the other (which is about an ounce shy of 2 pounds by today’s price per troy ounce), then asked which one I would keep, well… those cables would hit the floor before the word “keep” passed their lips, and I would have a death grip on that bar of gold.

 

Receiving a value for the price from anything in the audio market comes down to a personal feeling of satisfaction. Although, from the way some audiophiles constantly bitch on this forum it seems their perceived value can be summed up in the words of Mick Jagger: “I can’t get no…”

 

First off, great post. I agree that the law of diminishing returns is HUGE in the high end audio market, maybe more than just about any market segment out there today.

 

There are however great values in the high end also which can bring lasting and very tangible rewards for years and years. Two companies that come to mind are Sonus faber and Naim Audio. When you purchase a set of Sonus faber Olympica III's along with a set of electronics from Naim you can rest assured that those pieces will bring joy, excitement, interest, engagement for years and years along with the fact that both companies will be around when or if you ever have any issues with the products not to mention that the components themselves will just improve and become a part of your life for many years also. Things built to last, built to be around forever.

 

I envy you that you are building a new system today and wish you luck in finding that balance of price, pride of ownership and value that we all seek.

 

PS. As full disclosure I am an audio/video dealer but do not sell either of the brands mentioned.

[Allan F]

I have a good example. I have a long time (more than 30 years) audiophile friend. Last year he purchased a pair of Transparent Opus speaker cables; a $36,000 investment to connect a pair of $24,000 speakers to a $10,000 amplifier, yielding a 1% improvement over the previous cables. I did not question his logic because he was quite pleased with himself.

 

IMO, anyone who spends $36,000 on speaker cables to connect a pair of $24,000 speakers is in need of a good psychiatrist. While I appreciate and certainly do not disagree with your philosophy of seeking value for your audiophile dollar, I would hardly call your friend a good example of ignoring value. Rather, meaning no disrespect, I would call it a ridiculous example of someone who apparently hasn't got even the slightest clue. But, it's his money.

[crisnee]

IMO, anyone who spends $36,000 on speaker cables to connect a pair of $24,000 speakers is in need of a good psychiatrist. While I appreciate and certainly do not disagree with your philosophy of seeking value for your audiophile dollar, I would hardly call your friend a good example of ignoring value. Rather, meaning no disrespect, I would call it a ridiculous example of someone who apparently hasn't got even the slightest clue. But, it's his money.

 

Money is meaningless when you have more than you need or care about. So why not spend whatever on whatever for a slight improvement?

 

If I had all the money I ever wanted (assuming I was otherwise the same person as I am now) I would spend whatever it takes to get what I considered the best sounding products to create my audio system, be it $60,000 cables and a $5,000 dollar amp or the other way around. I would want to know what the absolutely supposed best in audio equipment made my recordings sound like.

 

As to spending more on cables than speakers, it seems crazy; but what if he thinks he has the best speakers in the world? Does it make sense for him to get more expensive speakers just to make his cable purchase seem sane?

 

And I write this when personally I feel that cables hardly matter, if they matter at all. But then I can't afford them, so that's convenient.

 

Chris

[coxhaus]

I assume audio gear would include cables, room treatment and power conditioning and not just hardware so I voted.

 

I like vintage gear especially old tube gear but you did not put a date in as I have an old Scott System with some AR speakers which I think are fun. I had them at my mountain house until my wife got DirectTV. I did not like integrating the TV with the Scott so I switched and now I have an extra system.

[Allan F]

Money is meaningless when you have more than you need or care about. So why not spend whatever on whatever for a slight improvement?

 

As to spending more on cables than speakers, it seems crazy; but what if he thinks he has the best speakers in the world? Does it make sense for him to get more expensive speakers just to make his cable purchase seem sane?

 

Now, just think for a minute. How could any sane person think he has the best speakers in the world if he has to spend $36,000 on cables before he is satisfied with them? Of course, anyone can spend whatever they want. But that doesn't equate with sanity. If you would really spend $60,000 on cables for a $5,000 amp, IMO you belong in the same looney bin as Daphne's friend.

[DavidL]

No to all.

[fallington]

I would hope that $36k would buy enough expectation bias for at least a 5% improvement in sound quality .

[Paul R]

IMO, anyone who spends $36,000 on speaker cables to connect a pair of $24,000 speakers is in need of a good psychiatrist. While I appreciate and certainly do not disagree with your philosophy of seeking value for your audiophile dollar, I would hardly call your friend a good example of ignoring value. Rather, meaning no disrespect, I would call it a ridiculous example of someone who apparently hasn't got even the slightest clue. But, it's his money.

 

Making a couple assumptions there that may or may not be warranted. First, did he pay $36k for the cables, or is that merely the list price? Some very high dollar cables are available, with negotiation, at a fraction of their list cost. Perhaps he paid less for them than for the amp. Who knows...?

 

The second assumption is that to this fellow, there was only a 1% improvement. Perhaps his enjoyment of, and pride in his system increased by 50%. Again, who knows?

 

In any case, if the guy could afford them, and wanted them, who are we to pass judgement?

[Jud]

So think of the recent discussion this way: A total of $70,000 to spend on amp, cables, speakers. How would you divvy that up? For me it would be something like Spectral DMA-360 Series 2, $10,000, or DMA-400RS mono, $28,000 a pair; Vandersteen 5A Carbon, ~$27,000 or Rockport Atria, ~$22,000; and Omega Mikro Planar Ebony LCX Active speaker cables ~$5500 (8 ft pair). That would leave me with anywhere from $5,000 to $32,000 in my pocket for music and a great big smile.

 

Edit: Or Rockport Avior ~$30,000...ah, dream on.

[Allan F]

Making a couple assumptions there that may or may not be warranted. First, did he pay $36k for the cables, or is that merely the list price? Some very high dollar cables are available, with negotiation, at a fraction of their list cost. Perhaps he paid less for them than for the amp. Who knows...?

 

The second assumption is that to this fellow, there was only a 1% improvement. Perhaps his enjoyment of, and pride in his system increased by 50%. Again, who knows?

 

In any case, if the guy could afford them, and wanted them, who are we to pass judgement?

 

Dunno why you are going out of your way to dream up excuses or justifications for this this apparent folly. I said nothing about a 1% improvement. Of course he can spend the money any way he wants to. But, anyone with even a bit of knowledge of this hobby knows that the money could be far better spent. And, who are you to suggest that I am not entitled to express my opinion?