There's been a lot of talk about this sampling rate, maybe...maybe too much talk

[Boris75]

Jordi Savall is a good example. I'm also a big fan having seen him perform a number of time. He has some 100 some odd releases. Of those, about 90 or so are only available as standard cd. I've looked at that thread, and it doesn't contain very sophisticated or useful reviews. I'll stick with the reviews in gramophone or Alex Ross in the New Yorker. Although I know there is a view that any old listener is as knowledgeable as a trained musicologist, but I don't buy that idea.

 

I have got about 30 Jordi Savall SACDs.

[Jud]

 

I have got about 30 Jordi Savall SACDs.

 

A few favorites, so I can see if there are some I don't have?

 

BTW, Presto in the UK is a good source for some though not all Savall discs. They are currently having a sale on BBC award winners, and I believe I remember a couple of these as being among Alex Ross's favorites of the past year.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hey Guys - Please keep the provocative photos off CA.

[InfernoSTi]

There is another thread in the DAC section regarding sampling which can include upsampling of 16/44. Wouldn't it make sense if all else where equal (not saying that is the case), that a higher beginning sample rate would be preferred when up sampling? If so why? If not, why not?

 

John

[Boris75]

A few favorites, so I can see if there are some I don't have?

 

They depend a bit on the mindset I find myself in. Without order of preference, here are some:

 

• Bach: Brandenburg concertos, Mass in B minor, Orchestral Suites.
  
• Marais: Suittes d'un goût étranger. The five-disc SACD remastering of his Marais recordings is also nice but not as much as the more recent two-disc Suittes d'un goût étranger in my opinion (because the playing is more energetic on the latter).
  
• Cant de la Sibil-la, Catalyunia
  
• Ostinato
  
• Dowland: Lachrimae and Galliards after reordering the tracks using a playlist as I really don't like the way the disc mixes up both. Without reordering, this SACD sounds to me as if I clicked on "shuffle" inadvertently.
  

 

There are quite a lot other ones that I like (La Folia and Altre Folie for instance) though I listen to them less often.

[Boris75]

Hey Guys - Please keep the provocative photos off CA.

 

I liked El Corso's picture which I thought was OK (perhaps this is cultural - here in Europe nobody would have seen it as offensive) and very funny in the context. I had a good laugh. I am glad I saw it before it was pulled.

[Jud]

They depend a bit on the mindset I find myself in. Without order of preference, here are some:

 

• Bach: Brandenburg concertos, Mass in B minor, Orchestral Suites.
  
• Marais: Suittes d'un goût étranger. The five-disc SACD remastering of his Marais recordings is also nice but not as much as the more recent two-disc Suittes d'un goût étranger in my opinion (because the playing is more energetic on the latter).
  
• Cant de la Sibil-la, Catalyunia
  
• Ostinato
  
• Dowland: Lachrimae and Galliards after reordering the tracks using a playlist as I really don't like the way the disc mixes up both. Without reordering, this SACD sounds to me as if I clicked on "shuffle" inadvertently.
  

 

There are quite a lot other ones that I like (La Folia and Altre Folie for instance) though I listen to them less often.

 

I very much like the ones I have (which is all of them except the Marais), with the exception of the Orchestral Suites, which for some reason have never grabbed me, and the possible exception of the B Minor Mass, which I have not had a chance to listen to enough to form an opinion on yet. I must definitely get the Marais, because the Touts Les Matins du Monde soundtrack (Savall playing numerous Marais pieces) is something I am absolutely in love with. Wonderful that you happened to make your comment, allowing me to learn about another Savall disc I'm sure I'll enjoy.

[flatmap]

I must definitely get the Marais, because the Touts Les Matins du Monde soundtrack (Savall playing numerous Marais pieces) is something I am absolutely in love with.

+1

This is just a lovely recording imbued throughout with Savall's humane musical insight.

[astrotoy]

Actually, there is a perfect example of that I own. The new reissue of the Solti Ring that includes both standard CDs and a blue ray with a lossless 24 bit version. I've done my own limited double blind testing between the two with myself and a few other Wagner nuts I know. No one was able to reliability distinguish between the two versions playing the identical tracks. I then compare Solti to the Keilberth ring, a live recording from 1955. Much less sophisticated recording equipment and available only on standard CD. The Keilberth ring is a much more emotional and accurate to Wagner's vision than Solti. Both Keilberth and Solti feature Han Hotter as Wotan, but Hotter is so much better in the Keilberth Ring, with nuances that Solti couldn't get (he was younger and in better voice also). Its the performance not the illusion of better reproduction claimed by high rez.

 

The 1955 Keiberth Ring is not just available on CD. IMHO the very best version of the Keilberth Ring is the Testament vinyl issue. Much superior to the CD.

 

Larry

[Keyser Söze]

With the launch Pono, I've heard more noise about 192k than ever before. From the celebrity cheerleaders to those that say it is totally unnecessary.

 

Being relatively new to the HiFi game, I'm not completely jaded...yet ☺. I would like to give it try. For those that are proponents, can you recommend a favorite recording that you feel really showcases the purported advantages?

 

Regards,

Clay

 

I have to be brutally honest, but is there really any benefit above a 48khz sampling rate? I mean if I really need to have the absolute best sound quality, I'd rather spend the money these downloads are going to cost and get a record instead now that I have a turntable. It's too bad they don't still make reel-to-reel tapes or I'd buy one of those.

[Keyser Söze]

The 1955 Keiberth Ring is not just available on CD. IMHO the very best version of the Keilberth Ring is the Testament vinyl issue. Much superior to the CD.

 

Larry

 

 

I hear that a lot with CD and vinyl and I can't help but wonder why they master most CD's these days so terribly. The iPod generation is not going to buy a physical medium, they will go after the most convenient method - a download. I really wish CD would be mastered toward people who actually care what the music sounds like.

[sandyk]

I'd rather spend the money these downloads are going to cost and get a record instead now that I have a turntable

 

On the other hand, many people are now converting their vinyl collection to 24/192, reporting that if done properly it sounds virtually identical to their LP, then putting the LP away in safe storage.

[Fabithierry]

To Me. The High Sample Rates and 24 bit depth are more significant for the audio of Movies. With the Music, a CD Quality is more than enough to me.

[RealAudio]

The 1955 Keiberth Ring is not just available on CD. IMHO the very best version of the Keilberth Ring is the Testament vinyl issue. Much superior to the CD.

 

Larry

 

 

Sure, nothing adds more to Wagner than to have to change a record every 20 or 30 minutes.

[Paul R]

I have to be brutally honest, but is there really any benefit above a 48khz sampling rate? I mean if I really need to have the absolute best sound quality, I'd rather spend the money these downloads are going to cost and get a record instead now that I have a turntable. It's too bad they don't still make reel-to-reel tapes or I'd buy one of those.

 

Maybe. Or Maybe not. It obviously depends upon what the source of the music is.

 

A 24/192K transcription from an original audio tape sounds wonderful, despite the fact one can sometimes notice that they are listening to a tape. A 24/192K transcript of something originally recorded at 24/48 isn't usually going to be very impressive. In this case, a remaster, at at any sample rate, is sometimes going to be much better than the original.

 

Basically, right now, it is a crap shoot. Sometimes you win, and sometimes you loose. I will point out however, if a record sounds good, recording the recored to digital format of just about any sample rate is going to sound good. Very much like the record. Indistinguishable in many cases, especially at high sample rates.

 

-Paul

[elcorso]

Hey Guys - Please keep the provocative photos off CA.

 

I'm sorry, I don't show anymore my new fiance picture.

 

I believe there is more "provocative" writing in some threads than from my picture...!

 

Best,

 

Roch

[astrotoy]

Sure, nothing adds more to Wagner than to have to change a record every 20 or 30 minutes.

 

Agreed. But I thought we were talking about sound quality, not convenience.

 

Larry

[Audio_ELF]

Agreed. But I thought we were talking about sound quality, not convenience.

 

Larry

Personally I think sound quality is irrelevant without the convinience. If we are talking about a system which is trying to put you in mind of the original performance than the convinience ADDs to that feeling by removing the changing records aspect. The whole "suspension of disbelief" is shattered when the needle comes to the end of a "side".

[RealAudio]

Personally I think sound quality is irrelevant without the convinience. If we are talking about a system which is trying to put you in mind of the original performance than the convinience ADDs to that feeling by removing the changing records aspect. The whole "suspension of disbelief" is shattered when the needle comes to the end of a "side".

 

 

Wagner can withstand the lousy reproduction and inconvenience and unreliability of an LP. I know there's pleasure in the ritual in taking out an lp, cleaning it, carefully placing it on a turntable, ignoring the fact it gets a little worse each time its played.

 

If you want to talk about emotional impact, go to a ring cycle performance, it's common to look around and see everyone in tears throughout the performance.

[astrotoy]

Wagner can withstand the lousy reproduction and inconvenience and unreliability of an LP. I know there's pleasure in the ritual in taking out an lp, cleaning it, carefully placing it on a turntable, ignoring the fact it gets a little worse each time its played.

 

If you want to talk about emotional impact, go to a ring cycle performance, it's common to look around and see everyone in tears throughout the performance.

 

Agreed. 2011 SF was my fourth complete Ring. Still waiting to go to Bayreuth for a Ring. Been to Wahnfried and the Festspielhaus, but not to a Ring there. BTW, my absolute favorite Ring is the 1953 Clemens Krauss Bayreuth Ring (out of about 20+ that I own).

 

Larry

[Paul R]

Wagner can withstand the lousy reproduction and inconvenience and unreliability of an LP. I know there's pleasure in the ritual in taking out an lp, cleaning it, carefully placing it on a turntable, ignoring the fact it gets a little worse each time its played.

 

If you want to talk about emotional impact, go to a ring cycle performance, it's common to look around and see everyone in tears throughout the performance.

 

 

Personally, for me, I prefer this performance of the Ring Cycle to just about any other... (except perhaps, "I shot the wrabbit...")...

 

[RealAudio]

Personally, for me, I prefer this performance of the Ring Cycle to just about any other... (except perhaps, "I shot the wrabbit...")...

 

 

 

A Philistine to the end. As part of the recent Theilemann ring, the CD set includes a 2 dvd set called "The World of the Ring", one hour for each opera. It not only has experts explaining what occurs, including one English speaker, the author of "Wagner and the Erotic Impulse", a fascinating book. They also include some remarkable editing sequences that consist of a pianist explaining a leitmotif, playing it and a not dropping a note transition to Theilemann conducting a dress rehearsal and several different ring cycle dvd performances. It's a truly remarkable set of DVDs with insights that I never realized. For instance, every opera in the ring cycle ends on a major key.

[gmgraves]

I have to be brutally honest, but is there really any benefit above a 48khz sampling rate?

 

 

Not really, not that I can see.. er hear. It is good for things like high-frequency phase coherence to get the sampling frequency real far away from the audible passband, but I believe that 48 KHz is far enough away. That gives one a 24 KHz high frequency cut-off, and no humans can hear that high, and few instruments create harmonics that go that high, and most microphones have little response at those frequencies. However, 24 or even 32-bit is a real advantage, and perhaps moving the sample rate to 88.2 KHz is even better, (giving a 48 KHz audio bandwidth) but I've yet to hear a difference.

 

I mean if I really need to have the absolute best sound quality, I'd rather spend the money these downloads are going to cost and get a record instead now that I have a turntable. It's too bad they don't still make reel-to-reel tapes or I'd buy one of those.

 

You can still get reel-to-reel tapes but they are tres cher and require a pro or semi-pro tape recorder to play them back. The folks I am thinking about, calling themselves The Tape Project sell a subscription of 6 tapes a year for $1800. No, that's not a typo. What you get are 10.5 inch reels recorded one-to-one from a second generation master at 15 inch-per-second speed and half track. I've heard a sampler at a Hi-Fi show, and it sounded very spectacular. Better than a 24-bit "high-resolution" digital transfer? Can't say and have to wonder whether anyone could. I'm inclined to say no, but that's in the ear of the beholder, now, isn't it?

 

the Tape Project

[gmgraves]

Personally, for me, I prefer this performance of the Ring Cycle to just about any other... (except perhaps, "I shot the wrabbit...")...

 

 

 

You mean you "...killed the Wabbit!" Funniest cartoon ever made IMHO. Bugs Bunny on that preposterous horse, in drag (again) as Brunnhilde, leaves me in tears of laughter - every time.

[Paul R]

A Philistine to the end. As part of the recent Theilemann ring, the CD set includes a 2 dvd set called "The World of the Ring", one hour for each opera. It not only has experts explaining what occurs, including one English speaker, the author of "Wagner and the Erotic Impulse", a fascinating book. They also include some remarkable editing sequences that consist of a pianist explaining a leitmotif, playing it and a not dropping a note transition to Theilemann conducting a dress rehearsal and several different ring cycle dvd performances. It's a truly remarkable set of DVDs with insights that I never realized. For instance, every opera in the ring cycle ends on a major key.

 

I spent an entire semester once, pretty much dedicated to studying the Ring Cycle. Interesting, but there is much better music out there to my taste. I enjoy performances of any part of it, but I much prefer the Italian or French operas more.