Sick and tired of music player hardware manufacturers? Vote and rant here...

[Audio_ELF]

Or perhaps they did not want to pay Sony a license to include DSD support in a $600 device?

(I may be remembering this wrong) but its my recollection there is no license fees to support DSF and DST file formats.

[Lighthouse]

So, how many people know that DSD is originally developed as cheaper alternative to PCM? It was originally developed because PCM's workflow is complex and expensive at that time (a long time ago). But it is not matter anymore when chips are dirt cheap these days.

 

I wish we stop talking or pushing DSD as alternative format. There is no merit other than making Sony richer.

[Hiro]

So, how many people know that DSD is originally developed as cheaper alternative to PCM? It was originally developed because PCM's workflow is complex and expensive at that time (a long time ago). But it is not matter anymore when chips are dirt cheap these days.

 

I wish we stop talking or pushing DSD as alternative format. There is no merit other than making Sony richer.

 

Maybe, if people realized that most PCM converters available on the market are really PCM-to-SDM converters they would stop talking trash about native SDM/DSD converters.

[Hiro]

(I may be remembering this wrong) but its my recollection there is no license fees to support DSF and DST file formats.

 

DSF is free AFAIK.

 

As for DST, I don't think it's used in computer audio applications.

[wappinghigh]

So, how many people know that DSD is originally developed as cheaper alternative to PCM? It was originally developed because PCM's workflow is complex and expensive at that time (a long time ago). But it is not matter anymore when chips are dirt cheap these days.

 

I wish we stop talking or pushing DSD as alternative format. There is no merit other than making Sony richer.

 

Again, with all due respect this has nothing to do with it..

 

What you, or anybody else may "think" about whether or not DSD should be "pushed as an alternative format", or whether or not Sony will get richer is irrelevant to this debate..

 

It's your bias...

 

That's my whole point.

 

Peoples bias gets drawn into a discussion like this all the time.... "doesn't sound different", "Supports Sony", "Can't be done". "why bother?".. and on and on it goes with a thousand different varients..

 

The whole point I am making is such bias should have *nothing* do with whether or not all formats should be supported by players..

 

They are just a format. Which is simply a way of delivering the music..

 

And now these different formats are out there, they should *all* be supported....

[wappinghigh]

Let me give you an analogy.

 

Most of us drive cars on roads.

 

So a person comes across a road.

 

It's a pathway upon which to travel by car from A to B.

 

Now as long as a car is within the legal and physical requirements to drive on that road, and the driver is obeying the law, does anybody tell a driver WHAT car they should drive on that road to get from A to B?

 

As an observing party, you might have an opinion about which car is better, but it's none of your business or the car manufacturers either, to tell the other person *which* car they should drive..

 

That's the car drivers decision

 

So why do people in the music industry and others have this bias: whereby they they think they can tell music listeners which file format to play on a piece of hardware in order to hear music?

[Hiro]

They are just a format.

 

A way of delivering the music..

 

And now these different formats are out there, they should *all* be supported....

 

Fortunately, an increasing number of manufacturers are getting the point...

 

[wappinghigh]

^ Ok..... Sure..

[wappinghigh]

Fortunately, an increasing number of manufacturers are getting the point...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11708[/ATTACH]

 

....That's great! So what is the make and model of this Receiver?

[Hiro]

^ Ok..

 

So what is the make and model of this receiver?

 

It's the Onkyo TX-NR636 I linked earlier

[wappinghigh]

^Wrong. Apologies...

 

It doesn't play all formats.

 

AFAIK it doesn't play multichannel DSD. And it doesn't play *any* multichannel (DSD or PCM) gaplessly via uPnP....

 

Check the specs. Or read this thread. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/av-receivers-pioneer-vsx-1124-k-19984/:)

[blueixus]

Wapping High, there seems logic in you view but examined further there is illogic too.

 

If you think every manufacturer should ensure their devices play every format what happens if endless formats appear on the market - (we actually seem quite close to that already). I suspect the prices of devices will go up and manufacturers will spend forever playing catch up with the latest whizzy format - thus bringing endless obsolescence of previous devices that can't play the latest format.

 

The second issue is simple; some formats are not compatible with exsisting devices. For instance a ladder/R2R dac will not play native DSD, it only works with PCM.

 

If you happen to prefer ladder dacs to say delta sigma dacs you will be quite happy to buy PCM only equipment.

 

The market decides that is how it is. A manufacturer takes a punt at what they think will sell.

 

Audio Note seems quite happy selling ladder dacs, clearly some, including me, are happy with just PCM and don't want the compromise the quality of that sound by adding DSD or other incompatible formats.

[Hiro]

^Wrong. Apologies...

 

It doesn't play all formats.

 

AFAIK it doesn't play multichannel DSD. And it doesn't play *any* multichannel (DSD or PCM) gaplessly via uPnP....

 

Check the specs. Or read this thread. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/av-receivers-pioneer-vsx-1124-k-19984/:)

 

Disappointing, if true.

 

On their website they write:

 

"Onkyo's commitment to Hi-Res audio playback and supports gapless playback and the ability to play DSD, Double DSD, FLAC and ALAC along with other Hi-Res formats."

 

Moreover, they list the following audio formats as supported "Streaming audio formats": (MP3, WMA, WMA Lossless, FLAC, WAV, Ogg Vorbis, AAC Stereo, Apple Lossless, DSD 5.6 MHz, LPCM)

[wappinghigh]

Wapping High, there seems logic in you view but examined further there is illogic too.

 

If you think every manufacturer should ensure their devices play every format what happens if endless formats appear on the market - (we actually seem quite close to that already). I suspect the prices of devices will go up and manufacturers will spend forever playing catch up with the latest whizzy format - thus bringing endless obsolescence of previous devices that can't play the latest format.

 

 

Well there aren't "endless" formats.. that is my first answer to this argument.. And when it comes to bit size and resolution there are even fewer.. that's because the recording gear used to produce the files is actually quite limited..

[wappinghigh]

Disappointing, if true.

 

On their website they write:

 

"Onkyo's commitment to Hi-Res audio playback and supports gapless playback and the ability to play DSD, Double DSD, FLAC and ALAC along with other Hi-Res formats."

 

Moreover, they list the following audio formats as supported "Streaming audio formats": (MP3, WMA, WMA Lossless, FLAC, WAV, Ogg Vorbis, AAC Stereo, Apple Lossless, DSD 5.6 MHz, LPCM)

 

Yes. it's disappointing alright.

 

Read the manual.

 

The website is another example of marketing "semi" truth's from the Hi fi industry. One sees this all the time.. Cheers

[Hiro]

The second issue is simple; some formats are not compatible with exsisting devices. For instance a ladder/R2R dac will not play native DSD, it only works with PCM.

 

If you happen to prefer ladder dacs to say delta sigma dacs you will be quite happy to buy PCM only equipment

 

That's a non-issue, as DACs of this type constitute a tiny niche on the market.

[wappinghigh]

Wapping High, there seems logic in you view but examined further there is illogic too.

 

If you think every manufacturer should ensure their devices play every format what happens if endless formats appear on the market - (we actually seem quite close to that already). I suspect the prices of devices will go up and manufacturers will spend forever playing catch up with the latest whizzy format - thus bringing endless obsolescence of previous devices that can't play the latest format.

 

The second issue is simple; some formats are not compatible with exsisting devices. For instance a ladder/R2R dac will not play native DSD, it only works with PCM.

 

If you happen to prefer ladder dacs to say delta sigma dacs you will be quite happy to buy PCM only equipment.

 

The market decides that is how it is. A manufacturer takes a punt at what they think will sell.

 

Audio Note seems quite happy selling ladder dacs, clearly some, including me, are happy with just PCM and don't want the compromise the quality of that sound by adding DSD or other incompatible formats.

Secondly back to my analogy.. the cars and road..

 

Just because you might own and have bought a particular car to drive on one type of road surface (but not another) in the past, doesn't mean somebody else can't come along at a new point in time to produce or drive a car that can be driven on *all* roads. Why should what you, or anybody else have done in the past, influence what can or can't be driven in the future? This is another form of thinking "bias"...

[Hiro]

AFAIK it doesn't play multichannel DSD. And it doesn't play *any* multichannel (DSD or PCM) gaplessly via uPnP....

 

Check the specs. Or read this thread. http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f8-general-forum/av-receivers-pioneer-vsx-1124-k-19984/:)

 

But they do support gapless stereo PCM & DSD playback via network?

 

If so, that's a progress

[wappinghigh]

^. Yes....progress..

[mav52]

Step one

 

What are ALL the formats..?

 

Step two

 

Design hardware to support ALL formats

 

Stept 3

 

There is no step 3....

 

You forgot, "Show Me the Money", The need of the masses will always drive the research, engineering and production wallets.

[mav52]

Secondly back to my analogy.. the cars and road..

 

Just because you might own and have bought a particular car to drive on one type of road surface (but not another) in the past, doesn't mean somebody else can't come along at a new point in time to produce or drive a car that can be driven on *all* roads. Why should what you, or anybody else have done in the past, influence what can or can't be driven in the future? This is another form of thinking "bias"...

 

They do, its called Active suspensions used by BMW, Volvo, Porsche, Lincoln MKZ, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Toyota, Lexus, Land Rover, Benz etc.. etc..and in the old days, some used air ride suspension.

[Paul R]

Yes by (a more careful reading of) the docs, it certainly does. As you say - that's progress.

 

-Paul

 

But they do support gapless stereo PCM & DSD playback via network?

 

If so, that's a progress

[realhifi]

Fortunately, an increasing number of manufacturers are getting the point...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11708[/ATTACH]

 

The manufacturers are delighted that audiophiles have got one more format to worry about! DSD? Sure, we can do that in the NEXT years model.

[Audio_ELF]

The manufacturers are delighted that audiophiles have got one more format to worry about! DSD? Sure, we can do that in the NEXT years model.

It's this year tick box so people "need" a new amp...

 

It's good for you too David.

 

Of course the first HDMI amps with LPCM deciding are just as good in sound quality...

[realhifi]

It's this year tick box so people "need" a new amp...

 

It's good for you too David.

 

Of course the first HDMI amps with LPCM deciding are just as good in sound quality...

 

Not really affecting my business to be honest. VERY few of my customers are looking at DSD much less DSD streaming in a receiver. Really it is a total none issue with them.

The biggest reason folks update is when they find switching issues with their legacy components and need HDMI and component, composite sources to all play together well.

 

I would guess that the next big reason my customers will start thinking about updating receivers, etc will be when 4k has a much larger footprint on the industry.