Sick and tired of music player hardware manufacturers? Vote and rant here...

[Kal Rubinson]

I think the problem for Sonos is that if high res introduced any issues, then the vaunted ease of use immediately goes out the water. They value the simple "plug and play" over offering High Resolution. I imagine its similar to the reasoning Apple use behind not implementing auto rate switching in iTunes.

 

I agree. A couple of years back when Sonos was just introducing the first of their "Play" speakers, I had a talk with the CEO. After a demo, I asked about the future including higher res and multichannel. He said that CD-quality was all they were interested in for their market but that inclusion of video was a consideration. I concluded that they had a coherent plan but that it was not of great interest to me.

[Paul R]

Oh, I agree David, for the most part. People love them, but they are aging fast. And Sonos is not investing in the tech to keep them fresh and exciting for people.

 

 

-Paul

 

 

They are working on marketing and expansion of existing product pipelines which is a costly endevour. EVery one of their products we incorporate into a clients system or introduce as part of a new whole house system is praised and loved by our customers. Is it perfect, no. It is however a huge leap forward for 98% of the folks we deal with.

When they can easily pull up multiple iTunes accounts, FLAC libraries, NAS drives and combine them to one easy to navigate library PLUS have the ability to stream so many services, radio stations, your iPad, etc. Really it is a bargain for their devices and I am guessing that at a MINIMUM, 98% of our clients are not thinking of a higher res format or file res than cd quality.

 

I personally still think a Mac Mini is the preferred method for music playback to a dac but can see the convenience of the SONOS approach as an attractive alternative.

[Audio_ELF]

Oh, I agree David, for the most part. People love them, but they are aging fast. And Sonos is not investing in the tech to keep them fresh and exciting for people.

Excluding the demand for High Res audio which is irrelevant for 99% if Sonos's target market; what "fresh and exciting" new things do you suggest.

 

I see them being successful with the "evolution not revolution" development as followed by Apple with the iPhone and Land Rover.

 

Eloise

[Paul R]

Excluding the demand for High Res audio which is irrelevant for 99% if Sonos's target market; what "fresh and exciting" new things do you suggest.

 

I see them being successful with the "evolution not revolution" development as followed by Apple with the iPhone and Land Rover.

 

Eloise

 

Well, the visual aspect is pretty unexciting, with one of 'em looking like a Dyson fan. (It must really move some air...)

Technology wise, not so much of an evolution. About the same as it was 3 years ago, with the exception of the upcoming new iOS and Andriod app. The newest device is either the sub or the sound bar...

 

 

[realhifi]

Well, the visual aspect is pretty unexciting, with one of 'em looking like a Dyson fan. (It must really move some air...)

Technology wise, not so much of an evolution. About the same as it was 3 years ago, with the exception of the upcoming new iOS and Andriod app. The newest device is either the sub or the sound bar...

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]11656[/ATTACH]

 

The sub and soundbar combo is a decent sounding set and I was just doing an installation with it and a few other pieces to form a whole house music set and the customer is delighted. They even commented on the "cool" look of the sub. I agree their little speakers are in either attractive nor good sounding but I think they hit a home run with Soundbar and sub.

[crisnee]

Oh, I agree David, for the most part. People love them, but they are aging fast. And Sonos is not investing in the tech to keep them fresh and exciting for people.

 

 

-Paul

 

I don't think your average house hold that is using the likes of Sonos is looking for fresh and exciting. Convenient, easy to use and decent sounding without being terribly obtrusive sounds about right to me. Those of us here at CA who are nutty for purple and platinum usb cables and DSD dacs with EMI deflecting power shields don't make up the market Sonos is looking at.

 

Chris

[Paul R]

You are right of course. On the other hand, I just found the new Pioneer VSX-1124-K, and it darn sure looks like an attempt to build a Sono's killer to me.

-Paul

 

 

I don't think your average house hold that is using the likes of Sonos is looking for fresh and exciting. Convenient, easy to use and decent sounding without being terribly obtrusive sounds about right to me. Those of us here at CA who are nutty for purple and platinum usb cables and DSD dacs with EMI deflecting power shields don't make up the market Sonos is looking at.

 

Chris

[Kal Rubinson]

You are right of course. On the other hand, I just found the new Pioneer VSX-1124-K, and it darn sure looks like an attempt to build a Sono's killer to me.

-Paul

I think this is inevitable since networking features are one of the obvious features on which these products can compete. Nonetheless, I do not think it is targetted at Sonos since, again, the market is different.

 

Simplistic example: My oldest friend recently built a new house. He is a fine amateur pianist and music lover but has never had a decent music system since he bought one of the original Wollensak tape recorder/players back when we were in high school. After wiring all the rooms with (dual) ethernet at construction time, he ended up with multiple Sonos units and he is very happy. Cost and substrate were not issues. He just found this more than adequate and quite friendly.

[wappinghigh]

You are right of course. On the other hand, I just found the new Pioneer VSX-1124-K, and it darn sure looks like an attempt to build a Sono's killer to me.

-Paul

 

Again.. It's never quite there.. This is a Surround receiver.. that's it's market ..

 

"Multi Channel High Resolution file Playback".. is one of the 4 bullet points in it's release blurb..

 

yet that appears to be every format but multichannel DSD..

 

This again precisely proves my point..

 

Whoever designs the new upgrades to all this hardware..or those responsible just don't get it..

 

Why release a brand new piece of kit this that is *half* baked when it comes to it's primary function (multichannel streaming)

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about..

 

Nobody seems to sit down at the start and say "right".. "what are all the formats".... so priority one is to support them all...

[wappinghigh]

Nobody gets it FARK hahahahha Am I the only one who gets' this LOL! Surely not..

[Audio_ELF]

Why release a brand new piece kit this that is *half* baked when it comes to it's primary function (multichannel streaming)

Because, in the main, this functionality is part of the underlying chipset rather than specifically designed by the manufacturer.

 

Yes Pioneer (or Marantz / Denon or Yamaha or Onkyo / Integra) have some influence over the chipset manufacturers but in the main these are commodity products utilising reference designs with their own coding put on top...

 

Eloise

 

PS interestingly this is one of the arguments against DSD; that trying to support DSD is just causing more fragmentation in the market for high resolution audio.

[wappinghigh]

Step one

 

What are ALL the formats..?

 

Step two

 

Design hardware to support ALL formats

 

Stept 3

 

There is no step 3....

[wappinghigh]

Because, in the main, this functionality is part of the underlying chipset rather than specifically designed by the manufacturer.

 

Yes Pioneer (or Marantz / Denon or Yamaha or Onkyo / Integra) have some influence over the chipset manufacturers but in the main these are commodity products utilising reference designs with their own coding put on top...

 

Eloise

 

PS interestingly this is one of the arguments against DSD; that trying to support DSD is just causing more fragmentation in the market for high resolution audio.

 

Sorry I don't accept this argument..

 

Aren't the SABRE DAC chips available right now?

 

They must be..

 

My e28 plays the files.. so does the Oppo...

 

So apparently do a couple of new Onkyo's about to be released.. and gaplessly I'm lead to believe..

[Audio_ELF]

Sorry I don't but this argument..

 

Aren't the SABRE DAC chips available right now?

 

They must be..

 

My e28 plays the files.. so does the Oppo...

It's the "player" part where the issue lies...

[wappinghigh]

^ Same with stereo DAC chips.. the DSD versions have been around for years.. have they not? and the markup in price of DSD over non DSD is what?.. a couple of dollars per chip?...

[wappinghigh]

It's the "player" part where the issue lies...

 

...right so it's laziness on the design of the "player part"..

 

Again proves my point. Universality of format is/has not been, a priority of the manufacturers..

[wappinghigh]

But what totally gets up my goat, is not so much that they are lazy in the implementation of universality..but that time and again this is not made obvious in a sales pitch..

 

It's never made clear for consumers..

 

The (apparent lack of) a format is buried down there in some forum like this to be flushed out by the enthusiasts..

 

It's never spelled out on the home page or brochure..

 

Case in point.

 

This new Pioneer release..

[Paul R]

Hey WAP -it does multi-channel DSD.

 

 

 

Again.. It's never quite there.. This is a Surround receiver.. that's it's market ..

 

"Multi Channel High Resolution file Playback".. is one of the 4 bullet points in it's release blurb..

 

yet that appears to be every format but multichannel DSD..

 

This again precisely proves my point..

 

Whoever designs the new upgrades to all this hardware..or those responsible just don't get it..

 

Why release a brand new piece of kit this that is *half* baked when it comes to it's primary function (multichannel streaming)

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about..

 

Nobody seems to sit down at the start and say "right".. "what are all the formats".... so priority one is to support them all...

[wappinghigh]

^Are you sure Paul?

 

That would be awesome..

 

where is the evidence of this?

 

Alas if it was only true (it's doesn't appear to be unfortunately)..

 

Ok.. I just found your thread.. lets take it over there..

[wappinghigh]

See what I mean..?

 

Classic and just typical of the industry. Brand new 2014 releases, yet Hardware manufacturers continually stuffing us around..

 

And good brands I might add (Onkyo and Pioneer)

 

I rest my case (again)

 

Anybody else want to try prove me wrong?

 

I'd love it, so go ahead and make my day!...because I sooooo want there to be a decent universal Mulitroom platform and a decent Universal multichannel receiver...

 

Cheers and happy hunting everyone.. Wap.

[realhifi]

I think this is inevitable since networking features are one of the obvious features on which these products can compete. Nonetheless, I do not think it is targetted at Sonos since, again, the market is different.

 

Simplistic example: My oldest friend recently built a new house. He is a fine amateur pianist and music lover but has never had a decent music system since he bought one of the original Wollensak tape recorder/players back when we were in high school. After wiring all the rooms with (dual) ethernet at construction time, he ended up with multiple Sonos units and he is very happy. Cost and substrate were not issues. He just found this more than adequate and quite friendly.

 

Dual Cat5 each room and you are done. Terrific flexibility for either simplicity or expansion into a decent little system wherever in the home someone ends up wanting one. With their range of products from one piece contained speakers to amps with streaming, they all seamlessly mesh and just work. Simply.

[wappinghigh]

Dual Cat5 each room and you are done. Terrific flexibility for either simplicity or expansion into a decent little system wherever in the home someone ends up wanting one. With their range of products from one piece contained speakers to amps with streaming, they all seamlessly mesh and just work. Simply.

^You talking about the Marantz stuff?

 

Are you seriously putting up the argument that the user experience with a Multiroom Marantz setup like this via generic uPnP will be equal to or better than Sonos?

[Paul R]

I was sure I had read that somewhere in the not so good documentation for the thingie because I remember my jaw hitting the floor... perhaps I was wrong though because I cannot find it now. The link to the we site is VSX-1124-K - 7.2 Channel Networked AV Receiver with HDMI 2.0 | Pioneer Electronics USA

 

-Paul

 

^Are you sure Paul?

 

That would be awesome..

 

where is the evidence of this?

 

Alas if it was only true (it's doesn't appear to be unfortunately)..

 

Ok.. I just found your thread.. lets take it over there..

[Skeptic]

Again.. It's never quite there.. This is a Surround receiver.. that's it's market ..

"Multi Channel High Resolution file Playback".. is one of the 4 bullet points in it's release blurb..

yet that appears to be every format but multichannel DSD..

This again precisely proves my point..

Whoever designs the new upgrades to all this hardware..or those responsible just don't get it..

Why release a brand new piece of kit this that is *half* baked when it comes to it's primary function (multichannel streaming)

This is exactly what I'm talking about..

Nobody seems to sit down at the start and say "right".. "what are all the formats".... so priority one is to support them all...

Or perhaps they did not want to pay Sony a license to include DSD support in a $600 device?

Perhaps most people won't hear a difference whether you play back DSD natively or converted to PCM?

 

Step one

What are ALL the formats..?

 

Step two

Design hardware to support ALL formats

 

Stept 3

There is no step 3....

Step three is figure out the costs of licensing all these different formats, and whether many of the open-source formats are infringing on other companies' patents before deciding to include them or not.

[wappinghigh]

Or perhaps they did not want to pay Sony a license to include DSD support in a $600 device?

Perhaps most people won't hear a difference whether you play back DSD natively or converted to PCM?

 

Step three is figure out the costs of licensing all these different formats, and whether many of the open-source formats are infringing on other companies' patents before deciding to include them or not.

 

Whether or not "most people can here a difference whether you play back DSD natively or converted to PCM" has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. This is classic industry bias. It's got nothing to do with what the industry "think". The fact is, the file types are out their now to be purchased and consumers should be ale to play them WITHOUT fussing around with conversion.. Whether or not some manufacturer "thinks" there is no audible difference between formats is meaningless. Their "opinion" has got nothing to do with it....

 

Your second point has some validity. But surely there is a manufacturer big enough to pay *all* necessary royalties (if there are in fact any) to bring universality to a product..