Merging HAPI as ASIO output device

[bibo01]

...

It is unfortunately too small for my to make very much out, but it would appear to have four DAC chips. Or maybe one DAC chip. Merging's website doesn't seem to say very much about what they have used. Probably the only way to tell would be to look at it closely and listen for yourself what the differences are. Others in this thread have compared the Hapi/Horus to the NADAC and report that the NADAC sounds better. I haven't done the comparison myself, so I don't know.

Not in my report!

[tailspn]

And a very Spartan board it be.

 

Yep. And if you reclock the a DSD bitstream to a high enough rate, theoretically all you need is a RC integrator network to recover just the audio. Not quite that simple of course, but a number of DAC's operate on that principle.

[hvbias]

I suppose you may have a different audio philosophy to mine, but in general I prefer as few electronics in the analog signal path as possible If I was going to flavour the sound, I would do it by choosing different power amps. In fact that's what i've done.

 

It's something I intend to try, if it sounded worse I'd ditch it. Other factors would be if I needed more gain depending on overall system gain, speaker sensitivity, etc. For power amps I prefer to get the most neutral amps possible with very low impedance output, my favorite designs are zero feedback solid state like Ayre and some FirstWatt.

[dallasjustice]

I have something else to say about the output stage. The maximum output of the NADAC is 6.1V into XLR. If you are using it in a multichannel application like me, you may have to cut the output of some of the channels to achieve balanced sound. In my case, the woofer of my speaker is 15dB down compared to the horns. Once you cut the output to one channel like this, you no longer have enough voltage to drive each amplifier to maximum. And before anybody asks, I have already set the option for high output on the NADAC.

 

I emailed Merging to discuss this, and their response was that it would be possible to modify the board by removing a resistor (at the cost of voiding my warranty). I still haven't done anything about this - possible solutions would be to change that power amp into an integrated, or buy a preamp, or send the power amp for modification (given that it is out of warranty), or just live with reduced volume output! Or maybe take up Dominique's offer to swap the NADAC for a Hapi.

 

Depending on how sensitive the input stage of your power amps are and the configuration of your speakers, you may find the NADAC may not have enough drive for them. Both the Hapi and the Horus output more voltage. I also observe that some products (e.g. DEQX) have dip switches that allow you to increase the output voltage yourself without having to return the unit to the factory - something Merging might like to consider.

 

Keith,

It may be helpful for others to understand your complaint about the output voltage if you would first set out your system design. I am familiar with your setup but others are not. I also use an active setup in my system.

 

IME, whenever one enters the world of digital crossovers and multi channel active setups, the person setting up the system carries the burden to setup their system. This is the case because 99% of the time, systems like this will not involve an analog pre/volume control. This means it's important for the user to understand gain matching between various parts of the system including the DAC, amplifiers, the sensitivity of all speakers, main listening position distance and even room decay times.

 

Anyone using a digitally active system like yours must understand how to level match all speakers before you can start to build your crossovers and other linearizing filters. If you don't get the gain matching correct from the beginning, you will greatly limit dynamic range due to excessive digital attenuation. IMO, you'd be better off posting questions about this problem on the Acourate forum as there are many others much more knowledgeable than myself who can help you overcome these issues.

 

The bottom line is that 6.1v RMS over XLR is about 18dbu. This is a very high output voltage for almost all applications. Very few, if any, audiophile DACs have more than 18dbu output. Pro audio DACs like the HAPI usually have up to 24dbu output for special needs in a studio environment. Most audiophile DACs are spec'd to the old CD player 2.2 volt RMS standard. IOW, 6.1v RMS would be plenty of output if you properly gain matched your system from the outset. All of the NADAC's specs are available.

 

Michael.

[bibo01]

Has anybody tried a Hapi with its new Linux driver?

Perhaps I should say: has anybody managed to make a Hapi work with its new Linux driver?

[matthias]

I am very curious how the upcoming Anubis compares to Hapi.

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-acoustic-music-and-location-recording/1252514-merging-anubis.html

 

Matt

[bmoura]

8 hours ago, matthias said:

I am very curious how the upcoming Anubis compares to Hapi.

 

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-acoustic-music-and-location-recording/1252514-merging-anubis.html

 

Matt

 

The video that tailspn (Tom Caulfield) mentions on Gear Slutz is interesting.  

 

A behind the scenes tour of Merging Technologies - and a look at the guts of the Anubis and its Zman ethernet card!  (starting at the 5 minute mark in the video).

 

 

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, bmoura said:

and a look at the guts of the Anubis

 

Do we know for sure that's Anubis? Could be a prototype of something else?

 

Definitely is a look at Zman though.

 

I thought Zman fizzled out since the hype in 2017 but Merging said it will be part of all their future products - Anubis being the first to have it it seems.

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Em2016 said:

 

I thought Zman fizzled out since the hype in 2017.......

 

Interesting that @dbrulhart said in May 2017 that there is a good number of manufacturers who intend to implement ZMan into their DACs.

Where are these ZMan-DACs two years later?

 

Matt

[bmoura]

12 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Interesting that @dbrulhart said in May 2017 that there is a good number of manufacturers who intend to implement ZMan into their DACs.

Where are these ZMan-DACs two years later?

 

Matt

 

Aurender licensed the Zman technology in early 2018 and their Zman equipped Music Server has been demonstrated with the Merging NADAC at audio shows since then.  So there is activity in that area.  

https://www.merging.com/news/press-releases/aurender-joins-ravenna-community

 

On the other hand, I'm sure that Merging's top priority is to incorporate the Zman card in their own products - like the Anubis that launches later this month on March 21 - and future Merging products for the pro and home markets.  It will be interesting to watch. :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GetTdlq5x3E 

 

 

[matthias]

2 hours ago, bmoura said:

and a look at the guts of the Anubis.......

 

Someone on Gearslutz mentioned that it is an evaluation board. The Anubis seems to be much smaller.

 

BTW, Ravenna is made for professional recording,

I am wondering if it sounds better than the existing solutions for "audiophiles".

We will see or better hear.

 

Matt

 

[bmoura]

6 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Ravenna is made for professional recording,

I am wondering if it sounds better than the existing solutions for "audiophiles".

 

 

 

You can test that out now with the NADAC converters (Merging+NADAC, Merging+Player) from Merging.

They are audiophile DACs that use Ravenna and Ethernet.  (The original NADAC uses Ethernet only, no USB option at all!)

https://nadac.merging.com/product/merging-nadac

[asdf1000]

24 minutes ago, matthias said:

Where are these ZMan-DACs two years later?

 

We are still waiting for Merging's also... so it's safe to assume development time can take years.

 

Maybe this year or next year we see Zman DACs (or streamers or integrateds or active speakers...).

[matthias]

30 minutes ago, bmoura said:

 

You can test that out now with the NADAC converters (Merging+NADAC, Merging+Player) from Merging.

They are audiophile DACs that use Ravenna and Ethernet.  (The original NADAC uses Ethernet only, no USB option at all!)

https://nadac.merging.com/product/merging-nadac

 

A comparison with optimised USB for example seems not to be possible with NADAC. The complete NADAC system is now really expensive and in the price range of the best servers with USB output.

So I am curious what Anubis brings to the party.

 

Matt

[bmoura]

3 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

A comparison with optimised USB for example seems not to be possible with NADAC. The complete NADAC system is now really expensive and in the price range of the best servers with USB output.

 

Matt

 

As the newer high-end Stereo USB DACs have increased in price ($20k - $150k), the Stereo and 8 Channel editions of the NADAC and NADAC Player ($10k - $14k) are no longer among the most expensive DACs in the home market.

 

When Merging releases future editions of the NADAC, we will see if Merging plans to catch up in that department.  

 

 

 

[matthias]

12 minutes ago, bmoura said:

 

As the newer high-end Stereo USB DACs have increased in price ($20k - $150k), the Stereo and 8 Channel editions of the NADAC and NADAC Player ($10k - $14k) are no longer among the most expensive DACs in the home market.

 

When Merging releases future editions of the NADAC, we will see if Merging plans to catch up in that department.  

 

I am talking about combos with server plus DAC. Interesting that Merging use in their professional products better DAC chips than in their audiophile products.

 

Matt

[bmoura]

3 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

I am talking about combos with server plus DAC. Interesting that Merging use in their professional products better DAC chips than in their audiophile products.

 

Matt

 

When you combine a server with one of these more expensive high end DACs, the total price really jumps past the NADAC.

 

As for the DAC chips, Merging (and other DAC makers like Bricasti) will tell you that the real question is what follows the DAC chip vs. the chip itself. Especially true when some of the "on-chip" features are not used in the DAC design among the higher end converters.

 

In the video, Claude C. notes that there are a limited number of DAC chips & parts that support all of the formats and bit rates used by Merging.  So they are likely to use newer DAC chips in the future Merging home and pro products since the earlier parts are likely to become scarce as time goes on.

[matthias]

5 minutes ago, bmoura said:

 

When you combine a server with one of these more expensive high end DACs, the total price really jumps past the NADAC.

 

As for the DAC chips, Merging (and other DAC makers like Bricasti) will tell you that the real question is what follows the DAC chip vs. the chip itself. Especially true when some of the "on-chip" features are not used in the DAC design among the higher end converters.

 

In the video, Claude C. notes that there are a limited number of DAC chips & parts that support all of the formats and bit rates used by Merging.  So they are likely to use newer DAC chips in the future Merging home and pro products since the earlier parts are likely to become scarce as time goes on.

 

Merging praised the performance of the ES9028PRO in the DA8P. They would not do if it does not sound better. 

I did not talk about your mentioned super expensive HE DACs. The performance to price ratio is often much better for professional equipment.

 

Matt

[bmoura]

11 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Merging praised the performance of the ES9028PRO in the DA8P. They would not do if it does not sound better.

 

 

When I have talked with Merging, they make the point that a large portion of the design in their converters bypass the DAC chip features.  And they tell me that is why the ESS chip used in their designs is not the determining factor in their sound. 

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, bmoura said:

 

When I have talked with Merging, they make the point that a large portion of the design in their converters bypass the DAC chip features.  And they tell me that is why the ESS chip used in their designs is not the determining factor in their sound. 

 

Everything matters, the chip too and we are OT.

 

Matt

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, bmoura said:

 

As the newer high-end Stereo USB DACs have increased in price ($20k - $150k), the Stereo and 8 Channel editions of the NADAC and NADAC Player ($10k - $14k) are no longer among the most expensive DACs in the home market.

True but, at the same time, there have been great improvements in DACs that are less expensive, so I do not think that their relative position has shifted much.

[bmoura]

1 minute ago, Kal Rubinson said:

True but, at the same time, there have been great improvements in DACs that are less expensive, so I do not think that their relative position has shifted much.

 

I'd agree on sound quality.  But on price, they have been topped by a number of high end DACs.

And that trend is likely to continue based on the pricing of new DACs in the home market.

 

[bibo01]

1 hour ago, bmoura said:

 

I'd agree on sound quality.  But on price, they have been topped by a number of high end DACs.

And that trend is likely to continue based on the pricing of new DACs in the home market.

 

Perhaps in terms of DAC, but with their Ultra Low Noise clock at 40.000euro they are catching up pretty fast in terms of price.

[Kal Rubinson]

9 hours ago, bmoura said:

 

I'd agree on sound quality.  But on price, they have been topped by a number of high end DACs.

And that trend is likely to continue based on the pricing of new DACs in the home market.

True but unfortunate.