Is Someone Playing Fast & Loose With Measurements?

[Superdad]

I'd just like to receive the GeekOut that I pledged for in September at the Early Adopter level (among the first 300). I also backed the desktop Geek Pulse but don't know when that will ship.

 

Now I see that Light Harmonic is about to launch a new Kickstarter campaign for something called Aria, to go up against PONO. Geek Temple :: Topic: Can LH Labs Go Up Against Pono Player? (1/5)

 

Hmm...

[labjr]

I'd just like to receive the GeekOut that I pledged for in September at the Early Adopter level (among the first 300). I also backed the desktop Geek Pulse but don't know when that will ship.

 

Now I see that Light Harmonic is about to launch a new Kickstarter campaign for something called Aria, to go up against PONO. Geek Temple :: Topic: Can LH Labs Go Up Against Pono Player? (1/5)

 

Hmm...

 

I don't imagine the market for a phone add-on is very large and don't quite understand why Larry and Gavin seem hell bent on doing a project that will appeal to a limited group of buyers?

[junker]

I see what's going on here...

 

[junker]

[Blake]

Speaking of playing "fast and loose", how about the title of this thread Chris? It is suggestive that LH intentionally fudged the numbers or at best was grossly negligent. I don't think this is fair to LH. Why assume the worst before you find out all the details?

 

None of us were present during LH's testing. Larry has provided screenshots and background details- he has been totally transparent. To take issue with the testing methodology is one thing, to suggest LH is dishonest or reckless without having proof is another.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Speaking of playing "fast and loose", how about the title of this thread Chris? It is suggestive that LH intentionally fudged the numbers or at best was grossly negligent. I don't think this is fair to LH. Why assume the worst before you find out all the details?

 

None of us were present during LH's testing. Larry has provided screenshots and background details- he has been totally transparent. To take issue with the testing methodology is one thing, to suggest LH is dishonest or reckless without having proof is another.

Hi Blake - The title is meant to attract attention through the use of creative liberty without being too suggestive. If you look at this the other way, AudioQuest could be playing fast & loose with the measurements. The truth is I simply don't know because it's outside the realm of my knowledge. Thus, the reason I posted the following statement in the opening thread, "Please let me know if any of the information I posted is incorrect or misleading, I can update the data anytime. I just want to get to the facts. Thanks guys."

 

If I had to guess, now that some people have weighed in and LH has responded, I'd say LH's numbers are very misleading, LH isn't being transparent, and conducted testing in an unethical manor. LH is a smart company with qualified engineers. It's strange that the iDSD measurements published can only be obtained by running the battery flat, using a very low impedance load, and adding excess dither. It seems LH is playing dumb on some items as well.

 

I also don't follow the logic of LH. Saying the measurements are kosher, then saying c'mon guys we posted these in our forum not in a magazine (my paraphrase) is strange to me. It's almost like they have some guilt but are saying everything is OK because they are in their forum. On the other side, if the measurements were all above board why even attempt to delineate a difference between a magazine or their own website. I don't follow the logic.

 

Larry's quote:

 

"We publish that testing result inside our Geek Force forum. And we just hope our Geek Out backers knows how good their perk will be. Why suddenly it looks like this becomes a media focus? We didn't quote it here or in Audiostream"

 

So, the measurements are good enough to publish in the Geek Force forum, but not on AudioStream? I don't follow the logic.

 

 

Some other issue I've now seen that seem somewhat sinister.

 

- On 8/16/13 LH claim AQ output impedance is 12ohm and then on 9/513 they claim 5.9; neither claim is correct.

 

- On 8/16 LH list distortion as .041% but later list it at 5(+)%. Which even if they had the DF 1.0 is significantly higher than what JA measured and reported.

 

- The only way to approximate Geek’s claims (see Sine1Khz-96K-100percent) is by overdriving the signal.

[The Computer Audiophile]

None of us were present during LH's testing. Larry has provided screenshots and background details- he has been totally transparent. To take issue with the testing methodology is one thing, to suggest LH is dishonest or reckless without having proof is another.

The beauty of empirical data and scientific measurements is they should be repeatable. If LH explained how it got the iDSD to perform like it did, thus allowing others to replicate the testing all would be cool. But as I said before, one way to get the iDSD to measure like LH's tests is to run the battery flat, use a very low impedance load, and add excess dither.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Blake - I don't win by proving one company wrong or supporting one company over another. I and the CA readers win by getting the facts out in the open.

 

I have nothing against LH. In fact we've been talking about an ad campaign on CA for a few months. One way to ruin my relationship with LH is to show favoritism. That's not good for anyone, even AudioQuest.

[christopher3393]

Chris, your take seems quite plausible to me.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Chris, your take seems quite plausible to me.

That's all I can glean from what I've seen and read. If there are more facts that lead me in another direction I'll be happy change my opinion. As we all know my opinion isn't fact, it's just an opinion.

[labjr]

I think this controversy, among other things, has rubbed some people the wrong way. I wish they would have just published the measurements of their own products. Or let the product do the talking. I've participated in both of their campaigns, but I'm not sure I'd go through another one.

[barrows]

I suspect we will have more clarity when Stereophile reviews the Geek Out, then we will have reliable comparable measurements. It is important to note that measurements from different sources are not always comparable, as one needs the measurements to be done the same way, with the same equipment, to really make valid comparisons.

I am not sure what is going on with LH's measurements, but Larry Ho did suggest that he would try and get the updated Dragonfly to re-measure.

[m.i.c.k.e.y]

...but they were recently called to my attention by AudioQuest

...Below is information claimed by LH Labs and refuted by AudioQuest.

Still can't get it, the reason(s) why...

 

1. But are we now dictated by some audio company to do something?

2. Why bring their wars here? Let them play it by themselves.

3. And why they point out a single company? If they're complaining, publish theirs (testing) right?

As previous stated by others, third party testing, include also others DACs.

[junker]

Wow... Really Chris?

 

If it is outside of your realm of expertise then how about refraining from accusing LH of being "unethical" and "misleading". As the MC of this forum your name carries a lot of weight to be this reckless and accusatory. As stated previously even your title is baited.

 

And I don't like how this appears to be an orchestrated smear campaign as all of this stuff hit CA and AudioStream at the same time with supporting collateral and talking points ready to go.

 

The truth is I simply don't know because it's outside the realm of my knowledge. Thus, the reason I posted the following statement in the opening thread, "Please let me know if any of the information I posted is incorrect or misleading, I can update the data anytime. I just want to get to the facts. Thanks guys."

 

If I had to guess, now that some people have weighed in and LH has responded, I'd say LH's numbers are very misleading, LH isn't being transparent, and conducted testing in an unethical manor. LH is a smart company with qualified engineers. It's strange that the iDSD measurements published can only be obtained by running the battery flat, using a very low impedance load, and adding excess dither. It seems LH is playing dumb on some items as well.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Still can't get it, the reason(s) why...

 

1. But are we now dictated by some audio company to do something?

2. Why bring their wars here? Let them play it by themselves.

3. And why they point out a single company? If they're complaining, publish theirs (testing) right?

As previous stated by others, third party testing, include also others DACs.

Hi Mickey - I'm not sure what you mean in point number 1. Your point number 2 is very valid. I thought about it long and hard before posting this thread. I decided that the topic of DACs is very important to CA readers and it's very important for CA readers to have facts before spending hard earned money. If I can help get to the bottom of this discrepancy I will have provided a service to the CA readers. No matter how this ends up, everybody wins with more information. As to point number 3 I believe this testing is provided in the original post and by John Atkinson at Stereophile.

[Superdad]

I am not sure what is going on with LH's measurements, but Larry Ho did suggest that he would try and get the updated Dragonfly to re-measure.

 

I'd suggest that they stop with measurements and multiple future product planning and concentrate on getting the 10+ different products that everyone donated for out the door this year. Both GeekOut and GeekPulse have already slipped a couple of months, and for some configurations well beyond that. They are a small company and they are spreading themselves very thin what with altering the designs on the fly every week based on continuous suggestions from their "Geek Force." I am all for being responsive to your users and incorporating good ideas, but at some point one has to disengage from the noise, stick a fork in the design and call it done.

 

Think I am exaggerating? Spend some time over at: Geek Temple :: Category Index, look at all the configurations, promised products, and the time spent discussing future products (Aria to go against PONO?). It will make you wonder how a dozen people will be able to execute on it all. Please don't get me wrong: I like those guys and think what they are doing is great (I backed both campaigns and look forward to hearing/using the products), but having lived in the boutique audio manufacturing world myself for many years, I know the perils of over promising all too well.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Wow... Really Chris?

 

If it is outside of your realm of expertise then how about refraining from accusing LH of being "unethical" and "misleading". As the MC of this forum your name carries a lot of weight to be this reckless and accusatory. As stated previously even your title is baited.

 

And I don't like how this appears to be an orchestrated smear campaign as all of this stuff hit CA and AudioStream at the same time with supporting collateral and talking points ready to go.

Hi Junker - I definitely hear you. I had no idea Michael was going to publish about this as well. I likely would have refrained if I knew that, as the service of getting to the facts would have been carried out by him. I also elected to use the forum rather than a front page article for this topic. While the testing is outside my skill set, the facts of publishing incorrect results once, then updating them to be another incorrect value is simple to understand. Any layman can look at that and think something is up. I was provided information about the iDSD suggesting the only way to get LH's results are running the battery low, etc... I can understand that. Thus, let's figure how else to get those results. LH could help us here.

[barrows]

I'd suggest that they stop with measurements and multiple future product planning and concentrate on getting the 10+ different products that everyone donated for out the door this year. Both GeekOut and GeekPulse have already slipped a couple of months, and for some configurations well beyond that. They are a small company and they are spreading themselves very thin what with altering the designs on the fly every week based on continuous suggestions from their "Geek Force." I am all for being responsive to your users and incorporating good ideas, but at some point one has to disengage from the noise, stick a fork in the design and call it done.

 

Think I am exaggerating? Spend some time over at: Geek Temple :: Category Index, look at all the configurations, promised products, and the time spent discussing future products (Aria to go against PONO?). It will make you wonder how a dozen people will be able to execute on it all. Please don't get me wrong: I like those guys and think what they are doing is great (I backed both campaigns and look forward to hearing/using the products), but having lived in the boutique audio manufacturing world myself for many years, I know the perils of over promising all too well.

 

Alex: Agreed. LH needs to start delivering products, and then they need to set some limits on what they are doing. At some point in the development/manufacturing process it is time to define the product, and actually produce it. Not defining the product in a timely manner and allowing it to actually get built and delivered has resulted in the demise of a few audio companies. Of course if you generate all your sales up front via kickstarter... hmmm.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Hi Guys - If you want to discuss business practices of LH or any company please start a new thread. I don't want this potentially volatile thread to turn into a bash LH thread.

[Paul R]

Actually Audiostream referenced finding out about this on another forum. Gee, I wonder where?

 

I think ink that is what is called stealing a scoop...

 

Hi Junker - I definitely hear you. I had no idea Michael was going to publish about this as well. I likely would have refrained if I knew that, as the service of getting to the facts would have been carried out by him. I also elected to use the forum rather than a front page article for this topic. While the testing is outside my skill set, the facts of publishing incorrect results once, then updating them to be another incorrect value is simple to understand. Any layman can look at that and think something is up. I was provided information about the iDSD suggesting the only way to get LH's results are running the battery low, etc... I can understand that. Thus, let's figure how else to get those results. LH could help us here.

[DM]

Hi Guys - If you want to discuss business practices of LH or any company please start a new thread. I don't want this potentially volatile thread to turn into a bash LH thread.

 

I have to agree with Chris here, let's not turn this into LH bashing thread. They are a good company with very good internet marketing skill.

 

As I understand (please correct me if I am wrong), Larry Ho was quite a successful internet opportunist back in Taiwan during the dot-com era, he obtained 30m investment from Intel for an internet software company but later went bankrupt around 2000/2001, those were widely reported in the Taiwan media.

 

http://www.inside.com.tw/2013/11/18/larry-ho-geek-pulse-chineasy?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+inside-blog-taiwan+%28%E7%B6%B2%E8%B7%AF%E8%B6%A8%E5%8B%A2%E8%A1%8C%E9%8A%B7%E8%88%87%E9%96%8B%E7%99%BC%29

 

I actually joined their two campaigns due to the very good marketing they did and like others, I am still awaiting delivery.

 

On the other hand, I do think after following all the arguments here, Chris's ones are logical and reasonable to me. There is definitely a case for the LH guys to answer.

 

I have both the Dragonfly and iDSD (properly charged) in my own possession, I ran a 0dB signal through them and I got the following results from my Dicksmith multi-meter:

 

Dragonfly: 1.85V

iDSD： 1.66V

 

I don't have a big ass scope or audio analyser to do all those fancy FFT graphs, but with my DIY measurements, I can confirm and repeat what Audioquest and iFi published are correct and I can't reconcile my results with what LH Labs have published.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I don't have a big ass scope ...

 

That's the technical term correct? :~)

[barrows]

That's the technical term correct? :~)

 

hahaha, an Ass Scope!

Was not trying to bash LH, I am in fact pretty psyched with what they are doing, and I have listened to the DaVinci Dual DAC. Just hoping they do not over extend themselves and run into trouble. And I am looking forward to receiving my Geek Out.

I look forward to Stereophile's measurements of the product as well.

[labjr]

I look forward to Stereophile's measurements of the product as well.

 

I'm sure a lot of people are waiting and I'll bet some are hoping they'll have to eat crow.

 

BTW some preliminary test results for the Geek Pulse were revealed in the indiegogo campaign today.

[Superdad]

Was not trying to bash LH, I am in fact pretty psyched with what they are doing... Just hoping they do not over extend themselves and run into trouble. And I am looking forward to receiving my Geek Out.

 

Same here. And I am following what they are doing mainly because they are one of the first to be developing a whole range of products "in public," with most of the process steps and missteps laid out for all to see, and taking feedback along the way. It is a grand experiment, most of which can be admired, some of which can be critiqued.