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High Res Provenance


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I'm not a lawyer, but I know fraud when I see it. HDtracks takes standard redbook and packages and sells it as 24/192. That's no different from putting a pink of milk in a one quart container and selling it as a quart of milk.

Actually given that the files may be upsampled to 24/192; it's more like taking 1 pint of milk and adding water till it fills a 2 pint container and calling it a milk based drink...

 

Eloise

Eloise

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...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Actually given that the files may be upsampled to 24/192; it's more like taking 1 pint of milk and adding water till it fills a 2 pint container and calling it a milk based drink...

 

Eloise

 

Why attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity and greed? Someone decided that upsampling the files reallyndid produce "hi res" files and if someone wanted to pay more for the music in that format, sell it to them and take the money.

 

Of course, HDTracks could have exucated them a little better, or someone could have, but essentially, it just sounds like someone stupid asked how to produce files ar 24/96 or 24/192, and then demanded those files be created. Stupid, and not a little greedy.

Anyone who considers protocol unimportant has never dealt with a cat DAC.

Robert A. Heinlein

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All this talk about fraud. The thing about the law in the US, you have to prove that there was some intent to commit fraud. If people fell so strongly that it is fraud, then make a complaint at the consumer fraud divisions in the offices of district attorneys and attorneys general. But you have better have your facts in line and a wallet to generate the action you seek.

 

If you feel that HD tracks or any other hi-rez provider is providing a product that doesn't meet your standards, stop purchasing from them and move on. You have that right, if not just keep on giving them your money...

The Truth Is Out There

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Oh PS: there is currently an interested lawsuit ( fraud) where a Music Company Sued For “Inferior” Re-Recordings of 80s and 90s Hits.

The basis of the fraud case, "" “Tutm’s actions operated as a fraud, deceit, and a commercially unreasonable practice upon the consuming public,” continues the claim. “[Tutm] intended to create this confusion and misperception through omitted critical information on the albums’ labels and covers in order to increase sales.” So if a Jersey woman can do this, go for it. http://musicfeeds.com.au/news/music-company-sued-for-inferior-re-recordings-of-80s-and-90s-hits/

The Truth Is Out There

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I'm not a lawyer, but I know fraud when I see it. HDtracks takes standard redbook and packages and sells it as 24/192. That's no different from putting a pink of milk in a one quart container and selling it as a quart of milk.

 

Actually it may be the record label which did the upsampling and repackaging. Since courts require actual evidence, you'd need to do what's called "discovery" to learn exactly who did what when, which can be quite expensive. And to make it worth your while, you'd need to show damages equal to or greater than what you'd expect to spend on the case, *including the time and expense of collecting any judgment*. (I've known some lawyers on big, famous cases who learned that the hard way. I met Karen Silkwood's Oklahoma attorneys years after the famous case and verdict, after much of the damages amount, with little publicity, had been set aside by the Supreme Court of the United States. They were typing their own documents because they could no longer afford a secretary.) So exactly how many upsampled downloads did you buy from HDTracks? Enough to make it worthwhile to hire an attorney and go through years of litigation?

 

There are some (many) problems for which lawsuits aren't a very satisfactory solution.

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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Actually it may be the record label which did the upsampling and repackaging.

 

That's an interesting speculation, but why do you see high rez downloads on HDtracks that you don't see on the label's website or catalog? Given their trivial sales volume, why would a major even talk to them?

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That's an interesting speculation, but why do you see high rez downloads on HDtracks that you don't see on the label's website or catalog? Given their trivial sales volume, why would a major even talk to them?

 

Where exactly do you think HDTracks gets its material, if not from the labels that own the copyrights?

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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I think they get standard cd resolution from the labels and repackage them as high rez

 

No fan of HDTracks, but I don't think this is what they did. There are actually some forums where some people involved with supplying files on behalf of the record company to HDtracks post. In a few cases, the person supplied Hires files, but someone along the way before HDtracks still got involved and there was some resampling along the way. In some cases most of the tracks, but not all on an album were hires and supplied that way to HDtracks who sold them that way.

 

My opinion, most of the blame lies in two places. With the companies owning the music with what they supply, and with HDTracks not exercising due diligence on the product they offer. I even imagine in most cases with record companies it isn't intended fraud, just the sort of thing that happens in large companies with many layers. (Though I may be wrong about this). In the case of HDtracks I think it is a good business, it doesn't benefit them to do the checking so they don't and make excuses. They also likely don't have a big enough market share to force anything on the music companies. I do think they are getting some quick sales when a better job of protecting their customers would have earned them trust. As one of the first hires providers they had it pretty much made. They trashed all that good will, and probably a chance as being the go to provider of hires quality music as a result. Even if they perform perfectly in the future the rep is tarnished.

 

If Neil Young's Pono offerings fix these issues, and what he is describing would do so, then it will be a welcome source for music.

And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. 

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In the case of HDtracks I think it is a good business, it doesn't benefit them to do the checking so they don't and make excuses. They also likely don't have a big enough market share to force anything on the music companies. I do think they are getting some quick sales when a better job of protecting their customers would have earned them trust. As one of the first hires providers they had it pretty much made. They trashed all that good will, and probably a chance as being the go to provider of hires quality music as a result. Even if they perform perfectly in the future the rep is tarnished.

 

If Neil Young's Pono offerings fix these issues, and what he is describing would do so, then it will be a welcome source for music.

 

+1

One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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And to make it worth your while, you'd need to show damages equal to or greater than what you'd expect to spend on the case, *including the time and expense of collecting any judgment*.

 

Isn't that the problem with most litigation today? It's just too expensive for an aggrieved party to sue unless the damages are high or fit within the limit for small claims court. Similarly, it usually isn't worthwhile for a lawyer to take on small cases as he/she simply can't justify the time required.

"Relax, it's only hi-fi. There's never been a hi-fi emergency." - Roy Hall

"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - William Bruce Cameron

 

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Isn't that the problem with most litigation today? It's just too expensive for an aggrieved party to sue unless the damages are high or fit within the limit for small claims court. Similarly, it usually isn't worthwhile for a lawyer to take on small cases as he/she simply can't justify the time required.

I don't know the details of US legal system... But didn't seam a problem for people sueing Apple cause they didn't know how to hold their phone :-)

 

Here in the UK we have a small claims court so could at least sue for the cost of the download (if you could get a judge to understand) though not for damages.

 

Eloise

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Here in the UK we have a small claims court so could at least sue for the cost of the download (if you could get a judge to understand) though not for damages.

 

Eloise

 

You need Judge Judith Sheindlin ? (grin)

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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You need Judge Judith Sheindlin ? (grin)

That might be funny if I had any idea who that is...

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

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Okay ... Now I know who she is ... But Who is she? And more important why should I care?

Eloise

---

...in my opinion / experience...

While I agree "Everything may matter" working out what actually affects the sound is a trickier thing.

And I agree "Trust your ears" but equally don't allow them to fool you - trust them with a bit of skepticism.

keep your mind open... But mind your brain doesn't fall out.

Link to comment

I don't think HDT produces anything (in a stretch you could say the Chesky label recordings are in house). They are simply a reseller, no different from any store that sells you a CD.

 

The main culprit here are the labels/distributors, who supply fake hi-res. The secondary culprits are the resellers like HDT and Qobuz, who make next to no effort to make sure they are selling actual hi-res (not upsampled stuff) before marketing it as such.

 

I will give HDT belated credit for pulling files that are found to be fake hi-res. Unfortunately, you only get a refund/purchase credit from them if you also find out about it and specifically request a refund of your original order number.

Main listening (small home office):

Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments.

Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three .

Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup.
Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. 

All absolute statements about audio are false :)

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I'm not a lawyer, but I know fraud when I see it. HDtracks takes standard redbook and packages and sells it as 24/192. That's no different from putting a pink of milk in a one quart container and selling it as a quart of milk.

 

There's no doubt that it's fraudulent, but what could be argued is who is legally culpable. Let's make an analogy. Let' say that you are a drug store owner. You buy, from a drug wholesaler, a generic brand of some popular, over the counter, drug like Zantac, for instance. You put-in an order for several cases of generic Zantac 150mg (Ranitidine Hcl) capsules. These extra strength capsules are supposed to have twice the Ranitidine in them as do the cheaper Zantac 75 capsules. Let's say that this wholesaler is less than honest and what he sells you is the larger Ranitidine capsules, but with the same amount of Ranitidine in them as is in the smaller 75mg capsules. The rest of the volume, the unscrupulous drug wholesaler is making up with powdered milk, an inert filler. You believe that you are selling Generic Ranitidine 150 capsules at a significant price savings for your customers over the brand name, but your customers aren't getting what you think you are selling. Since it's not something that you can easily test for (and would probably not have any reason to doubt your supplier in the first place) and something that most customers wouldn't know to complain about even if they noticed that your Ranitidine 150s aren't as effective at relieving heart burn as another brand.

 

Who's culpable for a fraud charge? You or your wholesaler? If you KNOW that you are selling cut Ranitidine capsules as 150mg doses, then clearly you are open for a fraud charge, but if you don't know, then your wholesaler is culpable (unless he is buying the capsules from an unscrupulous manufacturer, and the wholesaler doesn't know either). The same is true for these High-Res downloads. At least in the early days, I suspect that HDTracks just took what the record companies sent them for 24/96 material, and might not have had any way to know that they, and in turn, their customers, were being cheated. In that case, the record companies are the fraudulent parties, not the retailer. But when the news broke that many of the downloads that HDTracks were selling were merely up sampled 16-bit, 44.1 KHz material, and they didn't pull them or re-badge them for what they really were, or offer customers, who had bought these up-sampled files believing they were getting real high-resolution files, refunds, then HDTracks is culpable and open to civil suits of fraud and misrepresentation. I suspect it's that simple and that complex. Finding who is really at fault (I. E. who knew what, and when) just might prove to be complicated enough for a John Grisham novel! :)

George

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Sharing what you believe are the facts on a forum like this is very helpful. Characterizing those facts using words that have legal meanings, some criminal, to me seems a mistake. Most lawyers know better than to give legal advice or make definitive statements about the legality or consequences of actions online or informally, in particular when mutlitple jurisdictions are involved, and the statements themselves can have legal consequences.

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