Article: Pono or Oh No - An Interview With Neil Young

[firedog]

Well, great interview. I'm a little disappointed there are going to be no Pono standards for quality, but I get why they wouldn't want to do that.

As has been said, if they allow feedback on the site, it should enable us to comment on SQ and Volume compression of the files. I think that would put some market pressure on labels to produce better sounding albums. At the very least, they might make a high quality master and then muck it up for mp3 release, but leave it in audiophile form for Pono.

 

My other conclusion from all this: I'm holding off buying any more NY until PonoMusic store arrives. We have to assume the best sounding versions of his work will be found there. So for remasters of older stuff I already own, and for new stuff from the last year or two that I haven't bought yet, I'm waiting to buy from Pono.

 

P.S. NY didn't say in the interview he wasn't aware of HDT. He said he wasn't aware of what the sales experience (HDT store) on their site was like.

[flatmap]

Le Noise was originally recorded at 48khz 24bit, Chris Bellman, the mastering engineer, re-recorded the stream at 96khz 24 bit for the DVD and Blu-ray video release. Ordinary People from Chrome Dreams II was recorded in the late 80's at 48khz 24 bit digitally, the rest of the album was recorded on analog tape in 2006/2007.

 

Ah. Am starting to realize that mastering is a bit like the n-body problem. Didn't realize there would be so many different recording types and constraints, for a given album.

 

Thanks for sharing this.

[Matias]

I also find it is highly unlikely a producer will use different sample rates as an effect - it is too subtle. There are tons of other plugins to use for shaping sound. And if they do, the customer will never know as the end file will be high res, you wouldn't know if they used 16/44 in some part.

 

Also I think most modern studios will benefit greatly if use 24/88, but I don't see them migrating to 24/176 or 24/192. Commercial music uses tons of tracks and the HD space, load times and backup is not worth it for ultra-sonics and slight digital filter improvements. 24/88 should be very good already.

 

Q: Are you a good businessman?

A: No. But I'm not in charge of the business. I'm just the mascot — the hood ornament.

==> Brilliant!

[Schwebung]

I also find it is highly unlikely a producer will use different sample rates as an effect - it is too subtle. There are tons of other plugins to use for shaping sound. And if they do, the customer will never know as the end file will be high res, you wouldn't know if they used 16/44 in some part.

 

To me this sounds like a typical studio nut's vision and I like Mr. Young for that. Makes me think of my first encounter with the amazing GRM Tools plugins in 1995 or -96 when my colleague said ‘I wish this was a room where I can move inside and control the parameters that way.’ Today, we are very slowly getting there.

[Bones13]

I have looked at the many DAPs (digital audio player) out there, and have not been excited about any of the affordable ones. Some of the other specialty (hi-rez) DAPs out there can go for $800-2500 (well the astel and kern will supposedly do DSD portably, and has WiFi). I think the Pono DAP competes well at the iPod price point, and has 128 gig, with half of it on a micro SD card, so its possible to bring more with you if you need. It also will do the hi-rez, which is pretty much anti-iTunes Store mentality. I might be an Apple fanboy, but I don't buy music from the iTunes store. I personally can wait to order the CD and rip it to ALAC, or buy the download from Linn or HDTracks.

 

I ordered the Norah Jones signed chrome one. It will replace an aging iPod Touch. I can play games on the iPhone instead.

 

After following digital music for many years, I think we are seeing an uptick in the interest in lossless files and higher resolutions. As we are in vinyl.

[Boris75]

As has been said, if they allow feedback on the site, it should enable us to comment on SQ and Volume compression of the files. I think that would put some market pressure on labels to produce better sounding albums.

 

Qobuz already allows this.

[labjr]

I was half joking before, but I noticed in the Audiostream article that the Pono player had two Stones songs on the display. As far as I know the ABKCO tapes were only transferred to DSD and PCM versions were transcoded from DSD. To me that, wouldn't be cool. Was he only using this for demo purposes? Did Neil actually do new transfers? I've read that Jody Klein doesn't let the master tapes out of his sight.

[Captain Crunch]

Pono is a real shot in the arm for the music biz on so many levels! In the pre digital days when vinyl ruled, everyone got the same product, that is a vinyl album. To make it sound awesome, you'd get a high quality hifi system, the album would keep sounding better the better your system got. Nowadays, the fragmentation is unbelievable in comparison with so many different formats and bit rates is it any wonder audiophiles are confused! I hope Pono returns us to the old model of buying an album once and for that you get the highest available sound!

 

I also believe that Pono is more about the music store than the player. The player will always be fluid like all technology. It wont stop with the first gen player, it will keep evolving with upgrades and maybe a choice between different models at various price points, some even aimed solely for home use in your big system etc. This will happen if the music store succeeds!

 

They should market this along the lines of 'to get awesome sound, you need Pono Music Files for your chosen playback device (ie, it will work with anything). To get even better sound than that, the best available, you need Pono Music played back through our Pono Player'!

 

i wish everyone associated with this project the best of success and of course kudos must go to the one and only Mr Neil Young, long may he run!

[firedog]

I was half joking before, but I noticed in the Audiostream article that the Pono player had two Stones songs on the display. As far as I know the ABKCO tapes were only transferred to DSD and PCM versions were transcoded from DSD. To me that, wouldn't be cool. Was he only using this for demo purposes? Did Neil actually do new transfers? I've read that Jody Klein doesn't let the master tapes out of his sight.

 

Well, I think you should prepare yourself to be disappointed. If Pono isn't selling DSD, they are going to get the "best available" file out there. In this case that is going to be the hires PCM. Not much of a problem for me, as the hi-res of these masters sounds great. As does the Redbook, BTW. NY made it very clear to Chris that there weren't going to be Pono SQ standards, and they weren't about telling artists and producers how to record and master.

[Teresa]

Off topic comments removed. -Editor

 

I also believe that Pono is more about the music store than the player. The player will always be fluid like all technology. It wont stop with the first gen player, it will keep evolving with upgrades and maybe a choice between different models at various price points, some even aimed solely for home use in your big system etc. This will happen if the music store succeeds!

 

They should market this along the lines of 'to get awesome sound, you need Pono Music Files for your chosen playback device (ie, it will work with anything). To get even better sound than that, the best available, you need Pono Music played back through our Pono Player'!

 

i wish everyone associated with this project the best of success and of course kudos must go to the one and only Mr Neil Young, long may he run!

 

I agree and I too wish Neil Young and Pono the best of luck. Their success I believe means more exposure to high-resolution downloads for the masses and hopefully more great sounding music for us.

[Don Hills]

Teresa,

That was an interesting slice of history. Thank you for bringing back the memories. (And, in some cases, the nightmares...)

 

... audiophile cassettes. ...

 

Surely an oxymoron?

[VandyMan]

Very well written article questioning the need for 192/24 in Pono. Most of his sources have been discussed around here before, but he puts it all together nicely.

 

Sound bite: Despite Pono's promise, experts pan HD audio | Internet & Media - CNET News

[Superdad]

Very well written article questioning the need for 192/24 in Pono. Most of his sources have been discussed around here before, but he puts it all together nicely.

 

Just because it is "well written" and "put together nicely" does not make it true. Of course the originators of MP# and AAC are going to argue against the need for anything better. And it has already been shown that Monty's arguments miss the point of high-res.

 

Besides, Chris has already stipulated that this thread not diverge down the path towards arguing the relevance of file resolution.

[labjr]

Well, I think you should prepare yourself to be disappointed. If Pono isn't selling DSD, they are going to get the "best available" file out there. In this case that is going to be the hires PCM. Not much of a problem for me, as the hi-res of these masters sounds great. As does the Redbook, BTW. NY made it very clear to Chris that there weren't going to be Pono SQ standards, and they weren't about telling artists and producers how to record and master.

 

I listened to Neil talking about not using vinyl masters and safety copies etc. Now he seems to be saying he'll sell best available. HDTracks is already doing this and it's a disappointment. Now I wonder what Pono will do differently in that regard if anything?

[VandyMan]

Just because it is "well written" and "put together nicely" does not make it true. Of course the originators of MP# and AAC are going to argue against the need for anything better. And it has already been shown that Monty's arguments miss the point of high-res.

 

They are saying that better than 44.1/16 is not needed, not that MP3 and AAC are sufficient. Monty's arguments are based on established science and testing. He is clearly an expert in the field. Where has it "been shown" (as in proven?) that his arguments miss "the point of high-res" unless the point is to sell, sell, sell?

 

Besides, Chris has already stipulated that this thread not diverge down the path towards arguing the relevance of file resolution.

 

The article mentions Pono right in the title. How is that not relevant? Because you and Chris disagree with the author? If we are going to discuss Pono, how can we not talk about the merits of hi-res audio?

[The Computer Audiophile]

They are saying that better than 44.1/16 is not needed, not that MP3 and AAC are sufficient. Monty's arguments are based on established science and testing. He is clearly an expert in the field. Where has it "been shown" (as in proven?) that his arguments miss "the point of high-res" unless the point is to sell, sell, sell?

 

 

 

The article mentions Pono right in the title. How is that not relevant? Because you and Chris disagree with the author? If we are going to discuss Pono, how can we not talk about the merits of hi-res audio?

Please don't speak for me VandyMan.

 

Discussion about the merits of high resolution audio will not be tolerated in threads about other topics. Using your logic, a discussion about the merits of high resolution audio should be allowed in nearly every thread and review on CA because nearly every device discussed supports high resolution audio and the manufacturer suggests this sounds better. We're not going down that path. This is a wonderful and enjoyable hobby, not a court case. Feel free to start another thread or jump into one of the countless other threads discussing the merits of high resolution audio.

[REShaman]

Please don't speak for me VandyMan.

 

Discussion about the merits of high resolution audio will not be tolerated in threads about other topics. Using your logic, a discussion about the merits of high resolution audio should be allowed in nearly every thread and review on CA because nearly every device discussed supports high resolution audio and the manufacturer suggests this sounds better. We're not going down that path. This is a wonderful and enjoyable hobby, not a court case. Feel free to start another thread or jump into one of the countless other threads discussing the merits of high resolution audio.

 

Hello Chris,

 

I have already twice thanked you for exercising a curator's judgment for what is on topic and what is off topic. Now I'll praise you as someone who exercises the same criterion and has received push back. Although, this topic, Pono is a bit more complex, it is proper for you to set the criteria for what is on topic.

 

I think it specious, however well intended, when a member equates exercising a curator's perspective and takes appropriate action when the admonition as curator is ignored and call it censorship or the equivalent. Too often, members post what is off topic and over time the magnet attracts chaos in the thread which unravels (pun intended).

 

The saving grace and my rationale for supporting you, beside from agreeing with your curatorship, is that you are not censoring another member's post but requiring the member to post elsewhere or start a new post. Therefore the member is still empowered to express his/herself fully and reference to other topics as desired.

 

I support you in maintaining this position. One moment a member is wondering what prevents you from stepping in and then another member is contesting that you have stepped in and taken on the curator's hat to keep the thread on topic. Off topic posts, willy nilly, has long been an issue, in my view, at CA. In some threads the content is repugnant to some, or social and humorous, or stream of consciousness without regard to the integrity of the thread. Personally, I am tired of wading through off-topic posts to get to the subject of the thread.

 

It just occurred to me that I may shortly be edited out of this thread as I recognize I am off-topic even in my support of you. Delete me if so, I won't protest.

 

I also support the other comments relating to Pono and all the issues that are related to the future of music rendition for sale that is contemplated for the raising of production qualities. Those views aren't be squashed, merely moved to another thread.

 

I have no intention of debating my view beyond expressing my perspective.

 

Best,

Richard

[REShaman]

I listened to Neil talking about not using vinyl masters and safety copies etc. Now he seems to be saying he'll sell best available. HDTracks is already doing this and it's a disappointment. Now I wonder what Pono will do differently in that regard if anything?

 

I have noticed the same dilemma. And articulated my concern about the significance of such statements as they pertain to Neil Young's goals for the future of music. I have backed this effort, having purchased a Limited Neil Young PonoPlayer.

 

And given Neil Young's responses to Chris' probing questions, was surprised (or not) by what was not said ny Neil Young. NY may have been speaking disingenuously when describing himself as a mascot, hood ornament, not a business man, but in the same breath, those who are business men have already guides music rendition with criteria that prompts us to run and back Neil Young's vision.

 

Stating this does not negate my support of NY's vision. But what I heard as a mission statement and the two responses from NY with specific reference to those mission statements lead me back to the status quo. Whether one calls it an artist's expression or non-interference AND leaving business decisions to those who are de facto businessmen is a calculus for more of the same. What determines significant changes in line with NY's visions with those statements from him which leads me in a circle back to where I (We?) started.

 

I ask this question in support of NY's vision and as a reaction to his response. I want NY to succeed. But like promises made by candidates for office who will take on the Status Quo of a system well entrenched and in the control of the business men, once they are elected by the People who thrive on change, the candidate now must contend with a system that decides whether or not anything he proposes will get done. How many times have we witnessed this scenario?

 

I hope Pono succeeds.

 

Enjoy the music,

Richard

[Superdad]

Richard: I am pretty sure that I get your point--and those of others wondering about how PONO will insure that they are offering "the best available" as NY puts it.

 

As every label and service attempting reissues in the past has found out--and as we listeners have experienced from the end product--there are tons of variables and obstacles. To name a few:

 

*Negotiating with the label or artist for rights to the material;

 

*Tracking down/obtaining/verifying source tapes of the best quality (This can be particularly problematic if the goal is to release hi-res because while the original multi-track masters may be high-rate, the 2-channel mix-downs might not be as high or the label may only have access to the downsampled-for-CD files.);

 

*In the case of source material on analog tape, the model, heads, alignment, and electronics of the tape deck used for transcribing, as well as the A/D converter and all involved skills and associated electronics will have an impact on the final product. (Will there be a PONO studio and Steve Hoffman-caliber guy on staff overseeing production?)

 

 

So far as I have read, NY and Co. have only said they will attempt to obtain the best source material. It is unclear if that means just whatever the highest-res files the label sends them, or if it will involve any extraordinary efforts to produce albums from material closest to the masters.

 

Taking a larger view, I personally am hoping that PONO will not just become a source for hi-res reissues. I don't think that is what the world or the movement towards high quality downloads needs at all! What we need is for EVERY new and existing artist release to be offered at full-res (even just Redbook would be fine with me). A few hundred or even a few thousand titles is not going to put much of a dent in the universe of access/awareness of quality music files. PONO will certainly raise some awareness--as it already has a little with national press coverage--but my biggest hope/dream is that it somehow prompts Apple to flip the switch in a year or two to offering all iTunes users the choice between downloading its current AAC or choosing FLAC for a quarter or a couple bucks more (per track or album respectively).

[ulogin]

I am really curious why they picked Ayre and dumped Meridian eventually. There are two possibilities from what I read.

 

1. Meridian declined the offer because Pono did not give them a sufficient lead time. Ayre took over, and agreed to finish the design within four weeks. Hefley of Ayre admitted that the partnership "came together only about 60 days ago" and they "spent three straight weeks just hard-core working" because Pono had "a deadline to get this done".

 

Ayre hears 'buzz' from PonoMusic player | Today's News | Boulder County Business Report

Boulder firm develops chip for Neil Young venture | CharlotteObserver.com

 

2. The choice was made based on SQ. The quote was taken from their Kickstarter's page:

 

'Recently Neil wanted to listen to a new prototype of the player which had new audio enhancements and to compare it to the previous version. He listened to the newer version for about a minute and then asked us to play the older one and we did. He listened to it for about 3 seconds and turned it off and started walking out of the room. I thought something had gone wrong and asked him what happened? He simply said "the new one is better." I was astonished. I asked him how he could tell in 3 seconds? How could he have possibly listened long enough? His response caught me by surprise. He said "I don't listen, I feel!".'

 

Right. Three seconds. Based on the "feeling" of one person (and his hearing ability is very much lost)...

[ulogin]

And Pono please add EQ and Crossfeed in your player. They are basic DSPs. Even Sansa Clips can do those.

[beetlemania]

I am really curious why they picked Ayre and dumped Meridian eventually. There are two possibilities from what I read.

 

That's a good question. I can't imagine it's because Meridian didn't have enough lead time. They had FAR more than Ayre apparently had:

EXCLUSIVE: Neil Young visits Meridian

 

I think your second possibility is more likely. From the BCBR link you provided:

"Young had gotten wind of some devices Ayre makes for the professional audio world [QA-9?], and liked what he heard. PonoMusic officials then approached Ayre about designing the guts of their device, while PonoMusic designed the look, navigation and other aspects."

 

Perhaps Meridian and Pono couldn't come to mutually agreeable terms, but that quote makes it seem that NY preferred Ayre's SQ.

[Superdad]

I am really curious why they picked Ayre and dumped Meridian eventually. There are two possibilities from what I read.

 

I recall Meridian stating on record that 24/96 is more than enough. Maybe there was some disagreement over that.

[REShaman]

Richard: I am pretty sure that I get your point--and those of others wondering about how PONO will insure that they are offering "the best available" as NY puts it.

 

As every label and service attempting reissues in the past has found out--and as we listeners have experienced from the end product--there are tons of variables and obstacles. To name a few:

 

*Negotiating with the label or artist for rights to the material;

 

*Tracking down/obtaining/verifying source tapes of the best quality (This can be particularly problematic if the goal is to release hi-res because while the original multi-track masters may be high-rate, the 2-channel mix-downs might not be as high or the label may only have access to the downsampled-for-CD files.);

 

*In the case of source material on analog tape, the model, heads, alignment, and electronics of the tape deck used for transcribing, as well as the A/D converter and all involved skills and associated electronics will have an impact on the final product. (Will there be a PONO studio and Steve Hoffman-caliber guy on staff overseeing production?)

 

 

So far as I have read, NY and Co. have only said they will attempt to obtain the best source material. It is unclear if that means just whatever the highest-res files the label sends them, or if it will involve any extraordinary efforts to produce albums from material closest to the masters.

 

Taking a larger view, I personally am hoping that PONO will not just become a source for hi-res reissues. I don't think that is what the world or the movement towards high quality downloads needs at all! What we need is for EVERY new and existing artist release to be offered at full-res (even just Redbook would be fine with me). A few hundred or even a few thousand titles is not going to put much of a dent in the universe of access/awareness of quality music files. PONO will certainly raise some awareness--as it already has a little with national press coverage--but my biggest hope/dream is that it somehow prompts Apple to flip the switch in a year or two to offering all iTunes users the choice between downloading its current AAC or choosing FLAC for a quarter or a couple bucks more (per track or album respectively).

 

Hello Alex,

 

I appreciate your response. If I am correct we are converging early on in reaching the destination we both hope for. Hope, a word, an expectation, a wish for both of us in using that perspective, if I am correct.

 

Perhaps, the obvious isn't. Perhaps to take on an industry well-entrenched in its system of producing music as a business versus artists who do so requires a movement, a starting point and the momentum to move mountains. If the Mountain will not come to Mohammed, perhaps Neil Young is going to the mountain. Given the Public's response which signifies as good a start as any and the hint of a momentum provided the people Neil Young trusts and delegates to are sincere and competent. We need action not good intention. We need diligence not excuses, not convenient coulda, shoulda, woulda.

 

Speaking of trust, some artists are business men and have other competencies. And some are not and delegate to those who would betray their trust to their economic disadvantage. I am not informed, or know and understand the business end of music production. How much hands on Neil Young intends is not something discussed. Given Billy Joel's problems and losses of some 80 million allegedly by a trusted representative or whatever his responsibilities were, I merely mention how different templates for success there are along the way. Joel was not vigilant and may have delegated more than his trust. He may delegated his responsibility. We are after all Humans-in-Training and some lessons come hard.

 

Success is measured by many indices. Whether what we hope for and what those delegated with the trust, control and therefore, the power power to follow through with Neil Young's mission correspond to the same values and criteria, remain to be discovered.

 

I would have felt better had Neil Young's responses to Chris left me with a stronger foundation for the Hope we both exercise. I heard, perhaps understatement and a reserve - not psychic - but I felt equivocation. I wanted to hear iron in his words. I am a student of Huna, now for thirty some years. My Hope is directly attached to the Highest Good. One who lives the action of Pono sets a pathway with his/her intention; lines up the obstacles which become a blue print for what to turn into opportunities and then follows through with action consistent with those outcomes making course correction along the way, just as professional pilots do 90 to 95% of the time and land at the right destination.

 

This presupposes that a landing field has been constructed for the mission to land on. I am speaking in metaphors which may or may not find fertile ground in the overall discussion. Medicine, Magic and Miracles (setting goals, taking action to accomplish those goals, accomplishing those goals and able to repeat the accomplishment at will) is my construct.

 

Sincerity is measured by time. What tunes get played in the future, I've stocked up on the player. Hope they fit the bill.

 

Thank you for your thoughts.

 

With appreciation,

Richard

[flatmap]

Right. Three seconds. Based on the "feeling" of one person (and his hearing ability is very much lost)...

 

Ulogin, maybe I'm missing your point, but why wouldn't it be fine to judge a musical passage based on feeling?