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Dirac: Just say no!


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Speaking of the computer, you should check how you are bringing the mic into the computer for measurement. I couldn't get more info on this from the Dirac site, but the typical sound card mic input is simply horrible, as you know, and can include several types of EQ meant for voice recognition. Those things have wicked curves, you'll need to at least bypass them. Or, you need some sort of good, flat mic pre to make this all work.

 

Yes, thanks. I've been reading about this. It's beginning to sound very involved, which may be one of the reasons why Dirac fuzzes such matters: If "ordinary" people really knew what proper required of them in terms of technical knowledge, time for experimentation, etc., they probably wouldn't shell our $300-$800 on software that probably won't deliver on its promise without an investment in effort they probably aren't prepared to make.

 

This is my problem with Dirac: I believe they are vague about details because full disclosure would deter those who are not hard-core enthusiasts from buying their product. And there just aren't enough hard-core enthusiasts out there to sustain a growing business. They need dummies. Like me.

 

I think this was reflected in the Dirac salesman's response to my question about the use of the microphone. When I tried to isolate variables, he got evasive...or vague...or something.

 

Look, almost anything worth doing is hard. Why should be different? That said, there are only 24 hours in the day and life requires us to make choices. I'm thinking now of dumping the equipment on Ebay and getting season tickets to the symphony or something.

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But the step that you go to next... that of accusing Dirac of being INTENTIONALLY misleading because they just want to profit off you by making you buy their microphone and only their microphone, is not only unjustified (because you have no proof of that) it is not even logical.

 

Sigh. In case others are tempted by Dirac's honey trap, please see post #7, #9, #11. I'm trying to extract clarity from the Dirac salesman. Then, in post #15 he appears to contradict himself. In post #16, I ask for clarification. In post #18, he gets snarky.

 

I have inferred that there is a "method to the madness" at Dirac. A reasonable person can certainly disagree, but it is hardly illogical. "Proof," or lack thereof, is a non-sequitor in a forum such as this.

 

logical because by using such trickery to get us to buy their microphone - trickery which would make their whole system seem not to work - they would be cutting their own throats... especially if somewhere in the instructions there were not at least an OBVIOUS hint that one should buy their mic and they left it up to the consumer to figure it out for himself. It seems obvious to me that if it were all left up to the potential customer to discover this, then the outcome would be that anyone trying Dirac and, by happenstance, choosing the wrong mic would just assume (as you did) that the problem is with Dirac and give up. How would such an eventually in any way serve Dirac?

 

This is a fair point. I don't think Dirac is venal so, no, I don't see that kind of conscious manipulation at work. I think the reality is fuzzier, and it works to their advantage. After all, confirmation bias exerts a powerful influence on human behavior: We all see and hear what we want to believe, and it's only with great care that we're able to extricate ourselves from its reality distortion field. Most people, however, don't bother, which is why consumer marketing is a confirmation bias playground, particularly for companies like Dirac that market miraculous solutions commanding more miraculous profit margins.

 

When was the last time you spent $800 for...a digital download. When was the last time you heard people say, with a (presumably) straight face, that this was money well spent? Oh my heavens!

 

Anyway, to return to your question, I think people believe what they want to believe, and when confronted with something that is not what they expected, they find a way to rationalize it--"Oh, it must have been the microphone!" And Dirac is there to provide a solution...for a price. That's a standard-issue consumer marketing ploy--no more, no less.

 

By the way, just for fun, I've now ordered that very measurement microphone the salesman promoted...just not from Dirac. (An aside: Dirac's website claims they're offering it at the "lowest possible cost"; I was able to buy it for less elsewhere. Why am I not surprised?) So when the microphone arrives I'll go through the setup again and then be ready for Dirac to work its "magic."

 

I'll let you know what I hear.

 

And then I'll let my free trial lapse. Hundreds of dollars for a digital download is a bridge too far for me. Especially from those folks.

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And then I'll let my free trial lapse. Hundreds of dollars for a digital download is a bridge too far for me.

 

So, if they burned it onto a $1 CD for you, the price would be ok? This is a very sophisticated piece of software that has a fairly small audience. I'm sure it cost Dirac 500K (minimum) to develop it, write the docs, create the website, market it, and pay people like "flak" to support it.

 

I see this as a product for people with expensive audio systems. For us, spending hundreds of dollars to really improve our systems is a bargain, given how much we already have invested. If that is not you, there are several free alternatives, but don't expect them to be easier than Dirac. Most are far more complex. That is why I'm sticking with my Tact for now (I don't have the time to learn a new system.) Dirac should make a less expensive lite version for those that can't afford the full version and don't want to delve too deeply.

 

As to your attacks on the Dirac sales person "flak," he has been super helpful to lots of CA readers in half a dozen Dirac topics here. I read his interactions with you as his trying to be helpful and you being very frustrated and wanting to vent more than wanting to work on a solution. We have all been there, but you need to stop taking it out on this guy. He doesn't own the company, he probably does not work on commission, and he really was trying to help you.

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flak has been far more than "just" a salesperson here. He has been an active and interested participant in many of the DSP discussions, and extremely helpful to many posters (me included). (I say this as someone whose instinct is to distrust sales people and who enjoys kicking them out of his lab at work.)

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So, if they burned it onto a $1 CD for you, the price would be ok?

 

That's the choice? A $75 download would be fine with me. Given a marginal cost per download asymptotically approaching zero, this would still allow for an adequate profit.

 

I see this as a product for people with expensive audio systems. For us, spending hundreds of dollars to really improve our systems is a bargain, given how much we already have invested.[/Quote]

 

Ergo, price-gouging is justified?

 

If that is not you, there are several free alternatives, but don't expect them to be easier than Dirac. Most are far more complex.[/Quote]

 

It is me but, like I said, I'm finding the audio subject a lot more complex than I imagined. I don't have the time to achieve a sound I find tolerable so I may just well dump it and move on.

 

As to your attacks on the Dirac sales person "flak," he has been super helpful to lots of CA readers in half a dozen Dirac topics here. I read his interactions with you as his trying to be helpful and you being very frustrated and wanting to vent more than wanting to work on a solution. We have all been there, but you need to stop taking it out on this guy. He doesn't own the company, he probably does not work on commission, and he really was trying to help you.

 

I'm glad to hear the Dirac salesman has been "super helpful." I found him to be super typical of high-margin salespeople--in possession of a lovely bedside manner, until you press them on their inconsistencies, at which point they become, well, what they are.

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Thanks. I'm looking into REW now. Copious supporting material, which is nice.
REW is, like DIrac, an excellent product but:

1. REW's learning curve (at least for me) was much steeper than it was for Dirac.

2. REW will measure your room and calculate the correction filters but it cannot implement them. You need some additional software or hardware to do that.

3. It will still be necessary to replace your microphone if you hope to get useful results.

Kal Rubinson

Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

 

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REW is, like DIrac, an excellent product but:

1. REW's learning curve (at least for me) was much steeper than it was for Dirac.

2. REW will measure your room and calculate the correction filters but it cannot implement them. You need some additional software or hardware to do that.

3. It will still be necessary to replace your microphone if you hope to get useful results.

 

I know. There are no shortcuts. That's true of just about anything worth doing.

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That's the choice? A $75 download would be fine with me. Given a marginal cost per download asymptotically approaching zero, this would still allow for an adequate profit.

 

Since you don't know their costs, I don't see how you know what price will generate an "adequate" profit. The main cost of software is not the download or the package. It is the R&D.

 

I don't disagree that the price is on the high side. I said so in another topic when the product was introduced. However, I don't pretend to know what it should cost or how much profit they make or should make. All I know is what I personally am willing to pay.

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REW is, like DIrac, an excellent product but:

1. REW's learning curve (at least for me) was much steeper than it was for Dirac.

 

Yeah, it is like you need a Ph.D. in an applied area of Fourier analysis to understand the documentation (and in my case, even that didn't help much.)

 

In general, if you can reproduce the same measurement using two different independent pieces of software, and preferably two different mics, then you can start to believe it is real.

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Since you don't know their costs, I don't see how you know what price will generate an "adequate" profit. The main cost of software is not the download or the package. It is the R&D.

 

I don't disagree that the price is on the high side. I said so in another topic when the product was introduced. However, I don't pretend to know what it should cost or how much profit they make or should make. All I know is what I personally am willing to pay.

 

You're 100% correct. Shortly after I wrote that I thought it was a dumb thing to have written.

 

Irony. They're German, right? EU-types frequently accuse U.S. companies of this behavior, employing the same half-assed rhetoric I used. So I take it back.

 

That said, the "magical mystery meat" aspect of Dirac's offerings, playing to the aforementioned confirmation bias running riot in the mind of the well-heeled consumer, most likely empowers the company to price its offerings at the highest possible price point.

 

That's not a crime. It's just capitalism.

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Dirac at least offers a free trial. I free-trialed it three times before I got it. If they really were shysters, they wouldn't allow you to test-drive the vehicle. It is entirely possible your room and/or system is simply incompatible with the pre-sets coded into the software; at least you get to find out before giving them money.

 

From what I found, there really is only one other option on a mac platform, and it wasn't as good. I actually would prefer a more DIY, open-source solution, not out of cheapness (although there is that aspect), but because I like to tinker with things and would also prefer it worked as an AU plug-in (which is "the Apple way" to do it). At the end of the day, Dirac provided a solution which wasn't exactly what I wanted, but was worth two trips to the grocery store (in nearly worthless California dollars).

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Dirac at least offers a free trial. I free-trialed it three times before I got it. If they really were shysters, they wouldn't allow you to test-drive the vehicle. It is entirely possible your room and/or system is simply incompatible with the pre-sets coded into the software; at least you get to find out before giving them money.

 

From what I found, there really is only one other option on a mac platform, and it wasn't as good. I actually would prefer a more DIY, open-source solution, not out of cheapness (although there is that aspect), but because I like to tinker with things and would also prefer it worked as an AU plug-in (which is "the Apple way" to do it). At the end of the day, Dirac provided a solution which wasn't exactly what I wanted, but was worth two trips to the grocery store (in nearly worthless California dollars).

 

They're not shysters, strictly speaking. They're just marketing to consumers, taking advantage of that fact that few of their customers would acknowledge confirmation bias if it bopped them on the nose.

 

Caveat emptor and all, right?

 

Completely agree re: AU plug-in.

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In fact, I'm getting more and more curious...

 

I asked, rhetorically, how Dirac would "correct" the acoustics of Boston's Symphony Hall. Unfortunately, I can't put that one to the test. But I might be able to finagle something in a much smaller hall, one which is also among the most acoustically perfect spaces in North America. Now THAT might be entertaining. Hmmm....

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I think people believe what they want to believe, and when confronted with something that is not what they expected, they find a way to rationalize it.

 

I would say this pretty much sums up your attitude. Forum members here have tried to offer you help, advice and information only to be berated by you when don't agree with them or you interpret their words in a way not intended or as if they have some sort of agenda. May I suggest you step back and reevaluate how you are asking for and responding to the help and advice offered to you :)

 

I own Dirac and have found it to work very well and have had great support from Flak as well as their online support team. I downloaded the trial and eventually purchased as I saw the value in their product.

 

You may want to browse the other Dirac threads as well as the Amarra Symphony w/IRC for some great setup information and advice on using Dirac. The Sonic Studios web site even has a video tutorial on setting up Amarra Symphony w/IRC which is supplied by Dirac.

 

As others have mentioned your initial measurement looks very strange - Pretty much the inverse of what others get. If I were to guess not having a calibrated measurement microphone is the major culprit which you are addressing. But also mentioned is your speakers have crossover settings that need to be dealt with as well to find the best settings as well as your Sub. From reading your earlier post on your speakers it appears you already had some issues even before adding Dirac to the equation. Dirac and other software is only as good as the information it is given to work with.

 

I wish you well in your endeavors to find the sound you are looking for to enjoy your music. Believe me, Dirac is very nice and can have a very beneficial effect on your system once you get the correct "tools for the job". The CA Forums are a great resource for our hobby and benefit from the knowledgeable professional members as well as the lay persons who contribute their time and advice.

 

Good luck!

 

Chuck

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I would say this pretty much sums up your attitude. Forum members here have tried to offer you help, advice and information only to be berated by you when don't agree with them or you interpret their words in a way not intended or as if they have some sort of agenda. May I suggest you step back and reevaluate how you are asking for and responding to the help and advice offered to you :)

 

I own Dirac and have found it to work very well and have had great support from Flak as well as their online support team. I downloaded the trial and eventually purchased as I saw the value in their product.

 

You may want to browse the other Dirac threads as well as the Amarra Symphony w/IRC for some great setup information and advice on using Dirac. The Sonic Studios web site even has a video tutorial on setting up Amarra Symphony w/IRC which is supplied by Dirac.

 

As others have mentioned your initial measurement looks very strange - Pretty much the inverse of what others get. If I were to guess not having a calibrated measurement microphone is the major culprit which you are addressing. But also mentioned is your speakers have crossover settings that need to be dealt with as well to find the best settings as well as your Sub. From reading your earlier post on your speakers it appears you already had some issues even before adding Dirac to the equation. Dirac and other software is only as good as the information it is given to work with.

 

I wish you well in your endeavors to find the sound you are looking for to enjoy your music. Believe me, Dirac is very nice and can have a very beneficial effect on your system once you get the correct "tools for the job". The CA Forums are a great resource for our hobby and benefit from the knowledgeable professional members as well as the lay persons who contribute their time and advice.

 

Good luck!

 

Chuck

 

Thanks, Chuck. But I'm not selling anything here.

 

For the record, please note I "berated" (and not really) two individuals, one of whom was your salesman, only when he turned slippery.

 

But, alas, I was oversensitive and then took an entirely unmerited swipe at the hi-fi journalist--who, in his spare time, happens to be a highly respected scientist. Dr. Rubinson, my apologies for that.

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