Neil young announces the launch of ponomusic

[realhifi]

Kickstarter?! Really, after all this wait--and the supposed amount of money and development behind this--they are going with a Kickstarter campaign to gauge interest and fund the project?

 

Really? Good luck boys.

[realhifi]

As the saying goes: CONTENT IS KING. If Apple had launched the iTunes store without having deals with all the record labels then the masses would not have shown up.

Look also to the turn-around of many cable/satellite TV channels: All the original and compelling shows they began producing a few years ago have completely reversed their fortunes.

If PONO launches with compelling content then it stands a chance. Otherwise it will just become a curiosity and then the best we can hope for is it somehow spurring the larger services to offer higher-resolution downloads. Frankly, I'd be happier if I could buy 16/44.1 tracks and albums from iTunes. I am getting tired of oredering CDs from Amazon.

 

Agree 100%. They will need to really make a splash if they are looking to be something other than a very small niche in today's super heated marketplace. As iTunes is currently showing, the digital music download market is actually going down not up what with the various streaming services available for both portable and home delivery.

 

I too would be happy if I could buy 16/44.1 from Apple. Maybe this will turn out well if this helps Apple decide to make a push into higher res downloads. I really do hope that this turns out well for Pono and Neil but it is telling that no one in the investment community has put up the cash needed to get this off the ground and that they are carefully testing the waters with their Kickstarter campaign. I wonder if Neil and Crazy Horse are playing at SXSW?

[realhifi]

These steep premiums will absolutely keep the young audience away, even if Neil (my wife and I love Neil, and our middle son is named after him) convinces the record labels to stop all the faux crap...and to bring on the Taylor Swifts and Jay Z's and lesser known college-radio artists. It's one thing to one-time spend $150 on Beats cans, it's another to shell out $25 an album for stuff that cost you zero to $9 previously. Let's hope competition brings all this stuff down, but that's a huge leap.

 

Right on the money.

 

It HAS to cost less (or the same) than a physical cd or it will be a non starter. My 15 yr old son will buy an LP at $16 but balks at spending money on downloads in part because of what to him is the somewhat transient nature of "files" and the ability to listen to Spotify at a HIGHER resolution than what he can purchase music from iTunes. LPs are cool. High res files? Not so much, according to him and his group of friends.

 

I would think that $10 for a cd quality download and $15 for an LP quality one ought to be about right.

[realhifi]

The physical aspects of a release, or rather its absence in case of digital music, is something I'm discussing a lot with labels. Apart from being great objects (3.5k of them filling a good part of my room here), covers served a function, so what will be their use if there's nothing to protect anymore? Since we are talking about high resolution here, my proposal is a well made PDF booklet + a printable item, a photograph or design in high resolution that you can have professionally printed in a lab, framed or perspexed (pardon my english…). Not necessarily square, not necessarily limited to 12*12". Again - apart from some extra loving care from the artist/label's side - this means nothing but some extra megabytes added to the file you will buy.

 

I like the idea of going back to a readable size and universal format that could include lyrics, photos, whatever that would be included when you purchased a high quality download. Maybe a serial number on it that would denote "ownership" of that album.

 

I might just buy into this purchasing of downloads if something like that were included.

[realhifi]

I think what drives the trend is money. Let's see how Pono music sells starting this fall. Physical CD sales are dropping like a rock, and mp3 downloads are down 6% compared to the previous year in the latest figures. Meanwhile, streaming is gaining market share. If the record companies want to fight streaming, mp3 downloads can't offer better quality and CDs can't offer download convenience. Maybe Pono's a viable alternative - guess we'll find out.

 

Perfect analysis of the market today. You have to know that Apple is following this trend closely also. I can't imagine that their answer is completely iTunes Radio but I could very well be overestimating them too. If this Pono venture grows legs and there is a clamor from the public for higher resolution music then you can bet that Apple will follow suit.

I like what Neil is trying to accomplish here but also hope it's not a "boutique" option that fails to address the huge audience that iTunes now services.

 

This is last QUARTERS numbers for iTunes.

 

Apple saw its iTunes platform garner record revenues of $4.7 billion during its first financial quarter of 2014, ended December 28 2013.

[realhifi]

Those numbers are for all content sold by the iTunes Store, not just music.

 

True. The point was to show the incredible income potential that is available. The hope is that Apple can see the potential of high resolution music because they have have such a HUGE audience and infrastructure in place that if they would only get the hell off the dime then we would all benefit. If they would come out and acknowledge that high res is much better then it would be game, set, match and off we go to finally getting ALL of our music delivered in it's original glory.

 

I still believe that Apple holds the key to this and if they jump on board then here comes Amazon, Google, etc.

[realhifi]

Record labels, like most businesses, don't shy away from income. If streaming is one area of income, selling high resolution downloads may be another. This isn't a winner takes all world. Profit is profit.

 

Bingo. If Apple (and others) can find a way to sell higher resolution downloads at a profit (as an alternative to theirs and others streaming services which could stay at lower res) then I am sure they would. I can see the low res available to "rent" and the higher res available to purchase. Sounds like a sound business model to me. They certainly have the audience and market.

[realhifi]

Bingo. If Apple (and others) can find a way to sell higher resolution downloads at a profit (as an alternative to theirs and others streaming services which could stay at lower res) then I am sure they would. I can see the low res available to "rent" and the higher res available to purchase. Sounds like a sound business model to me. They certainly have the audience and market.

 

Probably not good form to comment on ones own post but....

 

As I thought more about it, along with hearing Mr. Cook lament lately on the iPod market dwindling I couldn't help think about the opportunity for Apple to sell different devices (which they sure love to do) which would take advantage of higher res downloads. It could be a player that both streamed their radio and also played back music at a high bit rate. Make a big deal about it, let it play flac files, make it a music only device with little in the way of bells and whistles, tell the world they are "music centric", lead the charge. They could make (and sell) better ear buds, sell music as if it's new, sell a ton of the "new" players. Heck, they could even make the Mini into something like a limited edition "Music Server" that really held your whole hi res music collection and was coupled to your new iMusic player so that when you heard something you liked on that devices iRadio at a lower res you could click it and it would download to your "Music Server" so you had that at home waiting.

 

If iTunes music is indeed waning I can actually see this as something that could really fly. Let's see if they have the cajones.

[realhifi]

I don't need a portable player but if they have a kickstarter campaign for the music site I will be all in. Say $300 worth of downloads if you pleadge $200 now or something along those lines. Something to get the wheels in motion on the software side.

[realhifi]

Sorry everyone, but with 3 kids ranging 12-18, I can tell you that it is not the kids who are paying for their iPhones, Xboxes, computers, Netflix, and other content. It's us parents!

 

Amen to that! They (we) also are the ones getting the iTunes bills on their Visa cards. One bill with $100 (4-5 high res downloads) and believe me, the you know what will hit the fan. I really don't see this targeted at kids to be honest. More to the 25-50 crowd is what I envision. Quite honestly I'm not 100% sure what their target group is. With Neil Young being the figurehead they have got to be losing a huge segment of the "young" audience they are looking to attract. My 15 yr old son teases my wife about listening to that "old man" and him and his friends would no more be inclined to follow what him and his contemporaries are pushing no matter if it was good for them or not.

[realhifi]

[quote=Audio_ELF;308519

 

 

 

Or perhaps they have done proper market research and I'm just being pessimistic...

 

Eloise

 

That is what I am hoping. I am more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this but I do have to wonder.

[realhifi]

 

 

 

 

***

And if they want or need a lot of tracks for the original, they are going to be limited by most systems available to them today, in terms of the sample rate at which their gear will work. (There are exceptions but that is exactly what they are: exceptions, not the rule.)

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

So does a lot of this simply come down to cost, ie. the studio not able to afford the tools neccesary for proper high resolution recording and mastering? Is this a byproduct of the shift from analog to digital recording?

[realhifi]

Sure would like to know what recordings were played in that car.

 

Maybe they were all analog recordings which when brought up to 24/192 can really strut their stuff. As an aside to this, I can see if part of this is a push among musicians (Dave Grohl being famously anti Pro Tools along with Mr Young) to go back to recording in analog so that when you do put out a high res digital file it means something.

[realhifi]

Pretty much all new recording start as high rez. The reason the don't release high rez versions of their final mixdowns is they think it doesn't matter. The audiophile market may be convinced that they can hear the difference between standard CD and high rez, the major labels think differently,

 

So Barry's statement about studios not recording at a higher rate does not apply to the major lables?

 

"There are several reasons why those original recordings are usually at a *much* lower resolution. First, remember that most recordings made in typical studios utilize a whole lot more than just the two channels we use for stereo playback. The fact is that most (not all but most) systems will simply not allow the *dozens* of tracks commonly used today, to be recorded and played at high resolution. The systems just choke and freeze. So I see a lot of original recordings done at 24/44.

 

When the time comes to create the stereo mix, if they're going through an analog console, they might encode the mix at a higher rate but the original source recording (where, in my experience, 90-95% of the final quality ceiling has already been determined) is still at 44.1k. And if they're mixing "in the box" (digitally), they're better off leaving the sample rate where it is. So many of the finished stereo recordings I see for mastering at 24/44.

 

(Of course, when the source is an analog stereo mix, such as most legacy product, there is no reason why the transfer to digital master can't be done at 24/192.)"

[realhifi]

Hi David,

 

I think it largely comes down to what most current technology is capable of doing. Simultaneously unning several dozen tracks of high resolution digital audio is asking a lot of most current computer/audio systems. Throw in additional "plug-ins" used for signal processing and the load, already too much, is only larger.

 

The lure of multitracking is strong and of course, for certain types of recordings, is necessary. That combination says we're not going to see many popular artists deciding to record in purist fashion, playing "live" for a minimal array of microphones -- something which is easy to accomplish at high resolution. The technology has a way to go yet before 50-100 tracks of 24/96 (much less 24/192) is possible without a hitch.

 

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

Thanks for that explanation.

[realhifi]

Hi David,

 

It applies to the overwhelming majority of systems I've ever encountered. Doesn't matter if a major label owns them or they're in someone's attic.

As I said, there are exceptions but they are just that: exceptions, not even remotely close to being the rule.

 

Best rergards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

The Soundkeeper | Audio, Music, Recording, Playback

Barry Diament Audio

 

Sooo, are we charging at windmills when in essence MUCH of music recorded in the last, what, 15-20 yrs will not ever really be 24/192? Digitally recorded material that is.

[realhifi]

I would just like to thank Barry D and the others that are involved in recording as a business that are generously sharing their experience in that field on this site and specifically this thread. Thanks folks, very enlightening.

[realhifi]

Yet another opinion

 

Why Pono's massive Kickstarter success means absolutely nothing to Apple | Breaking Apple News, Tips and Reviews from The Unofficial Apple Weblog

 

 

24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed

 

I can't imagine anyone believes that the PONO player is a threat to Apple. In fact I don't recall reading that anyone has even said that. As a unique player that will play a higher resolution than Apples products (they can only go as high as 24/48) it will surely find some fans but obviously it won't put a dent in Apples bottom line. They have a few other fish to fry at the moment.

 

I don't think the folks behind PONO believe that they are any threat whatsoever to Apple either but they may just believe they can make Apple at least sit up and take notice and MAYBE get iTunes to open things up a bit as far as both resolution and what they demand from the lables.

[realhifi]

Hi RealAudio - At this point I must ask why you are here at CA posting in this Pono thread?

 

Many people here are excited, hopeful, yet guarded about what might become of Pono. On the other hand you are insistent on posting negative opinions about it and linking to other opinions about why it's going to fail, makes no sense, and means nothing to anyone other than the audiophile niche.

 

I see your posts much the same way as a sixth grader going into a kindergarden classroom and yelling, "Santa Clause doesn't exist." The benefit of your posts and a child talking about Santa is solely for you and the child respectively.

 

I like opinions on all sides of every topic. However the line appears to have been crossed between offering a difference of opinion and stroking your own ego in an effort to be the first person to say, "I told you so, Pono would fail." How about sending yourself a letter with a post mark of today that says the same thing?

 

People here who think Pono will succeed or hope that Pono succeeds express their opinions and enjoy reading other opinions. However, it's really weird that you insist on talking about what's wrong with Pono and why it won't succeed. Your comments are way beyond the general opinion that it won't succeed. I haven't seen anyone come close to your level of vitriol in suggesting that Pono will succeed or even that level in hoping it succeeds.

 

Again, please let me know why you are posting here at CA in this Pono thread. This may help me understand your comments.

 

I hope PONO succeeds but I really appreciate being able to read other opinions, even loud and vociferous ones!

[realhifi]

There's an expression in the market, buy the rumor, sell the news. I think I see that here. Lots of enthusiasm for a product that doesn't exist. When its finally delivered, how much of that enthusiasm will be evaporated by the reality of the actual product. All too often the best product is the one that exists before delivery. I seem to be the only one willing to remind people of this fact.

 

If you look at the most recent article I linked to, for the first time I saw they are projecting 8 hours battery life and they compared it to the iPod battery life. Battery life is pretty important to the success of a portable product. Power management is very difficult. I have a Nexus 7 and the most recent iPad. The Nexus 7's battery life is half what Google promised, the iPad right on target. If they are smart as Google, then the 8 hours turns to 4, not long enough for your average Wagner opera.

 

 

Finally, I think you should encourage different opinions, not look at nonadherence to the consensus as "vitriol".

 

You ARE banging your drum loudly but I have to agree with you here. I happen to like everything about the PONO clan and their shoot from the hip shotgun approach to their crusade against bad recording, bad mastering and low resolution but I also don't mind hearing every viewpoint there is out there in the marketplace on this. If the folks at PONO know what's good for them, they will too.

[realhifi]

Chris. I have seen threads about cables and "objective" vs "subjective" that are far more damning than someone pointing out the lack of merits about a product that is not out yet.

I am sure Mr. Young with his decades of loudly voicing his (some times very unpopular) views on things, would like hearing some dissenting among the ranks. If negative points are brought up that help the folks at PONO deliver a better product then I'd have to say bravo and welcome to marketplace.

[realhifi]

I'm with you. However, what about RealAudio's posts aims to be constructive criticism? Is a link to Monty's article really a hint to Neil Young? Talk about a round about way if communicating.

 

CA is about increasing our enjoyment of this wonderful hobby. I just don't see RealAudio's post as anything but speaking to hear his own voice. Has he offered any information that CA readers really haven't heard? I appears he is trying to save you from yourself.

 

I suppose. If he wants to rant without any real rancor directed at anyone it does seem like he should be allowed to though. As far as constructive criticism, why does it matter if it's constructive? It IS a thread about PONO and as far as I've seen he does seem to be pretty much (relentlessly) on topic! I for one am enjoying all aspects of both praise, challenge and critique on this subject and find it turning into a fascinating excersize in marketing in the new era of social media. I'm just really curious to see the next step in their plan.

[realhifi]

Not specifically related to Pono, more Kickstarter in general. If you've been paying attention, Facebook just bought Oculus for $2 billion after they were funded to the tune of $2 million on Kickstarter. What did all those people who gave them $2 million to make them successful, bupkis. After giving Neil Young (net worth 65 million) $5 million or so, if Pono is a roaring success, what do you get?

 

 

Attention Suckers: Please Send Us Your Money - Bloomberg View

 

A cool high def player and files to play on it. You get something for your money is my point.

[realhifi]

I hope that PONO's files will be available in AIFF in addition to FLAC on their store site.

After the dust up that HD Tracks went through only offering FLAC for quite awhile there I would hope that the folks at PONO will be offering more file types right off the bat.

 

Anyone had conversations with HD Tracks about all this PONO talk? They would seem to be likely to be THE store for PONO. Can't imagine too many hi res music sites would be viable and they already have their toe in the water in this field.

[realhifi]

Actually it would make sense for them to offer this to Apple customers so as to make Apple give pause and possibly up their game on their music players seeing as they can't play very high resolution music.

 

With Apples customers buying cd quality and higher files to play on their iPhones from someone else that might give em a poke.