A Better Center Channel?

[dc2bluelight]

Mayhem:

 

DCBlueLight:

I am challenging your assumption that what we hear is totally preference and not factual. Standing in front of the television and speaking to a person at our accustomed listening and viewing location, human speech is much more natural and intelligable with two center channel speakers than with one. I make no assumptions as to why, just that it is so. (grin) I cannot explain it well either.

 

If I were to guess, I would say our room is not well suited for standard topology.

 

-Paul

 

The advantage is yours. You are there, I'm not. From the photos, you have a fairly "live' room, and are using Magnepans. You've already gone well beyond "standard technology".

 

There's no way for you do make this comparison, but if you were to compare your setup to a purpose-built, treated and calibrated listening or HT room, you'd hear the difference in sonic image character and definition, among other things.

 

The thing that is "better", however, is the one that pleases you the most. And I, for one, will not challenge that.

[Paul R]

Nope- that one isn't mine, though I do have some Magnepans available, I don't have a tri-center setup. I just have a fairly odd room.

 

-Paul

 

The advantage is yours. You are there, I'm not. From the photos, you have a fairly "live' room, and are using Magnepans. You've already gone well beyond "standard technology".

 

There's no way for you do make this comparison, but if you were to compare your setup to a purpose-built, treated and calibrated listening or HT room, you'd hear the difference in sonic image character and definition, among other things.

 

The thing that is "better", however, is the one that pleases you the most. And I, for one, will not challenge that.

[mayhem13]

Mayhem:

 

Yes, 12ft is the distance from the speakers where the bass is audible and the most natural. (Setup via Get Better Sound methods...)

 

The TV screen is centered between and about 18" behind the speakers. Due to the the slant range to the speakers, it is about the same physical distance.

 

There are areas in the room where the bass is totally cancelled out due to the ceiling slope. You can literally be standing 24" in front of a sub and not be able to hear it *at all* - while the pictures in the loft upstairs are shaking on the walls. Irritating.

 

Another reason why I tend to like Acoustic Suspension speakers is that the bass is not radiating up the back wall and winding up in the loft so much. Much nicer and less wearing on people who happen to be upstairs. Does this even with my much beloved Maggies of course.

 

DCBlueLight:

I am challenging your assumption that what we hear is totally preference and not factual. Standing in front of the television and speaking to a person at our accustomed listening and viewing location, human speech is much more natural and intelligable with two center channel speakers than with one. I make no assumptions as to why, just that it is so. (grin) I cannot explain it well either.

 

If I were to guess, I would say our room is not well suited for standard topology.

 

-Paul

 

That's a LONG distance for anything less than an 80" screen.

[Paul R]

That's a LONG distance for anything less than an 80" screen.

 

Really, it does not seem all that far to us. Have a 42" on the wall now and am replacing it with a 50". That's about as big as I care to go.

 

-Paul

[mayhem13]

Really, it does not seem all that far to us. Have a 42" on the wall now and am replacing it with a 50". That's about as big as I care to go.

 

-Paul

 

I'm not advocating an HT environment with THX specs, but that's a bit of a strain for older eyes. Go 60.........your movies will thank me!

[dc2bluelight]

Really, it does not seem all that far to us. Have a 42" on the wall now and am replacing it with a 50". That's about as big as I care to go.

 

-Paul

 

I think I'm not getting the picture! And yes, I'll say again, it's all about preference. I'm not suggesting the only way is to hit THX or SMPTE specs, but it's sometimes useful to see how apart from them a system is.

 

For a 42" screen, SMPTE states the longest allowable viewing distance is 5.7', THX gives the longest allowable distance of 6.6'. Those are not recommended distances, those are maximum allowable distances. A 60" screen bumps the figures out to 8.1' and 9.4' respectively. But, both SMPTE and THX are intending there to be a completely different entertainment experience, one you obviously do not prefer.

 

Clearly, your choice is a very strong preference with personal reasons to back it up. The fact that industry organizations say it's too small won't mean much. I, for one, won't dispute your choice, it's totally yours. But I would suggest there's a theme here that carries over from picture size to speaker layout, to room treatment, and speaker choice.

 

Please understand, I am NOT saying "you're wrong"! For some of us, part of the experience of viewing and listening is to try to match the creative environment as closely as practical. For us, not doing so is like touring the Louvre with tinted glasses on. For some, the pleasingly tinted experience is preferred, for others, it impedes the message the original artist was trying to communicate to us. Both have their points.

 

And, while I wouldn't call anything about your setup "wrong", it does explain why there's a strong preference for certain choices, and why the technically preferred choices are rejected as inferior.

[Paul R]

Hi Mayhem, Dc2Bluelight -

 

Ah yes, we are rather forced by circumstances to use the living room for audio and video, a task we never envisioned for it when we bought this home. A much more conventionally sized room upstairs was what we intended to use. Then my daughter started having epileptic siezures and my mother in law moved in after a heart attack. Plans had to change...

 

This particular space is ill suited for dual purposes, as in living in it and audio/video. But what is life without a challenge?

 

Most of what we watch is not THX movies- more often television shows from iTunes, Netflix, or Amazon. Often Brit shows, or even old B&W murder mysteries. A huge sceen is wasted on them, but more importantly, we don't want the scree so large or so immersive, it starts causing siezures. My mother in law has heed up a lot and has moved out, but we still are using the living room space now. (Actually, it's the only TV in the house, though there are multiple music systems.). We are a study in real world compromise.

 

Certainly we can, by no measure be called videophiles, but like what I imagine the great majority of people in the world desire, I do wish to be able to understand the dialog in what I am watching! In particular, I like the show "Person of Interest" - and they insist on whispering a lot on that show. The way the sound is mixed for that show makes it rather unintelligable for us in stereo. Thus- action to add center channel sound.

 

Honest dc2Bluelight, I get what you are saying, but our goal is not to match up a THX experience, just to reuse the audio gear which is basically setup for this space, to make videos better.

 

I do appreciate the tips, and now that I fully realize where you are coming from, i understand better what your suggestions mean. In our case, we have to make the technogy work in our environment, not build an environment where the technology works best. At least not yet.

[ringenesherre]

Wow. These THX guys are crazy. 26-36 degrees? We have a 51" flat screen at a distance of approx. 15'. That's completely fine for watching TV shows and movies. According to THX (and even worse SMPTE) (and this calculator), I would have to sit in a normal chair directly in front of the TV. An armchair would put me to far away LOL

 

I get the point that we are talking full immersion here, but for this I have my projector. Then we are talking up to 200" diagonal - usually I keep it down to around 120" ...

 

Just my 2 cents!

[dc2bluelight]

 

Most of what we watch is not THX movies- more often television shows from iTunes, Netflix, or Amazon.

Just for the benefit of the general forum reader, there really is no such thing as a THX movie. THX is not a "format", its a set of specifications for sound and video systems that also includes the room itself. The goal is to match the theater or home experience to the creative environment, to experience content "as the creator intended".

 

When you see the THX placard or trailer at a cinema, that theater has met THX performance standards including sound, acousics, ambient noise, picture quality, etc. When you see the THX logo on equipment, it has been tested and found to meet THX minimum standards for use in a particular application, generally targeting a general room size. When you see the THX logo on a disc, the content has been mastered to THX mastering standards. Not that content without the logo doesn't also meet the standards, but the bulk of content has never been through the THX certification process.

 

THX itself has contributed to the confusion with advertising like "Let's see it in THX", implying a format rather than an AV system that meets minimum requirements.

 

It's confusion on a ....well...a THX scale.

[sdolezalek]

I view the THX specification as trying to address what you need in order to feel engrossed or immersed in the film/TV content. If the screen is too small your mind clearly reads it as "coming from that box;" at larger sizes, higher resolution and potentially 3D your brain crosses over into thinking you might actually "be there." Much of what I focus on with my audio system is to achieve that same "being there" brain fooling sound quality. Accuracy (whether in music or video) is a different standard, as a big fuzzy screen on which the colors are actually a bit off may still fool your brain better than a 19 inch hi-res calibrated color monitor. My guess is the same may hold true in audio.

[dc2bluelight]

Engrossing and immersing is what content creators mix for.

 

I'll go with you right up to 3d, which has too many issues to be fully and universally immersive, the biggest of which is the disparity between accommodation distance perception and convergence distance perception. It's the big, unsolvable problem, and is responsible for 20% of the audience experiencing at least some discomfort. Discomfort boots you out of immersion. 3d in 24p is also a bit of an issue, and of course, there are many others.

 

I'll agree that, without going to extremes, big wins over small, but there's a fairly low limit to how much fuzzy can be tolerated until it bumps the viewer out of immersion. Remember that awful standard def 50" projection stuff? Advent Videobeam? Impressive for a while, then barely tolerable long-term. Over-enlarged images never work, as even anyone who sits in the front row of an IMAX film will tell you.

 

Theatrical movies, the major ones, are shot assuming a certain viewing angle and peripheral vision coverage, so their soundtracks are mixed for systems designed to compliment that viewing angle. That's the environment these folk work in. That's the dub stage for the final mix, etc. In the case of film, accuracy (or at least being faithful to the creative environment) and immersion pretty much go together for both picture and sound. The trick is to know how to scale it for a smaller home sized room. Not possible in every space.