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Looking for comparison: Ayre QB-9 to Weiss Dac2


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Hi Andrew,

 

I've been running Linux on a headless Fit-PC Slim into a Wavelength Cosecant V3 for a while now. I originally ran Squeezeslave on the Fit-PC with a very stripped down version of Ubuntu, but more recently I have been using MPD with a pipe output to Ecasound on a real time kernel on an otherwise stripped down version of Ubuntu 9.04.

 

One nice aspect of Squeezeslave and Squeezecenter is that the Squeezecenter server can be set to decompress FLAC on the server, streaming uncompressed PCM to the Fit-PC / Squeezeslave client. I like the MPD / Ecasound / real time kernel sound quality quite a bit, and playlist management is more convenient than Squeezecenter. However, with MPD, I have to mount the music library as a network drive, which means the Fit-PC decompresses FLAC as part of the playback process. Do you know if MPD supports full bandwidth streaming like Squeezecenter?

 

Alan

 

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Thanks for posting.

In answer to your q: Ummm I am not sure.

It most likely does. I've just never done it.

I, like you, simply point it at the volume I want it played from. Flac is always decompressed into Wav before playback so I'm not especially worried about this ie I don't care where it is done. The load is insignificant.

I like the look of the Fit PC Slim. Alot easier to configure than an Alix (which has to be done via SSH). Would be much of a muchness SQ wise I am sure.

Interestingly I had a heavily modded SB3 (linear p/s; pulse transformers, BNC blah blah) as a transport and thought that was good until I heard MPD out of an Alix even via USB..

Yeah piped output is cool huh! I didn't get onto that..figured one step at a time. Mind you I must admit to being too lazy to set it up alot of the time.

Funnily enough I don't get too excited by latency in playback..that is super low latency kernal's are all well and good for AD (where it really matters) but I don't care about eg 200ms for playback.

BTW aren't all Linux kernals real time?? Latency is the question.

Say how do you like your Wavelength Cosecant v3? They are just being imported here. Do they have enough "weight" to the music?

BTW does it matter, when you have an asynch dac, which OS/Platform the data is transfered from via USB? is bits= bits regardless once you have an async? Logically it cannot be so but I thought I would ask.

 

The relevance here (esp to this thread being hijacked (sorry to the OP)) is that it is somewhat pointless to compare a Firewire dac with proprietary drivers written for OS-X to any USB dac (asynch or otherwise) whose performance will differ markedly I would suggest accordingly to the platform and OS (in which I include the audio engine) with which it is operated. Clocking being, after all, only one part of the multi-factorial pathogenesis of jitter esp apparent in USB transfer of data.

 

Best Wishes

Andrew

 

 

Best Wishes

Andrew

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Good to see there is a reasonable upgrade path, although you're quite right that currently there doesn't seem to be much use for 24/192 capability. Anyway, your reputation for not leaving early adopters behind was one of the reasons I was happy to jump on the QB-9 as soon as it came out and I'm glad I did. It sounds great and hasn't caused me a single minute's hassle since first plugging in to my iMac. If only all other computer peripherals were this stable and easy to use! :)

 

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Glad you like your unit, Stretch!

 

The credit for the "plug'n'play" operation has to go to Wavelength Audio -- we license their code. They make tube DACs and we make a solid state one for people that don't want to mess around with tubes. Both brands have equally low jitter (as does the dCS which also features "asynchronous" USB transfers, as seen in the recent Stereophile review, albeit at 30x the cost!), but some people want tubes and others don't.

 

Chris has our unit for review here, as do the folks at Stereophile. We should be seeing a couple of reviews fairly soon, although I'm not sure that either one will compare our DAC against the Weiss DAC2, which was the original question...

 

Charles Hansen

Dumb Analog Hardware Engineer
Former Transducer Designer

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Not because I have any ideological commitment to any particular interface -- my last DAC was a FireWire model -- but simply because it is so ubiquitous and USB audio generally seems to be so poorly implemented in current-generation products. Let's not even start on S/PDIF. ;)

 

I haven't had a chance to listen to the Weiss unit in question either. The only other new thing (anywhere near the Ayre's price class) I've heard recently that really impressed was the Sonic Studio 302/Metric Halo ULN-2, which is another pro-audio FW box. But it's clunky for home use (requiring TRS cable terminations) and setup is a chore on the software side. Seems to me if we are going to draw more discriminating listeners away from physical media over to the computer audio side of the fence, the lure needs to be greater convenience with comparable quality and comparable ease of use.

 

All the best, and I'll be bugging you on Jan. 1 about that new receiver board!

 

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"The only other new thing (anywhere near the Ayre's price class) I've heard recently that really impressed was the Sonic Studio 302/Metric Halo ULN-2, which is another pro-audio FW box."

 

+1 for the ULN-2

 

You're right, there is a bit of setup involved in the software, but once properly setup, I've had no issues at all. As I recall, Firewire setup was a breeze. The Toslink setup (which I occasionally use for wireless streaming from Apple TV) was more of a challenge if I remember correctly, as it does double duty with the ADAT input on the 2D board.

 

Supposedly the ULN-8 has upped the ante quite significantly, albeit at a cost of $6k and further clunkiness in the form of db-25 output terminations.

 

Clay

 

 

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yeah, I've not heard it yet, but people whose (or is it who's?) ears I trust think that it's better than world class devices like the Prism Orpheus, Pacific Microsonics, etc., which would seem to make it reasonably cost competitive as a DAC only.

 

I can also benefit from the Mic pres and ADCs, if only I could see spending that much money for a piece of electronics. My ears don't justify that expense, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately.

 

Hopefully, Chris will review the Sonic Studio version of it.

 

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Would you kindly restate -

 

"think that it's better than world class devices like the Prism Orpheus, Pacific Microsonics, etc., which would seem to make it reasonably cost competitive as a DAC only."

 

I wish to make certain what you believe some people are claiming before making any comments.

 

Regards,

 

Tim Marutani

Emeryville, CA

 

 

 

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I hope Barrows is still reading this...

 

This is a fascinating thread. I've learned a lot, and it raises a lot of questions for me. Going back to the very top, Barrows says that his transport to DAC playback (BNC S/PDIF) beats his Mac to FF 400 to DAC (S/PDIF) playback. My impression is that he is interested in the Ayre and Weiss DACs because he thinks either of them will be a superior computer audio solution to what he has now. But why? Barrows suggests the poor jitter performance of the FF 400, at least that’s what I think he’s saying. Perhaps they will also be superior because they don’t convert to S/PDIF (if that’s the case). (Perhaps they are better DACs than his modified DACIII, but that seems beside the point because I think he'd be happy if his computer audio sounded as good as his transport.)

 

Here are the questions this raises in my mind:

 

Is the FF 400 the problem? Perhaps a different Firewire interface would do the trick. Alan Taffel might suggest you try the $300 Focusrite Saffire. There’s also the Konnekt 8 at a similar price, or the more expensive Weiss Vesta.

 

Is S/PDIF the problem? The interface is much maligned, and credibly so, and yet it seems to yield good results in your (and my) transport to DAC solution. Not only that, but those who are using Lynx and similar sound cards, such as our own Chris Connaker and TAS’s Robert Harley, are effectively going out to their BADAs via S/PDIF. (Isn’t AES/EBU just a balanced version of S/PDIF, or do I have that wrong?)

 

Is Mac the problem? I’m a dyed-in-the-wool Mac user, and I know the platform is very popular for computer audio, but I’ve seen some anecdotal evidence to suggest that a properly configured PC may yield better results sonically. The culprit may be Apple's Core Audio (hence Amarra) or it may not be the Mac per se but the player, Foobar 0.8.3 on Windows XP being the bee’s knees, or so I hear.

 

Is computer audio the problem? Ha! -- a difficult question to ask in this forum. Let’s set aside all of the many convenience benefits of computer audio, and the wave-of-the-future certainty of it, and the hi-res downloads, and just consider the sonics of 16/44.1 file playback. Many people around here and elsewhere say that their computer audio setup sounds better than any CDP or transport-DAC they have had. Or they say that it beats all but the very best transport-DAC solutions. But there are also some voices, albeit a bit more quiet, who feel that computer audio never quite measures up. Unfortunately, this has been my experience, but hope springs eternal and I keep throwing time (and money) at it in the belief that one day I will strike gold. Which is why I am so curious about this list of questions.

 

I’m sure the answer is combination of things and is not cut-and-dried in any case. But I'm having trouble moving forward until I have better clarity around the answers to these questions.

 

Dan

 

 

Mac Mini 5,1 [i5, 2.3 GHz, 8GB, Mavericks] w/ Roon -> Ethernet -> TP Link fiber conversion segment -> microRendu w/ LPS-1 -> Schiit Yggdrasil

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"Would you kindly restate -

 

"think that it's better than world class devices like the Prism Orpheus, Pacific Microsonics, etc., which would seem to make it reasonably cost competitive as a DAC only."

 

 

Tim,

 

i don't save links about this kind of stuff, so I'm working from memory here.

 

On two forums I follow, there's been much written about the perceived quality of the new ULN-8 by Metric Halo. One is gearslutz, and the other is Metric Halo's own forum. As an owner of a ULN-2, I read the latter. As you probably know, these forums are predominantly recording engineers, not audiophiles, and so, they're recommendations/declarations of their preferences do NOT tend to use the kind of subjective wording that audiophiles trade in.

 

There have been many, many favorable comparisons to world class recording devices (pre/ADC/DACs) on each forum. Prism and Pacific Microsonics are only two examples of such.

 

One gentleman whose opinions always resonate for me (being similar in cases where I have been able to do comparions) has expressed his opinions rather eloquently on multiple sites, including this one. One of his statements is that the Pacific Microsonics was his previous favorite, which has now been surpassed by the ULN-8. As a beta tester, he's had much experience with the Metric Halo device.

 

As for your interest in hearing what others have said before replying, I'm a little surprised. It's all just opinions here. I know that you're a proponent of the Pacific Microsonics equipment, but given that it's no longer made, and doesn't support 192Khz (as far as I know), and is very rarely available on the used market (due to quality and the decidedly small number of units made), I'm still not clear why you "wish to make certain what believe some people are claiming before making any comments."

 

Some people are 'claiming' that they prefer it to the PM gear (and other gear), and that "it's the closest they've ever heard to a live mike feed", for example. The phrase "game changer" has been used, that's what I remember, at least. Of course, others think differently.

 

All the best,

clay

 

 

 

 

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Labjr,

 

I don't disagree with you, but I think that the ULN-2 is probably as close as they will come.

 

It's only two channel. Most of their recording engineer clients are more likely to need MORE than the 8 channels in their ULN-8 than they are to need only the TWO channels in the ULN-2.

 

Sadly., the ULN-2 is NOT a two channel version of the ULN-8, and it's NOT just a DAC.

But it is a very good sounding device, and is cost competitive as a DAC only.

 

Apogee makes pro Firewire gear in more price ranges, including two channel DACs.

 

cheers,

clay

 

 

 

 

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Dan, to address your questions:

 

The RME Fireface products have a rather poor clock design relative to well designed audiophile products (although this design does give them excellent flexibility when used for their primary purpose, as a recording interface). They use a digitally synthesized clock frequency, which is adjustable over a wide range, rather than any kind of fixed clock. The specification for jitter RME gives is

SO/ROON/HQPe: DSD 512-Sonore opticalModuleDeluxe-Signature Rendu optical with Well Tempered Clock--DIY DSC-2 DAC with SC Pure Clock--DIY Purifi Amplifier-Focus Audio FS888 speakers-JL E 112 sub-Nordost Tyr USB, DIY EventHorizon AC cables, Iconoclast XLR & speaker cables, Synergistic Purple Fuses, Spacetime system clarifiers.  ISOAcoustics Oreas footers.                                                       

                                                                                           SONORE computer audio

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well barrows

with a Macbook your options are expanded considerably simply because many Pro AD/DA converters write excellent firmware for 1394EEE.

 

You aren't limited to usb. Which is a good thing because as a platform MacBooks + OS X + iTunes make a pretty poor USB platform from my experience. Remember there is alot more to jitter than just clocking. Indeed I would suggest that the single defining characteristic of USB audio is the platform (hardware/sw/os and audio engine) from which it comes.

 

Dac2 or Ayre QB9? I would think you would have to audition both and see which sound signature you like. The Dac2 is very well regarded and established. Multiple in's and out's. The Ayre is un-reviewed (as of yet) and has limited interface capacity ie only USB. Which limits re-sale as well.

 

If I was running Mac I would almost certainly choose a Weiss. Vintage Audio Labs have a demo one for sale for $2500. Full Warranty. It is the "best"? - who knows - at that end of the atmosphere there is no best just "different". It's no slouch that is for sure.

 

BTW another two "audiophile" (ie not Pro eg DAD etc) options are the Bryston and ARC Dac7; run both with a Lynx AES 16 and I am sure you would not be disappointed. BDA-1's are popping up on Audiogon for $1600 now. That with a AES 16 works out about the same as a Ayre QB9. Bryston make good gear.

 

Cheers

A

 

 

 

 

Best Wishes

Andrew

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It boils down to how well you like the Weiss and Ayre DACs and whether either of them equals or surpasses what you are getting with the Bel Canto -> PS Audio via S/PDIF. If not, then let's return to my list of questions.

 

I wonder if the other Firewire interfaces, such as the Focusrite or the Konnekt8, are better or worse than the Fireface in terms of clocks and jitter. Does anyone know? I'm dying to try Firewire.

 

Andrew, the Lynx AES16 is not an option with a MacBook nor with a Mac Mini, which is what I use. If it was, I'd have one feeding my Bryston. The Bryston, by the way, does not force asychronous upsampling (if I understand these things correctly).

 

Mac Mini 5,1 [i5, 2.3 GHz, 8GB, Mavericks] w/ Roon -> Ethernet -> TP Link fiber conversion segment -> microRendu w/ LPS-1 -> Schiit Yggdrasil

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a firewire tip from FMAK over at AudioAsylum from a discussion today on computer I/O I thought I'd throw into the mix, albeit slightly off tangent. In order to better isolate from the computer power-related noise/issues, disconnect the power pin of the firewire cable from your computer to the Weiss DAC (or other FW I/O or DAC device like AFI1, RME, etc.), either through a FW800/6pin to 4pin adapter (and appropriate cable like VRS/Ted's GoldX suggestion) or by opening the connector and pulling the power pin). I'll be giving this a try soon!

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

first, I just wanted to say hello and introduce myself. I was the one who started the ball rolling on the alix & mpd combo. I had been using PC Engine boards for my personal firewall at home, and when they started releasing the ALIX series with USB ports, well, I had a small idea...

 

second, a thanks to Andrew for the kinds words.

 

Just a few points and clarifications on the alix & mpd combo:

 

- mpd supports many music formats besides FLAC. You can visit the MPD wiki for more specific details. mpd 0.15 also currently support high resolution formats.

 

- configuration need not be done via ssh. there is a mini-itx alix available with vga output, if that makes one feel more confident. but using a program like Putty to access an alix via ssh is not overly difficult.

 

- if one wishes to be very thrifty you can use any old x86 pc (trash, thrift shop, school or government auction) to setup as a simple file server. If you Google FreeNAS you'll see that this free software will turn any standard PC into a high quality NAS that is *entirely* configurable via a web page and support, NTFS, NFS, samba, CFS, etc.

 

super cheap mpd/alix experimenters combo: if one wants to be even thriftier and would like to invest in the minimum amount of funds in the hopes of finding out if the alix is indeed the better sounding option, then you could get away with these minimum amount of parts:

 

alix

case (optional for experimenting)

12v adapter

large capacity compact flash card

 

these items should cost no more that approximately $130 USD.

 

-using a large capacity compact flash one can setup 2 separate partitions; one 512mb partition for OS and mpd, and the rest for your reference FLAC files. your mpd.config will point to the larger partition and thus obviate the need for a NAS configuration.

 

-since there is a very large community that uses these boards for wifi ap's, firewalls, etc., you could easily sell this board at auction on eBay for close to what you paid for it, if you find that the alix is not for you...

 

-the Swiss gentleman who setup the blog (http://cheap-silent-usb-linux-music-server.blogspot.com/) didn't have any Linux experience. with some gentle coaching by me and some intelligent use of Google he was up and running in a couple of days. he learned a lot too.

 

if there's enough interest, we could start a thread somewhere where people can get help in setup and configuration.

 

 

i'd be happy to answer any questions. i live in nyc, and if anybody wants to take a listen and/or bring their usb dac then shoot me an email.

 

nick l.

 

EDIT: sorry! the original poster was asking about DAC's and not about music servers. i came across this thread via Google thinking it was music server related. again, my apologies for hijacking!

 

 

 

 

 

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As far as I know, the OSX Amarra solution only reigns when judged against standard MS Windows playback solutions on the PC or iTunes on the MAC. I have not read any reports of users comparing Amarra directly against an optimized Linux box nor a CMP box. I don't have a MAC, so I can't make the comparison.

 

However, I am in the midst of comparing a low powered Fit-PC with a slimmed down version of Linux running MPD into Ecasound against a CMP / Cics Play box. The Fit-PC Linux solution has less glare and harshness in the upper midrange, and hence sounds more natural to me. However, I believe the difference in sound is more due to hardware than software. At some point soon I will make a dual boot Linux / CMP solution to run on the Fit-PC. Then I'll be able to compare the two software solutions on equal hardware.

 

Alan

 

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Please elaborate your requirements and specifications a bit more:

 

1. What software I/O are you planning to use in XP and OSx?

2. What hardware I/O are you planning to use?

3. Do you have plans for remote desktop or screen sharing?

4. Any thoughts regarding iPhone or ITouch control?

5. Any consideration regarding overall noise from the two computers?

6. Are you planning to use the computer for music only or also as a computer?

 

Regards,

 

Tim Marutani

Emeryville, CA

 

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building inexpensive servers and players ANYWHERE CLOSE to being about a comparison between the Ayre and the Weiss DACs??? I think i was one of the last to post that I actually had both DACs inhouse and heard them side by side.....probably also not relevant to the discussion? This thread is out of control.

 

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BTW, I noticed this cable on the Gold-X site. It does half the conversion, with flexibility to revert back to 6pin to 6pin, by dint of having adapters on each end which accept either 6pin or 4pin plugs (2 of each included).

 

https://www.firewiredirect.com/product/92/

 

you'd still need a 4pin female to 6pin male adapter.

 

I may get this myself, or just order the 6pin to 4pin cable, since I already have a 6pin to 6pin GoldX. At $15 for 2 meter cable, not exactly a major expenditure. :)

 

thanks

clay

 

 

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